I agree completely, this is my major problem with the physics in GT as well. There are tyre and tuning issues, but the main one is the ineffectiveness of controlling the car using the throttle.
In real life on a real track, being able to control the attitude of the car in anything but a straight line is a lot about how you use the brakes and especially the throttle. I've had the pleasure of having my NA MX5 at a track day around Phillip Island, and even in such a low powered car mid-corner throttle control makes a big, big difference. Just a little lift can get the nose to tuck in at just the right moment, so that you're a bit straighter exiting the corner and faster down the straights. There's a massive stop into a really tight corner at the bottom of a hill, and it can really help stabilise the rear if you can get on the power early and get some weight on those back tyres, or the combination of downhill and braking puts all the weight on the nose and the back just goes around.
These behaviours seem to be present only sometimes in Gran Turismo and only in certain cars. And even they they're very muted, you have to make big lifts to get much reaction out of the car.
Other simulators have done this much better. I doubt that it's a computational issue, as much as it is about fixing how the tyres, suspension and chassis interact. Even a simple simulation should be able to get this behaviour at least moderately right if set up properly, and it's one of the greatest things about being able to drive a car fast once you get it.
Unfortunately, it's also one of those things that really catches out less skilled drivers, and so possibly it's been intentionally muted in order to keep Gran Turismo's general appeal.
Oddly, I've had a few experiences where I've put keen older drivers who are not gamers, like my Dad, in my rig and let them try a few different games. They find games like GT and FM the hardest, and things like iRacing and AC the easiest. Presumably because it matches up with their real life experience of driving.
I think car enthusiasts find it easier the more realistic the simulation is. I think gamers find it hard regardless of the realism if they're not into driving games, but the simpler style of physics has a lower skill floor because there's simply less things to learn. And less ways to stuff up, I suppose.
I think a simulation type game should be trying to be as accurate as possible, because the whole point is to use the same skills and techniques that you would use to drive a real car. If that then requires aids for less able players, then so be it. ABS, TC and stability control should be able to get just about anyone around a track unless they have thumbs made entirely of butter.
Nailed it
@Imari, saved me a lot of typing
Lift off over-steer in real life is both the leading factor in my competitiveness (especially at Laguna Seca) and my follies... Run up to fast on a much slower competitor in a turn, lift and snap inside spin... :/
If folks here are obsessively interested in computation vs. real world physics and the differences in games I would invite you to read my thread history from 2013, early 2014, when I was a lot more active with GT. Being a game developer for the past 22 years is what paid for most of my racing... Even some in industry sponsorship (look at my Avatar windscreen banner) so I'm smashed between both worlds.
Let me just drop this bomb, you don't want real world physics in your game, you want things to FEEL real, not actually BE real. There simply aren't effective means to compensate for the loss of the real world sensation in a 2D medium (game), not even motion rigs work quite right. We would all be lost. The goal of a game is to do things convincingly, not realistically. To achieve convincing you need to compensate for, not replicate reality. Not to mention real world physics are not absolute, computational physics are, another major challenge to over come.
Why say this? Because even real racers can over come the shortcomings of a "sim" game and get value out of it much like having to overcome a poorly set up car on race day. That being said, no GT6 does not have lift oversteer... can it happen? Yes under very specific circumstances but its not consistent nor controllable. For awhile I thought it was just me and was pleased to have felt it, but in the end I concluded it's just not there.
Allow me to add some details to what Imeri said specific to the MX-5. A well setup track Miata will always want to rotate, it's what makes them such competent track cars. Adding any deceleration by way of brakes or just engine braking enhances this desire to rotate substantially. This behavior is controlled with throttle in real life, in games its more about brakes. If the car starts stepping out you control the rate of rotation by the amount of throttle input as the more you apply the harder the rear end "squats" and the tire bites... In doing this you're controlling your angle of attack but always balancing the slip angle to ensure you don't scrub off too much speed (over rotation/sliding). All of this is done within the limits of the slip angle, beyond this its the traction circle... if you get out there you botched it and are fighting for control of the car. Its most evident at turn in, rotate sliding on the slip angle and planting the rear rounding the apex reaching full throttle well before turn exit. A great reference is watching MotoGP bikes turning aggressively, that "slide" is the same thing. Its where I learned to do it myself, I only race cars now because I'm old :/
It just gets more complicated from here but can you feel any of this in GT? Not really because its all in your butt in real life... Can you trick your brain into feeling it? YES! but its a lot of work. Games need to convey this through FFB wheels, and some quite effectively actually but its compensation. I can convince my brain to adapt as well as anyone who doesn't know any better to a sim just pretending it's a strange car setup... but when I can't make my car behave the way it uniquely does in real life in my sim it's a lot harder to trick my brain.
I hope this makes some sense, I scanned this thread and despite some of the contrary statements, many here know what they are talking about, and the ones that are "wrong" aren't really wrong as much as they don't have the context to know, and to be honest? I would rather be them, they are having more fun than those that really know... GT has a long way to go and I do believe they will get there, it's a balance challenge more than a math one. Cant believe I got this far without once mentioning tire dynamics...
Ah, before I end, GT deserves some real credit for teaching me the Nurburgring before I ran it in real life back in 2011. I credit GT for a near sub 10 minute bridge to gantry in the pouring rain in a Clio Reno RS cup car. FF cars are a whole other ball of wax... Loosing control? GAS! Rear end spinning around? GAS! Sidways? GAS! Get rear ended? GAS! Need to stop? GAS! ;o
I read your post and found it quite interesting. I have added you as in endorsement to the incorrect drag section. Because that is what I gathered from reading the post.
