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Europe - The Official Thread
- Thread starter Touring Mars
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This is what I don't understand... Greece is only something like 3% of the Eurozone economy, and yet the entire EU is jumping through hoops to help them - even though the bottom line is that they are screwed anyway, and it seems that Merkozy will not countenance the idea of a Greek exit, even if it would ultimately leave the Eurozone in better shape. Sarkozy has already said that Greece should not have even been allowed to join in the first place, so why are they now so insistent on having them stay?
That is hilarious - although it should also be marked NSFW, not because of the videos, but because of the associated videos that come up as suggestions at the end... definitely not the kind of stuff you want to leave on your screen at work 
How much of Europe thinks about these latest developements:
WARNING: Extensive use of the F-word.
http://youtu.be/3IjGxv7_-bA
That is hilarious - although it should also be marked NSFW, not because of the videos, but because of the associated videos that come up as suggestions at the end... definitely not the kind of stuff you want to leave on your screen at work 
Ibonibo
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^Problem is French banks have put enormous money in greek gouverment papers.
Now if Greece bails out it can basiclly say : I pay back 5% or nothing.
So those who bought greece papers are screwed.
In return, those banks will lose rating, which will lose the french states rating, so the French state would help (this is way Sarko wants the EFSF to bail out banks too). In the end France would loose it top rating, and not only France.
My take on that : The banks played casino (as the broker company now closing in NY), you loose you don't come cry to papa.
banks and insurances are linked. But also linked in the good way. They have pools together for worst case senerios.
Now if Greece bails out it can basiclly say : I pay back 5% or nothing.
So those who bought greece papers are screwed.
In return, those banks will lose rating, which will lose the french states rating, so the French state would help (this is way Sarko wants the EFSF to bail out banks too). In the end France would loose it top rating, and not only France.
My take on that : The banks played casino (as the broker company now closing in NY), you loose you don't come cry to papa.
banks and insurances are linked. But also linked in the good way. They have pools together for worst case senerios.
Dotini
(Banned)
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Intuitively everybody knows this.
The problem(s) are these:
- 7 years of fat begets 7 years of lean. Only in this case it is more like 30 years.
- We Westerners have lost our appetite for suffering and are looking for a non-existent reset button.
- Everybody in Europe and ultimately the US is exposed to the contagion spreading from a default, and there is nowhere enough liquid money to stop it once the cascading action starts.
My simple-minded opinion only!
Respectfully,
Steve
- 2,529
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I do not believe Greece is the only country in this situation, nor is Europe the only continent. However why is everyone talking so much about Greece that is very far above, while very many are far above?
The referendum was for me a clear move to stabilize the internal politics. Not certain it was the right move. But indeed stop the protest with a referendum makes sense.
This indeed stating the capitalist model will survive (more world wide). I believe it will for my lifetime (and I still hope to have quite some), but I'm not positive about 200 years from now.
For me that was the EU deal, the banks allow Greece only to pay back 50% and if that puts them in trouble the governments will bail them out. => Interventionist economy
Free market: let them go bust and tough luck for those who are killed by it.
Talking about killing:
Governements are funding Afghanistand and Irak (they are trying to get out) they did fund Lybia, etc...
Maybe a war is the shock that some societies need to rethink their model!
Finally Greece has been living over their capacity and now complain they have to slim down. Slimming down will happen to most of us (PS3 owners) and in my lifetime, but that is only my feeling.
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It now looks increasingly likely that the Greek PM will not survive long enough to even have a referendum, thus forcing a general election which will be a de facto referendum on Greece's EU membership...
edit: Indeed, it looks like Papandreou is about to resign...
edit: Indeed, it looks like Papandreou is about to resign...
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- 7,177
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I'm glad I'm not the Greek PM. If I were, however, I'd have no doubt in calling a referendum too. It's a big F - word on all those mindless protesters and they deserve it.
Portugal is - still - a bit different. We are "enduring" this. Not that we are particularly stoics, but I guess we're more aware of the fact that sacrifices must be made. And I do hope we go through this and come stronger out of it. No need to be richer (wouldn't harm too ) but definitely more productive and sustainable.
Portugal is - still - a bit different. We are "enduring" this. Not that we are particularly stoics, but I guess we're more aware of the fact that sacrifices must be made. And I do hope we go through this and come stronger out of it. No need to be richer (wouldn't harm too ) but definitely more productive and sustainable.
- 5,954
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- Blitz187
- Are u serious?
IMO the bolded part is the solution.... Strong countries like Germany, Netherlands and France (Arent they in trouble as well now, having dumped money in Greece?) should step out of the EU and start their own currency... Let the rest deal with their own problems. Tired of seeing all this hub bub with Greece on the news and then the population there being against any kind of cuts by the government. If they're all against it, give them what they want and let them suffer the consequences.
Ibonibo
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^The currency coming out of such an alliance would be too strong to be good.
Germany is very happy when the Euro is a bit weaker.
Also the Euro isn't the problem.
The problem are the politicans. If like Vince said we would apply the most basic economic concepts of free markets, greece would never have made it into the Euro zone, we wouldn't save every bank,....
Man I wish they were also helping people like this. I would trade high speculative stocks : if i win all for me if I loose I go cry and get my money back from the working class Lol
The concept of system revalence is very improbable in the way politics made them.
If you mis manage, you loose. That is true also in other domains apart from economics.
Intervering with that and you mess up the whole economics.
Why should a bank not do high speculative business. The state will help if they fail.
That is the biggest flaw.
subventions are the same. they are brakes to the free market.
Germany is very happy when the Euro is a bit weaker.
Also the Euro isn't the problem.
The problem are the politicans. If like Vince said we would apply the most basic economic concepts of free markets, greece would never have made it into the Euro zone, we wouldn't save every bank,....
Man I wish they were also helping people like this. I would trade high speculative stocks : if i win all for me if I loose I go cry and get my money back from the working class Lol
The concept of system revalence is very improbable in the way politics made them.
If you mis manage, you loose. That is true also in other domains apart from economics.
Intervering with that and you mess up the whole economics.
Why should a bank not do high speculative business. The state will help if they fail.
That is the biggest flaw.
subventions are the same. they are brakes to the free market.
- 23,984
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The Greeks have been 'enduring' cuts for a long time now, many normal, middle-class citizens have lost their jobs, homes and livelihoods because of the cuts. Sacrifices can only be endured for so long. The riots and protests, that have been ongoing since early 2010, are against further cuts that will drag the population to it's knees. If the country has massive unemployment, which it is bound to with further austerity measures, how can the country be expected to pay off debts if their economy goes down the drain.
Greece will become bankrupt and 'suffer the consequences' sooner or later. That is inevitable. The only difference between bailing it out now or leaving it to fate, is that Greece will be forced to pay back the mostly German and French banks. In effect the 'Greek bailout' is little more than a German and French bank bailout.
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My reference to further cuts is based on things Ive read and heard that a large sum of government workers and public sector workers in Greece make unbelievable sums of money in salary and bonuses (14th Salary comes to mind). I know there have been cuts already, but going by some of the things Ive read in the past year or so, I think further cuts wont be so bad for them if it turns out to be their saviour within the EU. Now if the middle class population who doesnt make these crazy sums of money are also being cut, then your statements make a lot of sense (Why did Greece, not only target the inflated salaries?) and I can understand their dismay. On the other hand I still believe they should deal with it themselves. I see no reason why the country I live in should go down in flames along with Greece who seem to have had strange financial practices in place to keep a high standard of living.
Also, what happens after the Greek Bailout?..... Italy Bailout?.... Spain Bailout? Unfortunately Greece is not the only EU country in trouble as everyone knows.... France is also not in that great of position right now either. Which again leads me to my thoughts on having the strong countries step out of the Euro and make their own currency. This is something I do not see happening anytime soon though....
- 23,984
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Greek unemployment is already at 16.5%. Further cuts and the inevitable further unemployment that would surely follow, would obviously leave even less tax income for Greece to pay off it's debts. The ultra-rich Greeks who haven't been forthcoming with their tax payments, are unlikely to be chased very hard, by their present government at least, since political corruption is rife. They're also unlikely to be touched much by austerity measures or even national bankruptcy, so are not going to be inclined to help the rest of their nation out.
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Well, Spains unemployment is 21%. With the youth is almost 50%. Those are ridiculous numbers.
To bail out Italy requires so much money, it will never happen.
I think Brussel is going to step into Greece' financial situation, if they want to stay in the Eurozone, and take over control to bring it back up to Euro standards.
To bail out Italy requires so much money, it will never happen.
I think Brussel is going to step into Greece' financial situation, if they want to stay in the Eurozone, and take over control to bring it back up to Euro standards.
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I hear you, but as you point out, there isn't enough money. to bailout all piigs or to stop contagion. The EU bail fund needs to exceed 2 trillion euro to have a chance of covering all the sovereign debt outstanding in the piigs. Who can possibly stump that up.
I'd rather have Greece fail and get on the road to ending the global recession, rather then the current tack of sitting at the side of the road with the motor off.
To paraphrase ex-Aussie PM Paul Keating, its a recession Europe needs to have.
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And that sucks! When we had money (construction bubble), instead of spending in R&D, what we did? Build pointless airports, high-speed rail (that black hole of money known as the AVE), more universities, and of course MORE HOUSES! Specially in front of beaches!
Now we've got a bunch of EMPTY houses, trains and airports (and by empty I mean NOT A SINGLE PLANE on the runway) and lots of smart young people with nowhere to work on, unless they go outside.
And of course, when it's spending cutting time, guess what got the cut. Politicians' salaries? Pointless autonomical divisions and plugged-in jobs? Bankers? No. EDUCATION AND HEALTH.
Tócate los cojones (grab your nuts), I'm going to Canada/Australia/UK/somewhere where I can get a decent job.
Now we've got a bunch of EMPTY houses, trains and airports (and by empty I mean NOT A SINGLE PLANE on the runway) and lots of smart young people with nowhere to work on, unless they go outside.
And of course, when it's spending cutting time, guess what got the cut. Politicians' salaries? Pointless autonomical divisions and plugged-in jobs? Bankers? No. EDUCATION AND HEALTH.
Tócate los cojones (grab your nuts), I'm going to Canada/Australia/UK/somewhere where I can get a decent job.
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Had a good laugh when I read that!
Unfortunately, the EU is stuck between choosing between something bad (bailing Greece out) and worse (letting them fail utterly). I hope Greeks and Europeans alike learn a constructive lesson from this. Glad that the Greek PM took the referendum off the table though.
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This is one of the reasons I can understand the riots and politics should have the courage to attack that part of society too!
I see this since years as ticking time-bomb. But migration could be good. However I know some people moving to the UK and facing very similar situations. It is hard for people beginning to work!
From what I remember there was only 1 country really in Euro standards at the time of the Euro creation = Luxembourg.
However I do not believe the Luxembourgish model will work for large countries. Anyway even Juncker once admitted that Luxembourgish results depend heavily on world economy due to the influence of bank activity.
In stead of moving towards the criteria countries are moving away from them. To counter the crisis all governments wanted to invest and break the Annual government deficit rule. It is difficult to lecture the small countries when the large ones are also breaking the rules!
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Nice one, that gave me a chuckle.And let's not forget that it may not even be up to the EU to decide... it's hard enough to tell as a relatively neutral observer which option the Greeks themselves will opt for, but I can imagine that the average Greek who faces years of hardship (not to mention more immediate problems, like having no money to pay for anything at all) will choose whichever path seems to benefit them the most, atleast in the short term. The fact that Greece faces a disaster if the bailout money stops is probably enough of a deterrent to the average voter to persuade them not to try going it alone.
Ibonibo
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One of the most sad thing in this whole is that the EU basiclly applies a model (leverage) that it condams to be a main contribution to he crisis in 2008.
I am for a free market, we need banks in the futur, but they need to be put in a legal frame, because there are so many products that are more than bad, immoral or just not fair.
I understand the Occupy mouvement, but with their message they screw themselves up and will not be taken seriously in all their concerns. And when i see them disguised as Robin hood and hipsters talking in front of the camera, I just can laugh about it. And some of their demands are just dumb.
Capitalism is good, but it needs a framework to operate in so that there is not an abuse
I am for a free market, we need banks in the futur, but they need to be put in a legal frame, because there are so many products that are more than bad, immoral or just not fair.
I understand the Occupy mouvement, but with their message they screw themselves up and will not be taken seriously in all their concerns. And when i see them disguised as Robin hood and hipsters talking in front of the camera, I just can laugh about it. And some of their demands are just dumb.
Capitalism is good, but it needs a framework to operate in so that there is not an abuse
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To be fair, the wheels were set in motion for this situation in the early '80's. Banking and financial regulations put in place after the 1930's depression were a safety net so that kind of crisis wouldn't happen again. A series of 'economic experts' with the ear of people in power, set in motion a movement to deregulate how the banks could operate deal with your money. It was all geared so the banks and bankers could make short-term gains. Bankers went from being comfortably off to being mega-wealthy in a very short period of time, all on the back of gambling with our money. They even managed to hoodwink governments into bailing them out when their greed got the better of their talents.
Keef
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"...safer assets like treasury bonds, 30-year bonds, and the US dollar."
Wow. That guy is a complete moron. No wonder the world's economy is in shambles. I stopped listening right after that line because I already know this fella has absolutely nothing to contribute to any functional debate about the economy.
Wow. That guy is a complete moron. No wonder the world's economy is in shambles. I stopped listening right after that line because I already know this fella has absolutely nothing to contribute to any functional debate about the economy.
