Europe - The Official Thread

HenrySwanson
Denmark doing something radical to try and "integrate" those from predominatly non-European backgrounds:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html

COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law. Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”

Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.
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Sounds like a pretty radical step. The Danes are known for a rather having a rather homogeneus society with massive central government and massive taxation. It's a rather interesting turn of events in what we are often told on this side of the pond is a model for a progressive and tolerant socialist society. One wouldn't think this type of thing could happen in Bernie Sander's socialist utopia. If this kind of thing can happen in the progressive and socialist model for democracy, what hope do the rest of us have to avoid a move to the right on this issue?
 
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HenrySwanson

Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,”
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Cool, free childcare!

Pretty bold proposal - but it sounds like something that would get struck down by the courts here in the UK.
 
HenrySwanson
Denmark doing something radical to try and "integrate" those from predominatly non-European backgrounds:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html

COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law. Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”

Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.
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I thought this movement of the mandatory school age was for the children of all parents who are receiving benefits? That write-up seems a lot like some kind of propaganda to me. Danish language (and Danish as a base for English studies) are naturally on the curriculum, so is teaching of the history of Denmark, so is teaching of the history of all major world religions including Christianity. The Lutheran tradition in Danish religious education is nothing new but it's worth noting that the approach has softened considerably over the years. The course that's called "Christianity Studies" is actually what we'd recognise in the UK as a broad RE curriculum.

Touring Mars
Pretty bold proposal - but it sounds like something that would get struck down by the courts here in the UK.
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I suspect so although we do have funding for this available for parents on benefits. I can't see it being mandatory that parents attending compulsory sessions have to place their children with authorised providers though.
 
Mr Tree
On the first part you qouted me. I ask you because you felt it's justified as it currently stands. I disagree because I play devils advocate. I find it quite 'insulting' you find yoyr countries etnicity so important to be souvereign but deny my village's etnicity diffrence from neighbouring villages and think I shouldn't have a right to souvereignity with my village. ;) ow yeah and I will continue until my house is a souvereign state I don't have to listen to those people living around me..

To be clear I don't agree with above statements but I'll gladly push it there if you can't give me a reason why a state has a right to be souvereign or not or why I as a inhabitant and voter of the (hypotetical) country EU have less souvereignty then I have now.
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oh gee, because small EU nations will be destroyed in every voting in hypothetical EU superstate ... what does that resemble? Occupation, only without soldiers.

Mr Tree
So I wanted you to answer that question because I want to know YOUR opinion not that of a historian or someone else. I stated this before I don't.want to know how things are currently I want to know why you support the current status quo.
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You said you are from Netherlands, do your fellow countrymen share your radical views on merging with Germany?

It's funny that you think I'm some sort of separatist while in reality I'm globalist who thinks the World is not ready to create superstates or global government. We are at least few hundred years from that :lol:.

Mr Tree
If your process can only handle less then 1000 people seeking asylum in a year your system is either **** or deliberatly slow to stop people from entering.
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or so called "refugees" don't want to apply for asylum here, which is btw. another reason why quotas combined with schengen wouldn't work.
 
novcze
oh gee, because small EU nations will be destroyed in every voting in hypothetical EU superstate ... what does that resemble? Occupation, only without soldiers.



You said you are from Netherlands, do your fellow countrymen share your radical views on merging with Germany?

It's funny that you think I'm some sort of separatist while in reality I'm globalist who thinks the World is not ready to create superstates or global government. We are at least few hundred years from that :lol:.



or so called "refugees" don't want to apply for asylum here, which is btw. another reason why quotas combined with schengen wouldn't work.
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Point one, but there are no small nation no more we would be one nation. Our diffrences aren't that large and we can easily set up a constitution that protects this nation against a dictatorship of the majority. Or what laxs would you be so afraid of?

I'm Belgian but none the less when.merging into a country called the eu I'd happilly merge with all other eu nations into 1 giant european union. Why would I not want to? Wouldn't that be hypocritical of me?

Point 3 I agree the world is not ready I just can't find a descent rational explanation for why people dislike superstated. It eithdr stems from fear or it's things that need to be discussed when the constitution of the state is drawn out. You seemed to disagree with that notion and haven't convinced me I'm wrong as I haven't convinced you that people are just scared of new things and that's.why an eu asa country is not yet feasable.

Point 4 exactly why we need the qouta's. The refugees don't get to choose, countries don't get to choose and we all take in our fair share. Something your government doesn't want to do. So why is it qoutas won't help with a fair distribution of refugees.

Also what do you mean with so called 'refugees'? That they aren't? I will grant there is a portion that isn't but a significant portion of them are.

And I don't know which if the 3 countries in the article it was but one of them stated once they'd only take in christian refugees and no muslims. So I think it's avout more then they don't want to apply here.
 
It is hardly a surprise that the EU are struggling to come up with a coherent, workable, fair, humane policy on immigration, given that Germany can't even seem to come up with one for themselves... Angela Merkel struck a last-ditch deal with her CSU coalition partners yesterday, at the risk of alienating another part of that same coalition... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...sed-over-merkel-compromise-on-border-controls

What is increasingly clear is that the days of Germany's open door policy are well and truly over, but there remains the problem that current EU agreements are not being honoured e.g. Hungary are refusing to take back any migrants that they let enter the EU, and many more countries besides are unwilling to accept any more migrants unless other EU members agree to take their fair share. Practically by definition, that means a quota system, and that has already been ruled out by several member states out of hand.
 
Mr Tree
Point one, but there are no small nation no more we would be one nation. Our diffrences aren't that large and we can easily set up a constitution that protects this nation against a dictatorship of the majority. Or what laxs would you be so afraid of?

I'm Belgian but none the less when.merging into a country called the eu I'd happilly merge with all other eu nations into 1 giant european union. Why would I not want to? Wouldn't that be hypocritical of me?
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there are political, cultural and economical differences in the EU (maybe not so between Belgium and Germany) ... so surprise surprise people are not so keen on creating EU superstate

Mr Tree
Point 4 exactly why we need the qouta's. The refugees don't get to choose, countries don't get to choose and we all take in our fair share. Something your government doesn't want to do. So why is it qoutas won't help with a fair distribution of refugees.
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What's the point of taking in people who don't want to be here and flee to Germany at first chance they get?

Mr Tree
Also what do you mean with so called 'refugees'? That they aren't? I will grant there is a portion that isn't but a significant portion of them are.
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people are not refugees until their status is determined and when the EU Dublin Regulation failed it's sovereign government's job to do so.

http://www.unhcr.org/refugee-status-determination.html
 
novcze
there are political, cultural and economical differences in the EU (maybe not so between Belgium and Germany) ... so surprise surprise people are not so keen on creating EU superstate



What's the point of taking in people who don't want to be here and flee to Germany at first chance they get?



people are not refugees until their status is determined and when the EU Dublin Regulation failed it's sovereign government's job to do so.

http://www.unhcr.org/refugee-status-determination.html
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On point one I realise you thibk oyr difftences are large enough to kot be able to live together. But I haven't yeard of a diffrence that wpu make it so.impossible. The economic diffrence is in part due to all having diffent economic legislation. Political? I don't see to ma.y diffrences in political nature that are unresolvable, don't forget belgium is made up out of a socialistic southern part and a right wing northern part we.seem to live together just fine. And cultural? How diffrent Is your culture from you neighbouring country compared to your culture and the culture of a city 100km away in your country. That's my point I find thede reasons to be unfounded and fearmongering.

Point 2 fair enough I think this has domewhat to do with how welcoming your country is but still fair enough.

Point 3 yeah ok but they are aplying for a refugee status and I didn't want to type it in full. But what has the dublin treaty to do with this souvreignty? I seem to mis your point on that due to language barrier.

Edit. Thanks for trying to show me your opinion I'm finding this conversation very interesting.
 
TenEightyOne
I thought this movement of the mandatory school age was for the children of all parents who are receiving benefits? That write-up seems a lot like some kind of propaganda to me.
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I think it affects everyone living in the 25 "enclaves" but since they are largely populated with immigrants that's what the NYT ran with.
 
Touring Mars
It is hardly a surprise that the EU are struggling to come up with a coherent, workable, fair, humane policy on immigration, given that Germany can't even seem to come up with one for themselves... Angela Merkel struck a last-ditch deal with her CSU coalition partners yesterday, at the risk of alienating another part of that same coalition... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...sed-over-merkel-compromise-on-border-controls

What is increasingly clear is that the days of Germany's open door policy are well and truly over, but there remains the problem that current EU agreements are not being honoured e.g. Hungary are refusing to take back any migrants that they let enter the EU, and many more countries besides are unwilling to accept any more migrants unless other EU members agree to take their fair share. Practically by definition, that means a quota system, and that has already been ruled out by several member states out of hand.
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What do you say to the idea that the UK agrees to take all - or at very least 33 % - of the immigrants in return for favorable terms of Brexit?
 
HenrySwanson
"A review of sentencing reports between January 2016 and May 2017 by the newspaper BT"
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Google translated version of the page.
While google translate isn’t perfect, it gives the impression that BT where incredibly selective with there data. And given the seemingly arbitrary dates and wording they used, I imagine they were looking to get a certain kind of result.

Assault crimes where victims and perpetrators do not know each other or only know each other very peripherally, is the type of rape that is fewer sentences in Denmark. For a period of about a year and a half, 12 people have been convicted of the type of rape. Of these, 10 immigrants or descendants of immigrants are.
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I’d be interested to hear from any Danes regarding the translation, but it seems like hot garbage.
 
baldgye
Google translated version of the page.
While google translate isn’t perfect, it gives the impression that BT where incredibly selective with there data. And given the seemingly arbitrary dates and wording they used, I imagine they were looking to get a certain kind of result.


I’d be interested to hear from any Danes regarding the translation, but it seems like hot garbage.
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But then what about the disproportionate representation in gang rapes in Sweden?
Or the NYE sexual assaults in Germany?
Or the gang rapes in England?

I dunno man, there seems like a lot to explain
 
baldgye
Google translated version of the page.
While google translate isn’t perfect, it gives the impression that BT where incredibly selective with there data. And given the seemingly arbitrary dates and wording they used, I imagine they were looking to get a certain kind of result.


I’d be interested to hear from any Danes regarding the translation, but it seems like hot garbage.
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Indeed. Some of those cases were sexual assaults rather than rapes, it seems, and this is a selection of 12 cases over 5 months which doesn't seem like very many.

HenrySwanson
But then what about the disproportionate representation in gang rapes in Sweden?
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Indeed, and it's true of Britain that rapes involving more than two participants involve perpetrators from ethnic minorities in over 90% of cases. The accompanying stat that's rarely quoted is how low a proportion of overall rapes those crimes represent (just under 1% in Britain). As far as the other problems with trying to extrapolate 'rape' reports in Sweden your previous incarnations have had that explained at length.

HenrySwanson
Or the NYE sexual assaults in Germany?
Or the gang rapes in England?
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See above. The fact remains that the large proportion of sexual assaults and rapes are perpetrated by the kind of people who don't otherwise cause any alarm bells for easily triggered right-wingers.
 
HenrySwanson
But then what about the disproportionate representation in gang rapes in Sweden?
Or the NYE sexual assaults in Germany?
Or the gang rapes in England?

I dunno man, there seems like a lot to explain
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I just want to restate that, after I threw up some BASIC criticism regarding the survey which the Infowars news story was based on, he instantly switched topics.

Like, dude, if you made a mistake own up to it. Why do you need to perpetuate insane falsehoods and how do those prove this news story is anything other than nonsense?
 
novcze
Yes and it is. I'm saying it for years that I'm a fan of Australian model where status of people is resolved outside. It's better for them too, they don't have to pay smugglers and undertake risk at sea. This and direct help in regions from which they are emigrating.
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Unfortunately, 'resolving the problem outside' means shifting the problem from European soil back to, say, African soil - and the consequences are grim.

I read this piece from the Associated Press today about Algeria and how they are dealing with immigrants... I'll warn anyone of a sensitive disposition that it is shocking. Resolving the problem outside of the EU just means that someone else has to do the dirty work - and when those countries include Algeria and Libya, that presents just as big an ethical problem than turning boats away at Italian docks.

The EU's proposals effectively mean turning regions across North Africa into a legally nebulous 'No Man's Land' where people who are lucky enough to make it that far wait to see whether they are deemed worthy of entry into the EU - but what of those who are turned back? At the present moment, Algeria takes these people and dumps them in the desert - it's estimated that more people are dying in the deserts of North Africa than in the Mediterranean. Obviously the EU cannot allow this to happen - especially seeing as this is the result of closing off alternative routes and options, but since when did the EU have any say as to how Algeria, Libya, Morocco (or anyone else for that matter) conduct their affairs when it comes to handling migrants that they don't want either?

It is a vexed question and I raise the issue of Algeria here merely for illustration of the point that 'resolving things outside' might just be ethically even worse than the present situation, raising serious questions about what European values really mean in practice, and whether the people of Europe have the desire to actually implement the migration policies they adopt.
 
novcze
Yes and it is. I'm saying it for years that I'm a fan of Australian model where status of people is resolved outside. It's better for them too, they don't have to pay smugglers and undertake risk at sea. This and direct help in regions from which they are emigrating.




because big money are going their way?
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Resolving as in the utterly inhumane camps Australia run as detention and processing centres?

If that's the case then quite frankly I'm now of the view you don't have a bit of human compassion remaining.
 
Scaff
Resolving as in the utterly inhumane camps Australia run as detention and processing centres?

If that's the case then quite frankly I'm now of the view you don't have a bit of human compassion remaining.
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He specifically said he was a fan of the Australian MODEL, not necessarily the way it was implemented in that specific case.
 
Touring Mars
Unfortunately, 'resolving the problem outside' means shifting the problem from European soil back to, say, African soil - and the consequences are grim.

I read this piece from the Associated Press today about Algeria and how they are dealing with immigrants... I'll warn anyone of a sensitive disposition that it is shocking. Resolving the problem outside of the EU just means that someone else has to do the dirty work - and when those countries include Algeria and Libya, that presents just as big an ethical problem than turning boats away at Italian docks.

The EU's proposals effectively mean turning regions across North Africa into a legally nebulous 'No Man's Land' where people who are lucky enough to make it that far wait to see whether they are deemed worthy of entry into the EU - but what of those who are turned back? At the present moment, Algeria takes these people and dumps them in the desert - it's estimated that more people are dying in the deserts of North Africa than in the Mediterranean. Obviously the EU cannot allow this to happen - especially seeing as this is the result of closing off alternative routes and options, but since when did the EU have any say as to how Algeria, Libya, Morocco (or anyone else for that matter) conduct their affairs when it comes to handling migrants that they don't want either?

It is a vexed question and I raise the issue of Algeria here merely for illustration of the point that 'resolving things outside' might just be ethically even worse than the present situation, raising serious questions about what European values really mean in practice, and whether the people of Europe have the desire to actually implement the migration policies they adopt.
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When I hear anti migration right wing advocated talk aboyt european values what they really want to conveye is best read over multiple interviews. Francken the belgian asylum secratary. Interview one: Having people able to ask asylum in an ambasy is not feasable as that would extend out border to every abassy in the world. Interview 2: I thin we need to help people over there so they can go via legal routes instead of smugglers.

Ad those interviews statements and you get. Don't come via a smuggler, take the official routes. Oww yeah I want to close of official routes...

European values a4e pretty much let's act like we want to help people but **** them and.let them die in the dessert or the mediteranian. Thing is you'll.never catch them immoral people saying it out loud.
 

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