Engine sound is better in Mono...
- Thread starter CoolColJ
- 35 comments
- 4,898 views
nomis3613
Premium
- 831
Yeah, I should have not been so lazy and just googled it to start with...
http://boardsus.playstation.com/t5/...-HD-and-Dolby-Pro-Logic-II-Guide/m-p/21480012
Sorry for hijacking the mono-audio thread with surround sound nonsense!!
- 1,155
- gtp_iLex
This is an interesting thread.
I'm tempted to state that it is not the phase cancellation you hear, but just a lousy effect to make a mono source stereo.
1. Phase cancellation is most apparent when a stereo signal is rendered mono before it's send to your speakers, or when a stereo signal is forced through a mono speaker (e.g. mixed before the speaker, which is usually the case).
2.In a decent stereo setup (with speakers spaced a fair distance apart) phase cancellation is less apparent.
3. Any sound outputted by your speaker in a normal (non very very good treated studio) room is subject to a certain amount of phase cancellation when the sound bounces off walls, ceiling etc. and mixes with the original signal. This phase cancellation happens regardless of the signal being mono or stereo.
4. On headphones each signal is 'injected' into the ear and there is no mixing of the signals before it enters your ears. In this case there is no phase cancellation. In this case a simple effect like the delay of one channel (which I doubt they use, since it can also give a directional component to the sound) will make the sound sound very stereo, but the harmonic content when switched to mono (mono SOURCE, not stereo source mixed to mono) shouldn't change.
So, if it's just phase cancellation, anyone using a mono TV should hear a huge difference in sound between the two settings, whereas anyone with a good stereo setup won't hear that much of a difference. People with headphones won't hear any significant change in harmonic content, just a mono version of the sound.
If it's some crappy stereo imager, everyone could/should hear the difference.
edit: if I find some time I'll make some sound examples.
I'm tempted to state that it is not the phase cancellation you hear, but just a lousy effect to make a mono source stereo.
1. Phase cancellation is most apparent when a stereo signal is rendered mono before it's send to your speakers, or when a stereo signal is forced through a mono speaker (e.g. mixed before the speaker, which is usually the case).
2.In a decent stereo setup (with speakers spaced a fair distance apart) phase cancellation is less apparent.
3. Any sound outputted by your speaker in a normal (non very very good treated studio) room is subject to a certain amount of phase cancellation when the sound bounces off walls, ceiling etc. and mixes with the original signal. This phase cancellation happens regardless of the signal being mono or stereo.
4. On headphones each signal is 'injected' into the ear and there is no mixing of the signals before it enters your ears. In this case there is no phase cancellation. In this case a simple effect like the delay of one channel (which I doubt they use, since it can also give a directional component to the sound) will make the sound sound very stereo, but the harmonic content when switched to mono (mono SOURCE, not stereo source mixed to mono) shouldn't change.
So, if it's just phase cancellation, anyone using a mono TV should hear a huge difference in sound between the two settings, whereas anyone with a good stereo setup won't hear that much of a difference. People with headphones won't hear any significant change in harmonic content, just a mono version of the sound.
If it's some crappy stereo imager, everyone could/should hear the difference.
edit: if I find some time I'll make some sound examples.
nomis3613
Premium
- 831
Hi iLex, yeah it could be the stereo effect causing the wierdness, but I personally believe it's that the exhaust note gets lost in the mix when you use the in-car/bumper views. Like Parnelli said ages ago, the exhaust is a lot louder when you use the reverse view.
My conspiracy theory is that it's something to do with the surround sound encoding (yes, even when you're in stereo mode). The exhaust note comes from the rear in surround mode, maybe there is a bug causing a lot of the exhaust is being sent to the non-existent rear channels even in "stereo" mode. The exhaust being louder when using the chase camera (where the exhaust will be in front of you) supports this theory. It may be something to do with the Dolby Pro-Logic II encoding (which "hides" the signal for the rear speakers within the stereo signal for a surround sound amp to decode this later).
I'll try this out in GT3, it would be interesting if someone could test out the mono/stereo in-car difference in another PS2 game (Gran Turismo are the only games I have!!)
If I may ramble off topic...
GT4 is often criticised for not having good sound effects. Aside from this mono bug, I reckon the sounds are excellently realistic. The problem is most people just want beefy sounding engines, instead Polyphony went for realism. At high speeds wind noise dominates, with a racing gearbox the whine of straight cut gears is heard and racing slicks increase road noise. These are not "nice" noises like the throb of a V8, but they are realistic. Accelerate a Buick Special from rest in 5th gear and you will hear the detail they have gone to: there are all kinds of rhythms and backfires that emerge at low revs. I think the sound effects in GT4 are excellent.
Since discovering (thanks to this thread!) that GT4 supports surround sound, I purchased some surround sound headphones (which use Dolby Headphone mathematics to replicate surround sound with headphones). I purchased them mainly to help with tuning (eg to hear if it was the front or rear tyres screeching under brakes) and they show a few limitations to the surround mix in GT4
- braking screech is modelled as a single source, so you can't tell whether it's coming from the front or rear
- same for screeching under cornering
- the front/rear location of the wheelspin sound is the same for FR and FF
But the benefits are you can tell whether the front or rear wheel hit the kerb, and wheelspin can clearly be identified as just a single wheel or both (which is great for tuning LSDs). Yes, the wheelspin thing is more to do with the better stereo separation of headphones but it wouldn't work if the surround used a mono rear channel.
</off-topic rant>
----------------
EDIT
I've totally changed my mind!!!
(GT3 does not have a mono/stereo option so it can't be compared)
I tried 3 different speaker sets on mono and stereo, changed a few parts and here's what I found:
Firstly, no-one has the right to complain about GT4 engine noise if they are running an FC gearbox! The whine of straight cut gears drowns out a lot of the engine noise, so you've gotta choose between good ratios or nice engine noise.
I started by running GT4 through my floorstanding speakers. There was no improvement in engine noise, both for 1) setting GT4 to mono and 2) leaving GT4 stereo but setting my amp to mono. Switching to rear view didn't make a difference, either. The engine sounded better on the external view, only because the wind noise was less.
Then I tested with the dodgy speakers inside the TV. Everything is using the "bumper cam" from now on. Engine noise was much better in mono. So now I think iLex is right, the poor stereo separation of cheap TV speakers (also the distance between the speakers is 1m compared with 2m for my floorstanding speakers) means you lose some of the engine noise in stereo. The exhaust noise (the good sounding bit) has a stereo effect, but the engine intake noise etc is central (mono). So if your speakers can't reproduce the stereo bits, the exhaust noise is lost so the engine sounds worse. Maybe its phase cancellation, maybe it's the way the brain interprets it, I don't know. Also, the rumble of wind noise has stereo effect so the exhaust note can get lost in this.
On to the headphones, the stereo exhaust was clearly heard. But since the exhaust noise is coming from either side and the rest of the engine noise is coming from the centre, it sounds a bit wierd IMHO. That the exhaust was clearly heard on headphones strengthened my theory that the improvement using mono is related to poor stereo separation of TV speakers.
My conspiracy theory is that it's something to do with the surround sound encoding (yes, even when you're in stereo mode). The exhaust note comes from the rear in surround mode, maybe there is a bug causing a lot of the exhaust is being sent to the non-existent rear channels even in "stereo" mode. The exhaust being louder when using the chase camera (where the exhaust will be in front of you) supports this theory. It may be something to do with the Dolby Pro-Logic II encoding (which "hides" the signal for the rear speakers within the stereo signal for a surround sound amp to decode this later).
I'll try this out in GT3, it would be interesting if someone could test out the mono/stereo in-car difference in another PS2 game (Gran Turismo are the only games I have!!)
If I may ramble off topic...
GT4 is often criticised for not having good sound effects. Aside from this mono bug, I reckon the sounds are excellently realistic. The problem is most people just want beefy sounding engines, instead Polyphony went for realism. At high speeds wind noise dominates, with a racing gearbox the whine of straight cut gears is heard and racing slicks increase road noise. These are not "nice" noises like the throb of a V8, but they are realistic. Accelerate a Buick Special from rest in 5th gear and you will hear the detail they have gone to: there are all kinds of rhythms and backfires that emerge at low revs. I think the sound effects in GT4 are excellent.
Since discovering (thanks to this thread!) that GT4 supports surround sound, I purchased some surround sound headphones (which use Dolby Headphone mathematics to replicate surround sound with headphones). I purchased them mainly to help with tuning (eg to hear if it was the front or rear tyres screeching under brakes) and they show a few limitations to the surround mix in GT4
- braking screech is modelled as a single source, so you can't tell whether it's coming from the front or rear
- same for screeching under cornering
- the front/rear location of the wheelspin sound is the same for FR and FF
But the benefits are you can tell whether the front or rear wheel hit the kerb, and wheelspin can clearly be identified as just a single wheel or both (which is great for tuning LSDs). Yes, the wheelspin thing is more to do with the better stereo separation of headphones but it wouldn't work if the surround used a mono rear channel.
</off-topic rant>
----------------
EDIT
I've totally changed my mind!!!
(GT3 does not have a mono/stereo option so it can't be compared)
I tried 3 different speaker sets on mono and stereo, changed a few parts and here's what I found:
Firstly, no-one has the right to complain about GT4 engine noise if they are running an FC gearbox! The whine of straight cut gears drowns out a lot of the engine noise, so you've gotta choose between good ratios or nice engine noise.
I started by running GT4 through my floorstanding speakers. There was no improvement in engine noise, both for 1) setting GT4 to mono and 2) leaving GT4 stereo but setting my amp to mono. Switching to rear view didn't make a difference, either. The engine sounded better on the external view, only because the wind noise was less.
Then I tested with the dodgy speakers inside the TV. Everything is using the "bumper cam" from now on. Engine noise was much better in mono. So now I think iLex is right, the poor stereo separation of cheap TV speakers (also the distance between the speakers is 1m compared with 2m for my floorstanding speakers) means you lose some of the engine noise in stereo. The exhaust noise (the good sounding bit) has a stereo effect, but the engine intake noise etc is central (mono). So if your speakers can't reproduce the stereo bits, the exhaust noise is lost so the engine sounds worse. Maybe its phase cancellation, maybe it's the way the brain interprets it, I don't know. Also, the rumble of wind noise has stereo effect so the exhaust note can get lost in this.
On to the headphones, the stereo exhaust was clearly heard. But since the exhaust noise is coming from either side and the rest of the engine noise is coming from the centre, it sounds a bit wierd IMHO. That the exhaust was clearly heard on headphones strengthened my theory that the improvement using mono is related to poor stereo separation of TV speakers.
Last edited:
- 2,529
- Alton, Illinois
- big_noobowski924
Setting your amp to mono with out setting your game to mono will only degrade your sound more if I'm not mistaken. But, Im a guitarits not an audiophile. But, I know stereo chorus is just a chorus if you have an amp that only has one speaker and doesnt have a stereo setting.
I think. If I'm wrong I'll admit I'm a 
nomis3613
Premium
- 831
Actually it's a hifi amp, so it is stereo normally (one speaker each side of the TV). Actually, the point of this thread is that yes mono should sound worse, but sometimes it actually makes the engine sound better.
I'm not meaning to call you a, but maybe you need to try wading through the thread again! 
It's heavy stuff at times, so if you've got any questions feel free to ask.
I'm not meaning to call you a
, but maybe you need to try wading through the thread again! It's heavy stuff at times, so if you've got any questions feel free to ask.
