Equal Balance Between Driving Sim and Racing Sim

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JohnBM01

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Once again, I am concerned. Going on its Tenth Anniversary, PD and their little baby Gran Turismo have prided themselves as being the Real Driving Simulator. Give or take gripes from fans and veterans of the series, GT's done quite well. What you're mostly doing is racing, however. No problem, right? To some, it IS a problem. Some people likely believe that just because the core of GT is about driving, there should be a bigger emphasis on racing. Super-critical people will believe that as much racing as you're doing, that GT fails in the department of actual racing. People would like things like purchasing spare tires and stuff... just looking for the ultimate racing experience so that the gamer doesn't have to be a professional (or even amateur) race car driver to know what real racing is all about. This thread isn't a debate of the "Real Driving Simulator" slogan. Instead, is it possible for Gran Turismo 5 to offer an experience to please both sim driving and sim racing fans? That's right. Killing two birds with one stone. Can it happen? Offer your views, but let me begin with mine.

With all due respect to games like GTR and the ToCA Race Driver series, I don't want Gran Turismo to be a ToCA or GTR clone. I like the mix of driving and competitive racing. There's something you need to remember. You can be your own fan of a certain game or game. How you like your game is going to vary when meeting up with someone else who likes the same game or genre. What that person will want to suggest for a sequel will vary between something simple to something almost outlandish and outside of the game's/genre's character. As a fan of the GT series, I've played Pro Race Driver (horrible AI - worst in any racing game I've played) and ToCA Race Driver 2. Much like my thread asking if there can be a compromise for more unforgiving racing/driving physics, it could be possible to give hardcore racing fans what they want, while also giving those more into driving what they want.

I generally don't know what corporates a game that is prideful of its driving dynamics in addition to being a great game on the racing front. I would like to see a compromise for this and have both driving and sim fans get what they want. My deal has been about not what I want, not what friends of mine want, but what everyone wants. I think GT is a game we can all appreciate. But then, we are all responsible for wondering what would make the next GT game in the series better than the last, maybe even MUCH better. So that's why I do all of this. I do all of this so that I can know along with everyone else about exactly what would make as many people happy as possible. So GTPlanet, is it possible to have greater concentration on driving simulation and racing simulation without leaning too much on either side?
 
How about a possibility to drive your car to the racetrack? You get a startingpoint a few miles from the track, and drive to it. Traffic isn´t necessary, but certainly a bonus.
 
I don't se the need in that tbh, with regards to John's original post, he makes some very good points. I think they need to increase the focus on the racing aspect. Imho I think the driving simulator tag has been an excuse to poor AI small grids and a generally non-existant level of immersion into the actual race. The drivings good, but the racings been crap. You can increase the immersion into a race and keep thedriving good, I think they should have more road type tracks, like Capri and Amalfi in GT4, thoes were my two fave track for driving on in GT4. At the same time though, for the big racing events they should have competitive AI, they should have a proepr in car camera and they should have a flag system in place for reckless driving and cutting the track too much. Keep the open ended ness of the game, keep the ability to have some evets where you can race what you want, keep the series and single race structures but just improve the immersion. Off the track, I think they could get more technical with the racing team aspect, I've put forward idea's before where you can manage the team to a degree, the only thing with that is, it won't appeal to everyone. Which would say to me, include team managment, but have it so that if you don't want to get into it, you don't have to. To build up to the best team with the fastest tye changes ect will require managment, but it's not a neccecity to win the game with. Thats one idea for off the track immersion for thoes that want it. To me the driving simulation is simply, the cars handling, the physics of the game, the racing simulation is the immersion, the AI, the sizes of the grids ect. I think the two go hand in hand very well. If people want to just win every event first time, simply offer players the ability to select a difficulty level when they first start and easy can be easy, meduim, what it is in GT4 and hard, harder than it is in GT4. That'd suit me and I think a good number of other players.
 
Team666
How about a possibility to drive your car to the racetrack? You get a startingpoint a few miles from the track, and drive to it. Traffic isn´t necessary, but certainly a bonus.
sry but I hate that idea! i hate every ''freeroam'' ideas... keep this to nfsu or some ****. Gran Turismo is Gran Turismo and Gran Turismo is a racing game...
 
I don't like the idea of just driving places or around.... if they're gonna have street driving, they might as well make a street racing game aside from GT... there we can run from cops, race dudes, and listen to rap the whole time, while or neons blink, and our rims shine.

Driving/racing sim? what's really the difference here? the only thing I can see seperating them is how hard it is to win, in this instance, since it's not like we have free roam here. I think if you simply improve the AI, good racing will follow, and that's clearly a necessity.
A physics upgrade to realistic would be super, too
 
To be honest, I had more fun racing against the AI in GT2 and GT3 than I ever did in GT4. Maybe its because my driving skills have improved over the years that I've played GT games, but GT4's AI isn't just dumb, but uncompetitive as well. I remember reading on the PlayStation website when people were allowed to ask Taku Imasaki (US GT4 Producer) questions, he said that the AI was kept passive to please a specific audience. I guess he means non-gamers and casual gamers. So if he wants to please those folks and GT fans, PD will need to provide the option for players to have smarter AI or even adjustable AI.
 
Racing in the grantursimo series is a major item that just hopefully will be adressed with GT5 on the PS3. I think that most of us agree that GT5 will have maybe up to 20 cars on the track for some races. That alone in my opinion will make it feel much more like a racing game. We all know that the A.I. is almost very poor and needs fixed.

Two player mode in the GT series was okay, but GT4 is the worst, not having replay save or single view replay has really stripped that mode. For GT5, I would like to see first and foremost the single screen replay in two player mode. Secondly, you should be able to race other A.I. cars in two player mode. I want the ability to change races settings when you pick the track, mainly number of laps. I also want the ability, that after race is over you can keep same cars and start differnt race. There are so many simple things that they could do, to really make two player mode so much better. You could even have like a party mode, where say 8 players or whatever pick their cars, then have elimination races, until one person is the ultimate winner. With the way GT4 is set-up, is there really a need for arcade mode, two players could just go to the family cup area in sim mode.

Simulation mode is good, but could so easily be so much better. Make tracks random in the events, make number of laps random etc. The fact you can not race some of the cars in GT4 is simply stupid. I would like to see more variety of events in GT4. I do not know about the rest of you but a lot of cars, have only maybe 6 races or less that they can enter. I do not know about most of you but I do not really like the races being restricted my country or continent. I also think that the indivudual manafactors races are rather boring. I would rather see for instance the American Race Series expanded or maybe divided up amongst horsepower. You could have amuater, stock, race, pro, and maybe super-pro divisions for just about any race series. Let us set the number of laps to run in the family cup races. I would like to be able to buy multiple parts and then check out so that the game only saves one time. I would also like to be able to buy race packages, I am sure that lots of people by all the tune-up parts that they can and do it at the same time, with race pakages this would be much simpler process. Also I want the ability to save in endurance ( every 25% ), also I would like to be able to do a race series, and then do some other races and finish the race series later.

The ideal of Career Mode is a great one, but one that I doubt will be implemented. I think they could somehow sort of have the sim mode thats is mixed in with sim mode. I would love to see a greater mix of race classifications, expand trucks, add some 4x4 races, short track races, short dirt track races, cross country races etc.

I am counting on the online mode to be great, even though I have never played in PS2 games online yet. If they get that right then, most other things will not matter to much.
 
This has been the point I've tried to make, and Live4speed has just about the right idea. Someone would say that the emphasis on driving and not racing is why the actual RACING aspect seems dull to people. For most of us GT gamers, you're tempted to race these babies. Many don't care about driving. They just want to race. Okay. Now how do you make it happen? And can it be done in a way which stays in-bounds of the Gran Turismo atmosphere? Could it be possible to balance all of this so that the gamer can equally enjoy real driving and real racing in one game?

I actually like Live4speed's ideas in Post #3. Do you agree, or do you think more can be done to enhance the racing aspect without fully making it a hardcore racing sim? Carry on with the discussion. Offer your ideas on how it can be done to satisfy the hardcore driving audience with the hardcore racing audience, and have something to which both sides can agree and love in the next Gran Turismo.
 
I think that most of the elements are in GT4 that could be used to make the game feel more like it has a career feeling to it. The game keeps track of days, cash, points, and even a daily entry of all major activities. I have not really played that many games like TOCA or the Nascar race series, but have some ideals that would help enhance the Race / Career experience. I think it would be possibly to incorporate the free-roam GT mode with a partial race simulation mode by doing a major overhall on the way the races are grouped together. My recommendation would be to have race series for as many groups of cars as possible. Then may short race series ( 6 races of 5 to 15 laps ), medium race series ( 10 races, 15 - 50 laps ), long race series ( 20 - 30 races of 50 or more laps ). I think that tires and fuel should cost money, races should have entry fees, maybe have race league membership fees, give us a lot more options in the pits durring a race. With all of the billboards and real life companies that sponser the game, maybe adding some sort of simple sponsership logic into the game would not be that hard. Damage, if finally included would also give a major game enhancement. Hopefully GT5 will finally bring the sounds to live of the cars. There was a GT web site that teased of the ability to start of a car, I think that would be a very nice addition to do that why looking for a car in your garage and while testing etc. It may be hard to do, but a career mode and GT mode could be blended together in my opinion. Another feature that would be needed for a career type of mode to work would be paint shop and race bodies. Maybe "A" spec could be replaced with championship points. The points are earned durring each race series, but points are earned in dirrent ways, pole position, fastest lap, most laps lead, record laps etc. Mechanical failures would also be a nice feature, if oil has not been changed for such n such time, engine could start to have parts break, break fade, flats, random engine break downs which occur more often depending on how old and milage. Lots of people want the ability to swap engine and other parts, I believe that would be something that would be hard to do. Other enhancements that would be nice would be better phyics which I believe would need implemented if they add crash modeling.
Even if a race series was not implemented, most of what was mentioned above could be done to give the player a more realistic driving experience. I want to have record laps recorded automatically at any race, and classified by horsepower etc. Lets say I have a 69 corvette fully modified at 600 hp, then a record in that car would go on a few list that it fits in two. I want to be able to see a list of all the parts that I have baught for my car and the total price of the car including all upgrades. It would also be nice to keep track of the total ammount of money that you have won in a certain car. If damage is included in GT5, I will most likely be buying and selling cars a lot more often.
For are garage, I want to be able to see a thumbnail image of cars or, maybe background image of the car as you highlite the name. Ability to save sorted list would also be nice, and maybe custom folders. Sorry to write so much, guess my main focus or want is that all the loose ends be fixed and the game just continue to be expanded with more and more cars but be as flawless as possible. I would say with a few tweaks and small fixes hear and there that GT5 should be an incredible experience.

 
I've decided to revive this topic after I've recently rented "ToCA Race Driver 3." This is the latest installment of Codemasters' long-running racing game series that pits the gamer into intense motorsport competition. Included to this game is the usage of flags as well as MANY, MANY different types of racing. The key component to the game is the World Tour, but I've mostly done Simulation Mode as well as Pro Career races. My primary criticism is that I don't really like comparing GT4 to any ToCA. That is because I've seen the ToCA series more as a hardcore racing game rather than a sim of driving. I'd actually prefer a mix of regular street car competition and hardcore racing. I just don't really like a pure racing deal for GT, or even a heavier emphasis of racing so that just driving around street cars is obsolete or rare. The GT series was never really just about race cars or competitive racing, even though that's the meat of the game.

I just here here wondering if it's possible to put in a deeper racing emphasis to maybe win over the respect of more hardcore sim racing types. Even with ToCA RD 3 being out, is it still possible for Gran Turismo to be tweaked better on the racing front (amateur and pro) to win the respect of a few more racing game fans (especially GTR types)?
 
I think it could. That's why I proposed having a Career Mode that was like having an actual racing career, which took you all the way from a young dude with the urge to drive and a good car, to the pro racing circuits in whatever field you wanted to enter. This is sounding a lot like the structure of Toca 3. But I would like Gran Turismo 5 to keep the other modes of play which made it such a blast to play and own from the start. Keep Arcade and GT Mode, those are awesome, but add in Season and Career Mode, where you can race for a full season for the championship, or race for a virtual lifetime, for as long as you want.
 
Tenacious D
I think it could. That's why I proposed having a Career Mode that was like having an actual racing career, which took you all the way from a young dude with the urge to drive and a good car, to the pro racing circuits in whatever field you wanted to enter. This is sounding a lot like the structure of Toca 3. But I would like Gran Turismo 5 to keep the other modes of play which made it such a blast to play and own from the start. Keep Arcade and GT Mode, those are awesome, but add in Season and Career Mode, where you can race for a full season for the championship, or race for a virtual lifetime, for as long as you want.

that sounds like something that would please alot of people, including myself. although i have played ToCA 2 and 3, im not half as impressed with them as i am with any of the GT series. but, GT does need to improve to include more of a fan base. and, as stated earlier, the AI needs to have a switch to be able to make it more agressive to us "above average" GT'ers.
 
live4speed
Imho I think the driving simulator tag has been an excuse to poor AI small grids and a generally non-existant level of immersion into the actual race.

I never thought of it that way... :lol: 👍

I think a balance between a driving sim and racing sim could be a very great thing, but instead of striving for such a balance, GT4 seems more like a cross between the drawbacks of both driving sims and racing sims...there aren't any unrestricted point-to-point roads to drive on, yet you don't have a full racing grid with all of the ambience of a real race.

A balanced driving/racing sim game would offer races that immerse you into the experience like TOCA Race Driver 3, but also offer sprints on country roads with traffic here and there, a la Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed.
 
Uhhh.... no, I don't want street racing in traffic in Gran Turismo. Don't bring in that nonsense from Burnout, NFS, Tokyo Extreme, TDU or Project Gotham. Let them have that weird stuff. Keep Gran Turismo about Racing.
 
Do you guys remember the first Need for Speed? They had point A to point B races complete with traffic... However, this isn't the kind of behaviour PD are trying to get people into. However, having these point to point races with no traffic would really creat a great driving experience for people. Using real roads. People could then say "I got from Austin to San Antonio in X amount of time..." That could give people something to really compare their cars and the cars they drive in the game as well as enhance the "driving" experience of the game.

As for racing... It's so simple... BRING BACK THE HP RESTRICTIONS!!! That and add more cars to the field. That's all they need really... It's that simple. And flags... come on this last one is sorely over looked...

As a side note... No one really want to know what it's like to simply drive these cars... No one is out there only doing 50 mph out there. They want to know what it's like to go balls out in the cars they own in real life, but don't want to a) Get fined/jailed b) Get killed c) Hurt/Kill others, doing so... Racing is driving... It's that simple really...
 
I'm trying to think of a point to point race that isn't a Rally event and I'm falling asleep trying, but I do like the idea. It works well in Forza, idiot bots aside.
 
The best thing about the GT series is that it can be many different things to different people - and it does these things well. If drifting is your thing - you can drift. If driving around in your favourite road car is what you want to do - you can do it. If spending endless hours hot-lapping The Ring floats your boat - then knock-yourself-out. BUT at the end of the day 95% of the game takes place as competitive motorsport.

Its the motorsport part of the game IMO that lets the series down, especially with the 'driving/racing game' competition getting so much stronger. This 'racing' element to the series is practically the same now as it has been since the very first game - its not been moved on at all. Although the A.I. on TRD3 can be quite or very frustrating at times - you still feel like you are in a race with other sentient beings who want to beat you rather than GT's mindless drones that could be competing in a parallel universe for all the competition they offer.

Toca Race Driver 3 would be half the game it is with a field of only 6 - but it hasn't, it has upto 20 and that makes a huge difference. GT is starting to include longer circuits and much lengthier races and with only 5 competitors you end up with some very lonely events - do a 24hr race on the 14 mile Nurburgring and you could be spending hours without ever seing another car!

I don't think that PD need to alter the 'mix' of the game for its next episode - it just needs to improve certain aspects of the race experience to satisfy those of us who might be starting to wander from the fold. Since i bought TRD3 and Enthusia at the beginning of this year i've not had GT4 in my PS2 at all - i've just found TRD3's racing and Enthusia's handling model more compeling than anything a well used GT4 can offer me at this moment in time. GT games are spending less and less time in my Playstations than they used to do - and that's because the competition is getting more sophisticated whilst GranTurismo just gives us more of the same.
 
TheCracker
The best thing about the GT series is that it can be many different things to different people - and it does these things well. If drifting is your thing - you can drift. If driving around in your favourite road car is what you want to do - you can do it. If spending endless hours hot-lapping The Ring floats your boat - then knock-yourself-out. BUT at the end of the day 95% of the game takes place as competitive motorsport.

Its the motorsport part of the game IMO that lets the series down, especially with the 'driving/racing game' competition getting so much stronger. This 'racing' element to the series is practically the same now as it has been since the very first game - its not been moved on at all. Although the A.I. on TRD3 can be quite or very frustrating at times - you still feel like you are in a race with other sentient beings who want to beat you rather than GT's mindless drones that could be competing in a parallel universe for all the competition they offer.

Toca Race Driver 3 would be half the game it is with a field of only 6 - but it hasn't, it has upto 20 and that makes a huge difference. GT is starting to include longer circuits and much lengthier races and with only 5 competitors you end up with some very lonely events - do a 24hr race on the 14 mile Nurburgring and you could be spending hours without ever seing another car!

I don't think that PD need to alter the 'mix' of the game for its next episode - it just needs to improve certain aspects of the race experience to satisfy those of us who might be starting to wander from the fold. Since i bought TRD3 and Enthusia at the beginning of this year i've not had GT4 in my PS2 at all - i've just found TRD3's racing and Enthusia's handling model more compeling than anything a well used GT4 can offer me at this moment in time. GT games are spending less and less time in my Playstations than they used to do - and that's because the competition is getting more sophisticated whilst GranTurismo just gives us more of the same.

Amen!!!👍 👍

I played GT1 until GT2 Came out... Played it until GT3 came out. Played it until I got all the cars... Only had to wait another couple of months and GT4 was there... Finnished it and got into tuning as I'd already did everything else in about two months...
 
I'm going to get Enthusia this weekend and see what all the enthusiasm is about for this game. But upgrading a car by changing a number 1 to a number 2 doesn't really appeal to me. I think I'll enjoy Colin McRae Rally 2005 and Forza a lot more. And of course, GT4, but we'll see.
 
Tenacious D
I'm going to get Enthusia this weekend and see what all the enthusiasm is about for this game. But upgrading a car by changing a number 1 to a number 2 doesn't really appeal to me. I think I'll enjoy Colin McRae Rally 2005 and Forza a lot more. And of course, GT4, but we'll see.

Good luck getting an American version of CMR/05... I've yet to see one on Ebay... Unless you're chipped, you'll have a hard time... However, if you do find some, let me know please!!!
 
At any rate, it's failry easy to see that there realy needs to be something done to fix the racing aspect of the game. I mean really, as nice as it is to say that it's a driving sim, the driving you do, as was said before, is 90% on the form of races. I mean, asside from the missions and licences, how else do you get cars/cash? You race... Every event you do is either called a race or a meet.

So what there needs to be for racing/driving sim aspects of this game.

SIM:

-Speed limits.
-Traffic.
-Point to point events.
-Weather and time progression.
-Intersections.

Racing:

-Flags.
-Full grids.
-Racing team design.
-Career mode.
-Class/Race restrictions.
 
greenlightning
Simulation mode is good, but could so easily be so much better. Make tracks random in the events, make number of laps random etc. The fact you can not race some of the cars in GT4 is simply stupid. I would like to see more variety of events in GT4. I do not know about the rest of you but a lot of cars, have only maybe 6 races or less that they can enter. I do not know about most of you but I do not really like the races being restricted my country or continent. I also think that the indivudual manafactors races are rather boring. I would rather see for instance the American Race Series expanded or maybe divided up amongst horsepower. You could have amuater, stock, race, pro, and maybe super-pro divisions for just about any race series.
Amen to that! The unracable cars are rediculous. I remember winning a orange Prowler, and looking forward to racing one of my favorite cars in agame finally, but noo... They can model up to six FGTs, which are open wheel and open cockpit cars with exposed suspension, but you can't race a soft top with only 2 semi-open wheels? And of couse the Caterham 7 screwed many players out of $40,000 permantly (thanks a lot, autosave:rolleyes:)

Secondly, I've never liked (with the exception of a few) any of the on-make races. Don't force me to race a car I do not like, would never buy/race otherwise, and will only use once, just for game completion. Some cars like the Subaru 360 are useless outside of the one-makes unless you pour tens of thousands of dollars into them, and the races they are good at yeild very little money back. Some say "That's not a problem, you can win $250,000 or more within 15 minutes time with the right races, money isn't an issue." I don't care. I don't like buying a car and having it give me a net loss of money after racing it many times and selling it. I would prefer a lower number of one-make races, replaced by regular races! The country halls in GT4 were too short in my opinion, and not all countries were raceable. At the very least, rework the prizes of one-makes! Win the Subaru 360 race, and what do you get? ANOTHER 360! YAYYY!!!!! (****ers...)
 
I want you to use your imagination for a moment. Imagine that you had an old scale where you have two trays for weighing something down. Put on one of the scales- GT5 as a Racing Sim. Put on the other scale- GT5 as a Driving Sim. These are merely concepts that have no volume or measurement. But imagine that you wanted the scales to tip over one side over another. Do you want "GT5 as a Racing Sim" to outweigh "GT5 as a Driving Sim?" Do you want "GT5 as a Driving Sim" to outweigh "GT5 as a Racing Sim?" Or would you want to balance both sides? If you think the best thing to happen for GT is a racing sim over a driving sim, you're likely not my target. If you think the best thing to happen for GT is a driving sim over a racing sim, you're 50% my target. Which leaves the middle ground- my other 50% target. The reason why you'd be my primary target is because I want you to picture Polyphony Digital completely changing their philosophy and focus of the GT series for GT5 so that the Racing Sim types can get their fill. But will a change in enhanced racing focus destroy GT's current formula, or is GT's current formula so flawed that they should have thought of a hardcore Racing Sim deal a long time ago?

I initially had this lined up as a new thread, but I decided to just simply revive this thread to discuss something that's sort of a hot topic in regards to Gran Turismo in general heading into GT5. You're free to continue this discussion if you wish.
 
Do you want "GT5 as a Racing Sim" to outweigh "GT5 as a Driving Sim?" Do you want "GT5 as a Driving Sim" to outweigh "GT5 as a Racing Sim?" Or would you want to balance both sides?

The scale for GT right now IMHO tips way too much on the driving side... I've been tuning these cars for almost a decade since GT came out, and in my opinion, there's little to change on them. So I'd go for the racing side. Not that PD needs to change anything on the driving side formula, I'm happy with the way it is. It's just that we're missing a lot on the racing side. 👍 👍

More races based on real events (of course with a bit of creative liberties so PD doesn't have to bother with licensing) would help. And more real world tracks. I know there are a couple of Australian and British tracks which I would enjoy having there. A real Rally course too, and not just a closed rallycross circuit. This will definitely give variety. Or maybe a touge track like Dragon range on Enthusia. I hope they give room for downloadable content so they can come out with new tracks (or new versions of them) to keep the game fresh:sly:
 
I guess I'd be in the middle myself, since driving vs racing means semi-pro/enthusiast vs professional racing. I love how the pro race cars handle in Gran Turismo, but most of the joy of the game is collecting, modding and racing street cars we'd all love to own. But I would hope that Kaz wedgies in a serious race conversion for GT5 so we can set that balance however we want.
 
-> I like the idea to separate GT Mode and Career Mode, so this can alieviate all the frictions between driving sim and racing sim altogether. Heres what I've stacked up:

GT Mode:
- Staying true to be the "Real Driving Simlator" mantra.
- All production, concept, and race cars on hand.
- All one-way type tracks (like Kaido Battle, Initial D, Battle Gear; not NFS, MC type tracks) with no traffic and those NFS-type enviroments, to experience that driving sim feel all out. Like for example, Angeles Crest in California or parts of HWY-1 in coastal California.
- Retains all the goodness of past GT's.
- They're will be races still but it will be smaller scale events (no 24hr or Super GT for example) for casual and amateur racers.
- Access to all the tracks but with minimal crowds/spectators.

GT Career Mode
- This where the "Real Driving Simulator" takes to a whole different level.
- Strictly race-prepped cars with no sponsors (sponsors will come in as you progress in the game).
- Customizable race suits and helmets (like in Tourist Trophy).
- Tracks will be limited to full-on race tracks (like Grand Valley, Trail Mountain, Nur, Sarthe, etc.), with street-based road course (like Long beach, R246, etc.), but no open street course (like Akina, Angeles Crest, PCH, etc.).
- All big-name races will be there, DTM, Touring Cars, Super GT, Open Wheel, and Endurance.
- All the goodies from other race simulators, but far more better.

(:
 
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