Equal Balance Between Driving Sim and Racing Sim

[Tenacious D]

I've been lobbying for this idea since I posted about it back in March of last year. Some people really like it, some don't care for it, but if it was included in GT5, I have a feeling that people would get addicted to the true sports aspect, and watching their progress through the season with full stat tracking. And even if it was included, GT Mode would be there for those who didn't want to deal with a full season of true-to-life racing.

I do think though that the other serious elements like the endurance races and high performance racecar events should remain in GT Mode, for those who don't want to face the prospect of anywhere from 40-80 races in a season, depending on the racing league. Not including them in GT Mode would give that incentive to get into Career Mode and give it a whirl. Oh well, I guess we'll see what's up for GT5 by the Tokyo Game Show in the fall. I am hoping for some juicy news in GT land.

 

[Uncle Harry]

What we say here will not effect the game that PD has mapped out for GT5.
I think we all agree that the scales will be in favour of a driving experience rather than a racing experience.
Do we need the full race experience in a GT game?
If the 16 car + starting grid makes it, I hope there are no 2 lap races without qualifying.
The larger grid would be the first step to enhance the balance to a racing experience.
A more focused race year where you have to run 20 races in the same car would also change the balance.
A spec points need re working. I am not sure if they favour the driving experience . They certainly do not add to the race experience.
Maybe Johns Balanced approach could work.
Keep the current arcade and simulation modes without the harder races. Move the harder races accross to a career mode that progresses up from easy 1st season (FWD hatches) up to a full on 10th season for the F1 cars.
The career mode would move you along on a year to year bases, your next car would be based on how well you went in the previous year. You could also have the option off repeating that year again.

 

[Tenacious D]

So why do you join in the wishing Uncle Harry?

I know, wishing in these threads is fun. But, I do wonder if there aren't people at Polyphony who aren't looking over boards like ours. Not for ideas, I'm sure they even have notes about things that haven't occured to us yet. But to validate their own.

Like, suppose Kazunori has been thinking of having a career mode, either like one in the Toca series or one modelled to one extent or another in real life. He might be interested in how many people have heard of it and their reactions. I'm happy over the positive reactions many of the guys here have had about our Career Mode ideas, and maybe Kaz is too. So maybe months to a year ago he decided to go ahead and implement that in GT5.

Take damage. There are maybe 20 visible hardcore "gotta have damage" types on these boards, and maybe a hundred who chime in from time to time, but that's out of a population of over 80,000. Suppose Kaz's requirement for damage modelling goes beyond GTR's, right into car maker damage model territory, but suppose implementing that might add another year or two to the release date. He notes how many people are apparently more interested in getting GT5 no matter what over those that insist it has to have damage. He also notes, as do the other Sony execs, how many people have stated they won't buy a PS3 until a Gran Turismo game in some form or fashion is available for it. They also note that a much cheaper XBox360 will be available for the holidays with a freaking big game line-up with many A List titles, including a much hyped Forza 2 with a force feedback wheel controller.

I'm sure they're thinking of that right now, and their options.

- Drop damage modelling until a patch can me perfected, and get GT5 available as soon as possible.

- Put together a GT HD game with as much of GT5's content as possible, including a working online mode, extensive gameplay options and a possible simple damage implementation.

- Just wait it out and let the other PS3 driving games like Motorstorm and Ridge Racer (eww) tide people over till GT5 is perfect.

I have a feeling that they have people checking the pulse of the potential PS3 buying community, including boards like GT Planet, because with a price of up to $600 and stiff competition from the 360 and Wii, they'll need to leverage as much interest in the PS3 as they possibly can.

So do they care what we think? I bet they do. Can it affect game content like what they put in GT5? In its own way, maybe.

 

[JohnBM01]

I decided to bring back this discussion here. I think someone was talking about that since GT isn't a pure racing sim, its value is declined. I'm not too fond of a pure racing sim experience for GT games because I think many of them are too linear. At least you have your choice of what to do in GT games. GT4 even let you do some things away from racing like listening to the soundtrack or take pictures of your car in amazing locales. I even just look at some replays or make the B-Spec racer do some free runs in Arcade Mode. So there's always something else to do. It isn't like you race and nothing else. I don't think value is diminished simply because it isn't ToCA Race Driver 3 or GTR.

In talking about differences thereof, I do think the racing aspect needs to be enhanced so that it doesn't really seem like it's you versus nameless drones. So this is a discussion I want to start:

Does the fact that the Gran Turismo series isn't a hardcore racing sim (like GTR) diminish the game's overall value? Explain your reasoning.

Have at it, players.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, let's say "isn't a hardcore racing sim (like GTR) to date." We don't know what GT HD is going to be like.

I know the PC fanatics will probably never give Gran Turismo more than a passing nod even on the megapotent PS3, but Polyphony is aware of what's out there. If you've seen the video of their offices, they have a fairly comprehensive resource center with a racing and car magazine library, a game library including PC games, a playroom, all sorts of things. They don't live in a GT box like many suspect, they know what's out there. What do the hardcore PC sim people want fixed? When you get down to it, they want a few things tweaked. Even live4speed admits in a few posts GT4 is very good and close to what it should be. They want:

• Tire grip dynamics tweaked
• Engine and exaust sounds on some cars fixed
• Driving physics tweaked
• Driver cam view included
• Damage in some form

With Gran Turismo HD having two modes of driving dynamics, Basic and Professional, we might finally have a GT which the PC nuts can feel remotely happy with, while not leaving the kids and newbs in the dust.

I was actually rather prophetic in my earlier posts, mentioning how Polyphony could patch in things like A.I. improvements and damage, because that's exactly what they're offering in GT HD. But of course if you think about it, any kind of downloadable content is a patch. So in the coming months, the PC nuts will also be able to implement improved bot A.I. and a certain amount of damage modelling. The Damage might be like it is in Forza, but that should keep the damage fiends from whining.

Going back to the original question, "Does the fact that the Gran Turismo series isn't a hardcore racing sim (like GTR) diminish the game's overall value?" Not for me. Gran Turismo, especially GT4, gives me access to almost 700 cars and 50 tracks. It enables me to collect those cars, as many as I'm able, and fiddle with racing enhancements. No other game comes close, except for Forza, which I'm also a big fan of. Idiot bots aside.

GT HD will go even farther, with more cars, more tracks - at least one more, more cars per race, online play with lots of setups, a paint shop in some form, downloadable updates and content, inclusion of Ferrari, and some Gran Turismo 5 content, the real jewel in the crown. The delay in release says to me that Polyphony is going to have something substantial ready for me when I lay down the cash or plastic. I don't know about you, but I'm really juiced!

 

[Raitziger]

if game has good racing simulation, it´s very easy task to create casual driving "modes". Im agree that in future they should add more content to racing ,like a carrer mode.
I know most of you will disagree but nfs has also some good points.For instance i liked that you could realy drive to every event: going local garage, race event or car dealer.
I think user should be able to access internet sites inside the game. You could use sites like gtplanet.net to share setups or other stuff just by downloading them into game.

 

[TheCracker]

Does the fact that the Gran Turismo series isn't a hardcore racing sim (like GTR) diminish the game's overall value? Explain your reasoning.

GranTurismo needs not to be as hardcore as something like GTR. GT's been a successful series for the simple reason that it appeals to a wide range of motoring enthusiasts. A move in any particular direction risks alienating more people than it would attract.

On the 'racing' aspect of the game, GT already scores highly in so many fields - great tracks, a wide range of race cars, good handling (if not perfect) to name a few. All PD needs to do is add some of the other 'sims' features to their racing side of GT5 to keep the racing fans content and stop them from 'straying'. We have already seen that the next GranTurismos will have a larger field of competitors and online ability, which will go a long way to improving matters. A racing modifications option (as in GT2) and perhaps damage modeling would also be very welcome.

I think the main hurdle for PD is to get some inteligent A.I. They need to strike a balance between the dumb drones they have at the moment and the agressive, but still mostly drone-like A.I. as seen in TRD3. An option where you have total control of where you race, who/what you race against and at what level of skill the A.I. have - which is similar to previous TRD games (but missed from TRD3) would also keep fans happier i believe.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Larger grids - better AI ---> these have been adressed and are unquestionable.

I'd like to add two more items:

1st: Reckless driving is allowed/not penalised in GT (apart from the also unrealistic 5 seconds penalty in some events) and that's a huge mistake. It takes away any sense of realism in racing. And car damage (assuming that will happen in GT5, something I'm not sure will happen) isn't the only way to prevent it (and it may not even be fair to the AI cars). So, I can think of three ways to prevent reckless driving:
a) The Enthusia way (it's more or less like the points in your drivers license. You lose some each time you make something wrong. If you lose enough, you get banned/lose you license, for a pre-determined period)
b) The MotoGP way (the bike doesn't slow down, but your finish time in the race will be added with 10 seconds for each penalty)
c) The Grand Prix way, meaning, FLAGS, pit stop penalties, drive-by the pit lane, and if you don't obey your disqualified from the race atthe end. No points and no win.

2nd: Why did I like racing in GT3 and felt bored while racing in GT4? That is more complex, but among other things, I think this happened because GT4 was too easy in career mode. I remember that in GT3, in the beggining of any career, I was always "poor" and had to squeeze everything out from my first cars. I had a Miata that at some point I really felt was "my" car, and an heroic one considering the many races it did. All because I had no money to buy others and the first prize cars were crappy.

In GT4, I started my career after I had my licenses taken, and I alreadyy had lots of cars in my garage ... so I was rich from the start ...

 

[TheCracker]

1st: Reckless driving is allowed/not penalised in GT (apart from the also unrealistic 5 seconds penalty in some events) and that's a huge mistake. It takes away any sense of realism in racing. And car damage (assuming that will happen in GT5, something I'm not sure will happen) isn't the only way to prevent it (and it may not even be fair to the AI cars). So, I can think of three ways to prevent reckless driving:
a) The Enthusia way (it's more or less like the points in your drivers license. You lose some each time you make something wrong. If you lose enough, you get banned/lose you license, for a pre-determined period)
b) The MotoGP way (the bike doesn't slow down, but your finish time in the race will be added with 10 seconds for each penalty)
c) The Grand Prix way, meaning, FLAGS, pit stop penalties, drive-by the pit lane, and if you don't obey your disqualified from the race atthe end. No points and no win.

I think a flag system is the way forward but it has to be implimented well to stop it being just another anoying feature you hate and want to switch off. Flags in TRD3 are rubbish, they penalise you for lack of talent as much as they do for bad driving. A flag system is a must for online competition. Without it you'll end up with a free for all and no one will want to race online anymore. Instead of a time penalty at the end of a race, consistant poor driving should mean a black flag and an instant end of race.