Transition from Gran Turismo to real life, things you need to be aware of. (Updated poll 7/27!)

[sk8er913]

7/12/15 I just got home from real life racing. And it was my second time in a kart. I used my knowledge from my G27 to make rapid and huge leaps in my lap times the first time I was in the kart. However tonight when I applied my GT knowledge to the racetrack. I got an unpleasant surprise in the form of several bruises from the violent shaking vehicle. So I decided to create a thread detailing holes in GT6 physics to help amateurs drivers as well as Polyphony Digital.

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8/3/15
I raced tonight again, and I'm looking back at the poll results for "Are you happy with the accuracy of GT6 physics." And only 72.2% of you voted yes. That's not a true representative of how good this games physics really are. People call it a "simcade." but it is only a simcade on a DS3. If you get a high quality wheel from either Logitech or Thrustmaster or whatever it feels great! I now have about 110 minutes of track time, which admittedly doesn't sound like much. But every time I do a session, the lines between virtual and reality are becoming more and more blurry. The only real difference in the game and the real thing is that in the game you use your arms to feel how it's handling through the steering wheel, but in real life that is less important. This game is incredible, and it produces great drivers. I know @kart.no.38 would agree with that, he wins pretty much every race he goes too.


When I originally designed this thread I was unhappy with the accuracy of this thread, and I wanted to point out things that it gets wrong so that new drivers could use the information to avoid those pesky rookie mistakes. tonight though, it's completely different. Gran Turismo can improve it's physics, because it obviously have it's flaws. They are way too forgiving, small mistakes in real life seem cost a lot more time than in GT. GT6 has a great physics engine and it is a great tool to improve real life driving skills.

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Poll results:

Are you happy with the accuracy of GT6 physics?

Yes: 72.2%
No: 27.8%

...............................................................

How good is the Force Feedback for wheels in Gran Turismo 6?

I am not a wheel user: ...................................................................28.3%
It is great and doesn't affect realism that much: .................................10.9%
It is good, but I would like to see minor changes to enhance the realism: 13.0%
It is ok, but I would like to see moderate changes to enhance the realism: 39.1%
It is a severe problem that needs to be fixed for GT to feel lifelike:.....................8.7%

......................................................


Severely incorrect:

Understeer + Extra steering input:

In-game: mild understeer, increased tire wear, and the wheels feedback weakens.
Real life: soft suspension with low grip tires seems to behave similarly to in game. However, with hard suspension and a higher grip tire, the vehicle shakes and bounces violently. Loses a lot of straight line speed, as the extra horizontal angle acts as a brake, and often loses contact with the ground causing even more understeer.
Possible Causes: Camber doesn't work correctly, tire pressures are not modeled, they don't absorb and shed heat like a real tire, carcass deformation modeling doesn't seem to be there etc.
More correctly simulated in:
Live For Speed (PC) says @letdown427
Contributors: @sk8er913 @Johnnypenso
Endorsed by:



No lift off oversteer

In Game: When you suddenly come off the throttle, when the car is cornering at it's limit on a smooth track, the rear wheels do not lose grip. Only certain cars have it modeled, and when it is modeled it is very weak.
In real life: When you come off the throttle suddenly when a car is cornering at or near it's limit, the rear wheels will loose grip & the car will oversteer (see video in post 8). You can control the car with the throttle better.
More correctly simulated in:
AC says @Johnnypenso
Contributors: @VBR @Imari
Endorsed by: @super_gt



Very poor clutch simulation

In Game: When you go to shift, weird things happen sometimes it goes back to neutral, just because you tapped the throttle. In some cars, the clutch doesn't even work. And for gamepad users they can't even assign a clutch button.
More correctly simulated in:
Copa Petrabras de Marcas says @sk8er913
Contributors: @sk8er913 @RobbiefromBC
Endorsed by:


Moderately incorrect:

Cars drag coefficients are wrong:

In-game: aerodynamic drag in GT is falsely represented leading to an excessive top speed and may change braking points.
Contributors: @YZF
Endorsed by: @Manasseh257NSX

Force feedback dynamics are poor:

In-Game: On straights most of the time there is no feedback, no bumps in the road or anything. The wheel oscillates back and forth in a feedback loop until it spins out. And in cornering the wheel is light and overly stable, I have often heard it described as, "driving on a cloud."
Real Life: There are bumps in the road/track, usually. The wheels oscillations get smaller instead bigger when you let go of the wheel. You can feel the tires, suspension and the road working together to get the car around the corner.
Contributors: @Robbks @Ettick @RobbiefromBC @sk8er913

Minorly incorrect:

Tuning doesn't follow real life examples
In-game: Tuning doesn't follow real world physics much at all.
Contributors: Several, pages 1-2
Endorsed by:

Well simulated list:

Counter-steering endorsed by: @sk8er913
Load transfer endorsed by: @TJC_69
Air density changes with tempurature endorsed by: @iName @KinLM





Explanation of sections and how to contribute to this catalog:

- Severe, moderate, and minorly incorrect issues are categorized based on how big of an impact it has on driving at the limit. You are encouraged to suggest a change if you feel that it is in the wrong category.

- In game and real life designate if the description is what happens in real life or in the game Gran Turismo 6. You are again encouraged to suggest changes if you feel like it would improve it.

- Better simulated by list is a compilation of games that simulate that particular issue better than Gran Turismo 6 on force feedback wheels. It's not saying that it's a better as a whole and This is definitely not meant to put down or praise ANY SIMULATION GAME! This section is meant to help gamer to racers practice and prepare for the real world using simulation racing games.

- Contribution list have people who have added to that topic.

- Well Simulated list are things players think is well simulated in this game, if you would like to add something to this list, tag me.

- Endorsement list have people that agree with that post, if you would like to be added to this list, tag me. Endorsements are preferred to be members that have experienced this in real life and in game.


Please use a format compatible with the one that I am using so that it is easier for me to make it fit into this post if you are wanting to add or modify something to the OP.

 

[Com Fox]

I have an issue with GT3 Race Cars, Opel Speedster and the NSXs, they drive like they want to kill you in this game.

 

[FoRiZon]

Is it going to be Hones Trailers: Gran Turismo 6 or some sort?

 

[Com Fox]

Is it going to be Hones Trailers: Gran Turismo 6 or some sort?

More of the "Everything Wrong with GT6" type.

 

[sk8er913]

Is it going to be Hones Trailers: Gran Turismo 6 or some sort?

More of the "Everything Wrong with GT6" type.

No, and no, Its constructive criticism about GTs physics, directed at Gran Turismo players that want to or do participate in real life racing. So that they don't make silly mistakes that aren't well represented in the physics engine. It's to enhance the simulation + real life experience.

 

[jimipitbull]

GT6 is digital, real physics are analog. It goes alright, all things considered.

Use the game to learn the tracks, improve your hand/eye coordination.

 

[YZF]

Severely incorrect:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6-top-speeds-are-not-realistic-please-fix-pd.297382/unread

 

[VBR]

There's no lift off oversteer/trailing throttle oversteer in Gran Turismo 6. I've tested various stock cars on flat surfaces while driving in a wide circle & it simply isn't there (although some talented tuners might be able to tune it in with extreme settings). Yes, there is front end bite when coming off the throttle, but the rear end never breaks loose at or near the limit. Yes, lifting off on a bumpy track will cause the rear end to come out, but that's because of the bump not the lifting off.

To see exactly what lift off oversteer is, watch this video from 17:50. Try & replicate that in GT6.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

@sk8er913 are you comparing real life karting to karting in gt, or real life karting to gt in general ?

I disagree with your statement about understeer, regardless...

 

[sk8er913]

Severely incorrect:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6-top-speeds-are-not-realistic-please-fix-pd.297382/unread

I know they are off, but is that a severe issue? I think its a minor issue...

@sk8er913 are you comparing real life karting to karting in gt, or real life karting to gt in general ?

I disagree with your statement about understeer, regardless...

Karts in real life vs gt kart. But also incorpating my experiences with my road car. What part do you disagree with?

Edit: its technically not about understeer, its a technique to purposely steer slightly too sharp to maximize the grip of the front tires and abuse the properties of understeer, works very well in GT, did not work at all in real life.

 

[jimipitbull]

I know they are off, but is that a severe issue? I think its a minor issue...

It's because the game disc spins faster than a flywheel. Minor issue.

 

[sk8er913]

It's because the game disc spins faster than a flywheel. Minor issue.

lol. The drag in game is misrepresented, on many tracks that is almost unnoticeable IMO... hasn't there been an update to raise drag since Jan 14 btw?

There's no lift off oversteer/trailing throttle oversteer in Gran Turismo 6. I've tested various stock cars on flat surfaces while driving in a wide circle & it simply isn't there (although some talented tuners might be able to tune it in with extreme settings). Yes, there is front end bite when coming off the throttle, but the rear end never breaks loose at or near the limit. Yes, lifting off on a bumpy track will cause the rear end to come out, but that's because of the bump not the lifting off.

To see exactly what lift off oversteer is, watch this video from 17:50. Try & replicate that in GT6.

Can you try to put that into words similar to OP so that it is easier for people to comment on and improve on its description, also state how big of a problem it is in GT physics, severe, moderate or minor.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

I know they are off, but is that a severe issue? I think its a minor issue...



Karts in real life vs gt kart. But also incorpating my experiences with my road car. What part do you disagree with?

ok, first off comparing trail braking to overturning , modulating the brake is not the same as turning too much and losing all grip at front end...
The understeer via too much steering input .. understeer is usualy caused from going too fast into a corner, the extra steering you do while understeering isn't doing anything because you've already lost the grip..
The part about losing straight line ..... you know what i can't be bothered anymore... but you get the idea.

 

[YZF]

I know they are off, but is that a severe issue? I think its a minor issue...

And I think it is a severe issue. Look at the speed and acceleration differences, they are huge. 2 times faster, 30% higher, etc...these are big numbers. Compare the HP difference:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...tic-please-fix-pd.297382/page-8#post-10847910

Also lap times are affected by it too.

This is much more serious than tyre grip levels

 

[sk8er913]

ok, first off comparing trail braking to overturning , modulating the brake is not the same as turning too much and losing all grip at front end...
The understeer via too much steering input .. understeer is usualy caused from going too fast into a corner, the extra steering you do while understeering isn't doing anything because you've already lost the grip..
The part about losing straight line ..... you know what i can't be bothered anymore... but you get the idea.

What would a technique to purposely add extra steering (5-10 degrees) into corners be called? It works well on my G27, didn't work in the karts.

Extra steering is like braking, because the extra turning angle acts as a brake because of the horizontal axis, and because they act as a brake I lost a lot of time in the first QP session on the straighter parts. And you actually lose more grip with extra steering, because the tires lose contact with the road while the skip. Your explanation lead me to change my explanation in the OP, would you like to be added as a contributor to that topic?

@YZF I will put it in the moderate section because its importance varies with the car and the race itself. I don't think drag issues will affect miatas at Autumn Ring very dramatically. but it is very important for like NASCAR at Daytona.



Can someone that races in real life with ABS describe whats wrong with GTs ABS? I would like to know, but I don't have the necessary experience to write an accurate review, I only know that GTs is unrealistic, how much does it affect the way the car feels?

 

[super_gt]

No,I am not happy with the accuracy of GT6 current physics engine.

 

[YZF]

@YZF I will put it in the moderate section because its importance varies with the car and the race itself. I don't think drag issues will affect miatas at Autumn Ring very dramatically. but it is very important for like NASCAR at Daytona.

Let me tell you that 'it matters' whenever you drive faster than 200km/h (130mph). So when you (or others) are doing this speed or more? Don't answer to me, just think about it

 

[NixxxoN]

About understeer in GT6 - make sure you correct the default HORRIBLE suspension settings from the cars. Because by default they are set up to understeer, many of them. Like for example all cars having rear toe set to +0.6 or higher, including the FWD ones. I mean, really?

There's no lift off oversteer/trailing throttle oversteer in Gran Turismo 6. I've tested various stock cars on flat surfaces while driving in a wide circle & it simply isn't there (although some talented tuners might be able to tune it in with extreme settings). Yes, there is front end bite when coming off the throttle, but the rear end never breaks loose at or near the limit. Yes, lifting off on a bumpy track will cause the rear end to come out, but that's because of the bump not the lifting off.

To see exactly what lift off oversteer is, watch this video from 17:50. Try & replicate that in GT6.

Pretty sure you can lift off oversteer in GT6. Thats exactly what I do when the car oversteers too much and I want to save it from a spin - lift off. So yeah, It is there, but you cant do it with all the cars of course.

 

[Skygrasper550]

If I may, I would love for members of this site who are real-life drifters to conduct a test with GT6's physics, see what is wrong and what is right when it comes to drifting. However, this has to be a two-part test, because from all the adjustments PD made to the game through updates, the physics of the game upon release are clearly different from the physics' current state. I would like them to test the physics back then and the physucks (yes, physucks) now.

Back then, grip was everywhere and very predictable. I was using C:H tires, the tires with the lowest grip in the game and yet I could feel them fighting for grip and making the car straight straight again. What's also amazing is that loss of grip and regaining of grip were both very progressive; even with a rough tune the cars would still feel amazing to drive.

But now, ugh. Just... Ugh. Everything feels so much different now. Whenever you attempt to drift a car, it feels so frantic and slippery. You throw the car into a slide and you have absolutely no idea where it's gonna head off to, or when you're going to stop sliding. And maintaining a slide is incredibly difficult; it's almost impossible unless you're going quite slow and hitting the exact amount of throttle input and countersteer. There's just literally no room for error. It's not as intuitive as it used to be.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

You have edited a few bits since, but..

What would a technique to purposely add extra steering (5-10 degrees) into corners be called?

In my opinion, I'd call it 'the wrong technique'

Extra steering is like braking, because the extra turning angle acts as a brake because of the horizontal axis,

Correct, this happens in the game and in real life.

edit: its 'like' braking as in the sense that you slow down .. but its under steer that slows you down..

And you actually lose more grip with extra steering, because the tires lose contact with the road while the skip.

Again correct, but losing grip means slower cornering.. and added tyre wear.

Your explanation lead me to change my explanation in the OP, would you like to be added as a contributor to that topic?

Thanks, but no thanks ..

Quoted from sk8er913 profile page.
Protip #2: Don't put too much steering input into a race car in real life.

Wise words, works in the game too. 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

The tire model. Camber doesn't work correctly, tire pressures are not modeled, they don't absorb and shed heat like a real tire, carcass deformation modeling doesn't seem to be there etc. They also don't simulate grip characteristics of the various eras of tires. A 1971 Ferrari has no business keeping up with modern sports cars on the track with similar specs, in large part due to the tires it would have come with. When it comes to physics in pc sim racing the tire model is the number one topic of choice and IMO, GT's biggest weakness and has a tendency to make all cars of similar specs feel very much alike. Take a look at how complex the tire simulation is in this example for reference.

Pretty sure you can lift off oversteer in GT6. Thats exactly what I do when the car oversteers too much and I want to save it from a spin - lift off. So yeah, It is there, but you cant do it with all the cars of course.

Technically, if you save a spin by lifting the throttle that's the opposite of lift-off oversteer. It would be lift-off understeer actually. If it's modeled correctly and you lift while in a state of oversteer, you should have more oversteer or spin, depending on how severe it is.

@sk8er913 you might want to clarify in the OP whether you mean "severe, moderate" etc. in relation to real physics or in relation to how much of an effect it has on gameplay. I realize the top speed issues that @YZF mentions don't affect gameplay on many tracks to a great degree as you indicated but a top speed difference of 10% or performance on track off by several hundred hp is pretty severe IMO, relative to real world physics.

 

[Bhowe83]

Oversteer is primarily non-existent at the limit of grip, which is completely wrong.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

This thread needs closing, totally pointless... just another gt bashing .

What are people expecting from a ps3 game? Of course the physics are noway near real life, but no game in existence does it anyway close.. probably not for alot of years to come.

the tyre model works fine, they wear down depending on your driving style and how you abuse them, if the rears got destroyed from hammering the fronts then i'd be complaining.

Lift off over steer works , you just have to break traction from the rear without losing it from the front else you'll under steer into a wall ..

The physics are acceptable for a 20 dollar game on an old system.

 

[Bo]

My main gripes:

• FWD cars are just buckets of understeer. The lack of any form of lift-off oversteer is extremely frustrating.
• The greatly exaggerated weight transfer that tries to give the decidedly basic physics engine a more realistic edge gives some cars, namely MR race cars, truly horrendous stability.
• The way unloaded tyres react on the track surface is extremely unrealistic. In GT6, an unloaded inside tyre will start to smoke quite a considerable amount, whereas you would only get some chatter at most in real life.

Pretty sure you can lift off oversteer in GT6. Thats exactly what I do when the car oversteers too much and I want to save it from a spin - lift off.

This doesn't make an ounce of sense. Lift off oversteer is oversteer caused by the unloading of the rear tyres under sizeable weight shift. Lifting off should only make you rotate more.

 

[NixxxoN]

ok sorry I got it the opposite way round. Yeah I thought this was about lift off understeer.

In this case I think the Ayrton Senna F3 does this.

 

[Imari]

This thread needs closing, totally pointless... just another gt bashing .

Hardly. It's a good constructive thread attempting to catalogue the major issues with the physics.

What are people expecting from a ps3 game? Of course the physics are noway near real life, but no game in existence does it anyway close.. probably not for alot of years to come.

There are plenty of games that are pretty passable simulations of real cars, once you get over the lack of g-forces throwing you around.

The physics are acceptable for a 20 dollar game on an old system.

Which is fine. If that's all they could do then so be it.

The thread isn't about nailing PD for what they got wrong, merely documenting it. I think you're taking offense to something that isn't there.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

This thread needs closing, totally pointless... just another gt bashing .

What are people expecting from a ps3 game? Of course the physics are noway near real life, but no game in existence does it anyway close.. probably not for alot of years to come.

the tyre model works fine, they wear down depending on your driving style and how you abuse them, if the rears got destroyed from hammering the fronts then i'd be complaining.

Lift off over steer works , you just have to break traction from the rear without losing it from the front else you'll under steer into a wall ..

The physics are acceptable for a 20 dollar game on an old system.

Oh Please. This sounds like "Close the thread because people are saying factual but negative things about the product I like". Criticism of a product is not against the forum rules and everyone is free to discuss, we should not close threads because you don't like what you are reading. You could just refrain from entering the thread if you don't like it.

The game was $60 at release for the basic version and more for the anniversary edition.

The tyre model and physics are fine if you don't care for accurate simulation and want to push both car and tyre beyond real world physical limits.

iracing, Live For Speed and rfactor are much older than GT6 (and even GT5), yet have more accurate simulation, and they can run on incredibly old hardware. Forza 3 managed to incorporate things like tyre flex too yet the 360 has a much a weaker CPU than the PS3. It is not the hardware's fault if PD concentrate their time and hardware budget on graphics rather than the physics. If hardware was the issue, please explain how Richard Burns Rally, a PS2 title from 2004, is still able to remain amongst the most realistic sims of it's kind 11 years later.

 

[Madatek]

Well... what do you expect, people? Despite the title "Real Driving Simulator", GT never born as a driving-sim, it's always been a game.

 

[Imari]

Well... what do you expect, people? Despite the title "Real Driving Simulator", GT never born as a driving-sim, it's always been a game.

Again, you're taking exception to something that isn't there.

But Gran Turismo markets itself as a realistic driving experience. That wasn't really that plausible in the early days of GT, although it did make more effort towards realism than most console games of the time, but modern GTs really push that realism angle and it's not unreasonable to think that they might get pretty close. In many ways, it does get pretty close.

Likewise, it's reasonable for people to document the ways in which the latest edition fails to replicate reality in a reasonable manner. If only for the reason that it's useful information for the developers. But it will also be interesting to see how many of these things are addressed in the next edition.

A serial game like Gran Turismo is a never-ending push for improvement, and it's totally OK to write down which things still need improving. If you want a thread about all the things that Gran Turismo physics does right, go make that thread.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

Oh Please. This sounds like "Close the thread because people are saying factual but negative things about the product I like". Criticism of a product is not against the forum rules and everyone is free to discuss, we should not close threads because you don't like what you are reading. You could just refrain from entering the thread if you don't like it.

The game was $60 at release for the basic version and more for the anniversary edition.

The tyre model and physics are fine if you don't care for accurate simulation and want to push both car and tyre beyond real world physical limits.

iracing, Live For Speed and rfactor are much older than GT6 (and even GT5), yet have more accurate simulation, and they can run on incredibly old hardware. Forza 3 managed to incorporate things like tyre flex too yet the 360 has a much a weaker CPU than the PS3. It is not the hardware's fault if PD concentrate their time and hardware budget on graphics rather than the physics. If hardware was the issue, please explain how Richard Burns Rally, a PS2 title from 2004, is still able to remain amongst the most realistic sims of it's kind 11 years later.

Looks like the epic moaning and whining thread to me, even got the usual premium members with the same views.. so i'd like the thread closing because its just gt bashing spam, nothing constructive or new here.