F1 2010 PhysicsF1 2010-2016

[Biggles]

Sorry to start a new thread - obviously there's been a lot of discussion about this already, but scattered all over the place. Now that people have had a chance to play this game a bit, what is the consensus about the physics in this game?

Coming back after 3 weeks not playing, I tried a 40% race at Bahrain. I found I was continually spinning out at certain corners - almost as though it is prescripted. Other corners you can go hammering through, over curbs, through the gravel & the car sticks to the road like glue regardless of what you do (reminiscent of Shift).

I won't say it's not fun, but it's giving me the impression that there's not much depth to the physics. Whereas in F1CE everything you did clearly impacted your lap times in a consistent & understandable way, in F1 2010 there are a few key points where you have to get it right & other than that you're just along for the ride. Am I wrong about this?

 

[LeftyWright69]

The biggest problem I have w/ the game as far as spinning out when leaving the turn is gearing. If you are spinning out in a turn and can’t figure it out try up shifting just before you would normally have that issue so you are tracking through that part of the track and not roasting the hides. I have found that to be primary issue for spinning out under acceleration.

If your spinning out going into a turn then take away rear break and add more front brake until you can’t get the car to turn under braking then go back the other way a little bit.

 

[J-PaP]

If your spinning out going into a turn then take away rear break and add more front brake until you can’t get the car to turn under braking then go back the other way a little bit.

Trail braking works well too to help stop this.

 

[Biggles]

I'm not complaining about the spinning out - I understand it's just a question of learning where the spin-out spots are & adjusting your inputs. That doesn't seem too hard to do in this game.

The problem I have is that there are lots of other points on the track where it seems impossible to lose the grip, no matter how crazy hard you push the car. This makes me suspect that the physics are not consistently constructed in the game - what you can do at what point on the track bears no logical relationship to what you can do at some other point.

 

[t.o.]

I understand what you're saying in a logical sense but I guess it's what the car is capable of doing. I'm trying to word this correctly. Ok, no matter how hard you think you are pushing the car at points on the track you are still constrained by the degree and length of the turn and elevation etc. etc. So within those constraints there isn't anything you can do that's outside the performance index of the car. Whereas other areas are barely within the threshold of the car's performance and you really have to get it right since the car just wasn't made for that particular section of the track. So even though it may look as if you're doing nothing, it's still that little something that the car just wasn't built and configured for.

 

[Biggles]

I understand what you're saying t.o., but something just doesn't ring true about what's going on - changes of elevation, off-camber, bumps, gravel & you can just put the pedal to the floor & charge through it. For example there's a section in the middle of Bahrain with a series of S curves where it doesn't seem to make any difference what you do - the car just hugs the road regardless. It seems that there are only a handful of slow corners where the car is inclined to spin if you come in with too much speed.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

I find its application of throttle; more so in the wet.

What I find strange is how you can get out of the spin by 'stabbing' the brakes and almost always you can get the car to point in the right direction; and only losing tenths of a second.

Seems the physics 'pivots' around the center of the car; maybe result of 'tuning' perhaps as well?

Nevertheless, a fun game; especially enjoying GP with pit stops and seeing some off the cars I am racing actually pitting!

On a funny note; I was in a race at Spa and the usual first turn bowling alley. I was vaulted in the air and came down with the 2 right-side wheels hung up on the wall. I actually has to turn the wheel and switch from 1st to reverse a few times before 'falling' off the wall and rejoining the race (in last of course)!

 

[Kneedragger]

The serious view is that ideally, the game would have assists that go on top of a realistic driving model. So that however dumbed down the assists let the driving be, the basic physics would be solid. Thats not what we have with F1 2010.
The game feels programmed to deliver an emotional experience Codemasters judges to be key, and anything else can be artfully fudged. They assume all racers are going to behave a certain way, and the game is programmed to cater to behaviors ..they never assume anyone will not be trying to drive their fastest, so when you slow down on purpose, or pull over and drive slowly, suddenly it exposes some pre-programmed aspects.

In time trial this is even more true. There, they force you to drive with a ghost on track (or two ghosts if you downloaded one off the boards) ..this is because it produces an emotional response in the driver, and Codemasters seem extremely interested in manipulating behaviors or the subjective experience. Personally, I think physics play a secondary role for Codemasters, literally. Their main objective is subjective (I'm not trying to be clever)

Maybe a time trial mode that is 'pure' would be boring, or that codemasters think this is old news by now. Whatever, but I will bet cash money they instead tried to create a subjectively intense experience, and to do this they gladly sacrifice a certain amount of physics-honesty. I believe the manipulation is calculated in real time in relation to where the ghost car(s) are ..there are fluctuations in performance that occur. Codemasters treat TT mode (even) as a platform for their Live The Life brand of storytelling rather than as a clean slate where you compete.

It took me getting to #5 on the monaco boards/dry, out of 12k drivers, to eventually decide for myself what was happening. But now I think the game is crap. Crap for the very reason it seemed 'great' for the first 2 weeks. Its a false intensity they have built into the game. ANd its a falseness you cant escape or turn off. All you can do at that point is keep pretending its real. Or stop playing.
And I'm speaking only for myself about being revolted by role-playing.
Many people not only enjoy it, but see it as the reason pc and console games exist!

 

[Biggles]

I think you may be overstating it a bit Kneedragger, but fundamentally I think you're right. As with Shift, F1 2010 is a game that attempts to give you a realistic racing experience without bothering too much about the actual driving physics. This makes it immediately exciting & fun for anyone picking up the game, without them having to put too much time into mastering complex physics. Unfortunately, it limits the long-term interest for those looking for a more in-depth experience.

It's informative to try F1CE again after playing F1 2010 for a while. The first thing you notice is how heavy the FFB is in comparison. The second is the way the cars understeer straight through the turns instead of cornering like they're on rails the way they do in F1 2010. However, it also highlights the fact that in F1CE there's absolutely nothing communicated about tire grip through the FFB - something that F1 2010 actually does a much better job at. Overall, the inputs required to drive fast in F1CE are vastly more complex than in F1 2010.

 

[Kneedragger]

Overall, the inputs required to drive fast in F1CE are vastly more complex than in F1 2010.

I will have to try f1ce again ..but not in time trial mode, since in TT f1ce uses a stupid environmental lighting effect; since 'they know best' how to make it exciting. As if.

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

I dislike the slight accelation on kerbs causes you to spin keeps catching me out.

 

[Terronium-12]

I dislike the slight accelation on kerbs causes you to spin keeps catching me out.

That's mostly to due with a lowered ride height, increase the height and you'd be able to be more aggressive.

 

[Kneedragger]

It's informative to try F1CE again after playing F1 2010 for a while.

So I went back and my first strong impression was how I didnt like the motion-blur (at all), and how weedy the engine sound is in f1ce. The impression to my eyes and ears was ..it looks and sounds like a video game. And Monaco lost all the surface bumps and difficult curbs too ..asphalt is rather flat and featureless in f1ce.

I dont know if its worth the bother debating physics, but I do believe anyone who can drive fast in one game can do well with the other. I dont see a problem one way or the other. ANy good driver would adapt. But the other strong points of F1 2010 (sights/sounds) are notable compared to f1ce.
As much as I rag on Codemasters I would still choose theirs over the other. Easy.

 

[Biggles]

I like the "motion blur" in F1CE, which is quite understated, but F1 2010 definitely has the edge in presentation (as you would expect from a game that is 4 years further on). Track accuracy is, I believe, one of the strengths of F1 2010, but one of the treats in F1CE is the bumpiness of the FFB, which conveys some of the feel of piloting an F1 missile at high speed over a less than perfect surface.

It's true that fast sim drivers seem to be fast in whatever game they put their mind to, but I don't think there is the depth to F1 2010's physics that will lead to people playing it intensively for 2 or 3 years the way they did with F1CE. Nevertheless, a fun, accessible racing game, which is what they were trying to achieve IMO...

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

I believe the handling experience in F1 2010 far exceeds that in F1:CE. There's so much about it that should be applauded. You can place the car in F1 2010 like the drivers do in real life. I watch the onboard videos on the official F1 website and can apply this knowledge to my driving in F1 2010. This was never the case with F1:CE, in which I had to learn the secret to a good lap time much as you do the secrets to doing a good level in any other computer game, with barely any reference to real life. Granted, with F1 2010 the braking points are skewed because of the longer braking distances, but the way you place the car is correct and the way to get the best lap time is to kiss all the apexes, scrub off as little speed as possible, get the best traction out of the slow corners and keep on the grippy racing line - all of which is absolutely true in reality and almost none of which is the case in F1:CE. In F1:CE you had to really square the corners, as an example of what I mean watch how this driver takes turn 6, the long left hander about 25 seconds in:



This sort of gamey method of cornering doesn't work in F1 2010, which places more value on maintaining a good apex speed and finding the grip on the racing line rather than just purely how late you can brake and how early you can get on the throttle, without any coasting in between which is the be all and end all of how to drive fast in F1:CE.

Also, the car feeling like it's on rails is really what it should feel like with fresh tyres on low fuel on a rubbered in track. It's true that this is exaggerated to a degree in F1 2010 (the speed at which I was able to take the first sector in Suzuka in time trial mode with the McLaren felt distinctly unrealistic) but overall the core handling model replicates the feel and experiences of driving an F1 car far more authentically IMO than F1:CE does.


The sharpness of the FFB in F1:CE was impressive in how it replicated going over kerbs and bumps, but it wasn't really very communicative of what the car was doing underneath you - a superficial effect. So although F1:CE's FFB beats F1 2010's, it's no where near as big a deal as the core handling model which is very much inferior IMO. Not like Supercar Challenge which almost hinges on its FFB compared to the clinical, but probably more complex and accurate handling of GT5 - F1 2010 loses slightly on the FFB side but gains heavily on the basic handling side.

F1 2010's handling is probably a tad too forgiving, and I suppose it's all a matter of taste, but personally I love the overall feel of the driving experience and find it replicates what lapping an F1 car must be like much more than F1:CE does.

 

[cicohipe]

I agree with Shaggy Alonso. I remember playing F1CE a few years ago and i was very unimpressed with it. F1 2010 definitely seems to replicate things like aerodynamics, track & tyre's much better.

Also speaking about NFS Shift and F1 2010 in the same breath is just wrong. NFS Shift is an arcade game, F1 2010 is without a doubt a sim.

 

[Terronium-12]

I agree with Shaggy Alonso. I remember playing F1CE a few years ago and i was very unimpressed with it. F1 2010 definitely seems to replicate things like aerodynamics, track & tyre's much better.

Also speaking about NFS Shift and F1 2010 in the same breath is just wrong. NFS Shift is an arcade game, F1 2010 is without a doubt a sim.

Actually, Shift is a simulator it was just relieved of what it would have been after SimBin was no longer tied to the project, however, it's engine is still 100% gMotor 2 (the same engine used in GTR2, Race '07, Race Pro, GTR Evo, etc) with modifications here and there.

 

[Biggles]

Yikes! That's terrible driving in that video - not you, I assume Shaggy - so it it isn't a very good indicator of what's required to put in a fast time in F1CE. I think it's hard to put together a fast lap in F1CE because everything you do has consequences. In F1 2010 you can muscle the car from one corner quite unrealistically into the next, often with the front wheels at a totally impossible angle. I'm amazed you don't notice this Shaggy.

I actually feel the FFB is pretty good in F1 2010, albeit a bit light. The FFB in F1CE does a great job of conveying the bumpiness of driving a car with very firm suspension sitting a few inches off the ground, but as I've said already, it gives almost no sense of what the tires are doing.

F1 2010 gives a good sense of the speed & excitement of racing an F1 car might be like, but with the "sim difficulty" largely removed, which is exactly what CM were aiming at IMO. I submit this famous Top Gear episode as reference ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGUZJVY-sHo&feature=player_embedded

 

[Bleached]

Coming back after 3 weeks not playing, I tried a 40% race at Bahrain. I found I was continually spinning out at certain corners - almost as though it is prescripted. Other corners you can go hammering through, over curbs, through the gravel & the car sticks to the road like glue regardless of what you do (reminiscent of Shift).

I would say just the opposite. Certain corners in F1:CE seemed like scripted spin points. Turn 2 at Malaysia and turn 4 at Turkey come irritatingly to mind. Where as I have seen a very consistent physics in all corners in F1 2010.

 

[Biggles]

Both F1CE & F1 2010 have what feel like "scripted" spin points. In both games it's necessary to learn those "spin points" & adjust accordingly.

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

Actually, Shift is a simulator it was just relieved of what it would have been after SimBin was no longer tied to the project, however, it's engine is still 100% gMotor 2 (the same engine used in GTR2, Race '07, Race Pro, GTR Evo, etc) with modifications here and there.

Its true that shift have a realistic base engine, but the developers of shift have said that they changed some parameters in the engine to make it less hardcore and more “fun“. Is that what you call a simulator?

 

[Terronium-12]

Its true that shift have a realistic base engine, but the developers of shift have said that they changed some parameters in the engine to make it less hardcore and more “fun“.

Now, call me crazy, but are you or are you not repeating pretty much what I just said in the previous post?

Is that what you call a simulator?

Since when was it against the law for a simulator (read: a video game) to put fun-factor above anything else? It's a video game, if being fun is wrong, then why are you even playing a game in the first place? As for a direct answer - yes, that's what I'd call a simulator. Somehow, at some point, the notion arose that in order for a simulator to be "hardcore" the cars have to be virtually impossible to drive unless you have pinpoint accuracy 100% of the time, and let me tell you, if that were the case...yeah, a lot of people wouldn't be driving.

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

Now, call me crazy, but are you or are you not repeating pretty much what I just said in the previous post?



Since when was it against the law for a simulator (read: a video game) to put fun-factor above anything else? It's a video game, if being fun is wrong, then why are you even playing a game in the first place? As for a direct answer - yes, that's what I'd call a simulator. Somehow, at some point, the notion arose that in order for a simulator to be "hardcore" the cars have to be virtually impossible to drive unless you have pinpoint accuracy 100% of the time, and let me tell you, if that were the case...yeah, a lot of people wouldn't be driving.

I guess we have a different opinion on what a sim is. If a game developer change some things in the game engine to make thing easyer and more forgiving, then its not a sim anymore in my eyes.

 

[Shaun]

I would say just the opposite. Certain corners in F1:CE seemed like scripted spin points. Turn 2 at Malaysia and turn 4 at Turkey come irritatingly to mind. Where as I have seen a very consistent physics in all corners in F1 2010.

I'll definatly agree with you there.

Turn 2 at Malaysia was just rediculous IMO.

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

Yikes! That's terrible driving in that video - not you, I assume Shaggy - so it it isn't a very good indicator of what's required to put in a fast time in F1CE. I think it's hard to put together a fast lap in F1CE because everything you do has consequences. In F1 2010 you can muscle the car from one corner quite unrealistically into the next, often with the front wheels at a totally impossible angle. I'm amazed you don't notice this Shaggy.

I actually feel the FFB is pretty good in F1 2010, albeit a bit light. The FFB in F1CE does a great job of conveying the bumpiness of driving a car with very firm suspension sitting a few inches off the ground, but as I've said already, it gives almost no sense of what the tires are doing.

F1 2010 gives a good sense of the speed & excitement of racing an F1 car might be like, but with the "sim difficulty" largely removed, which is exactly what CM were aiming at IMO. I submit this famous Top Gear episode as reference ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGUZJVY-sHo&feature=player_embedded

Au contraire , that guy xALONZOx is one of the top F1:CE racers online, a good 1-2 seconds quicker than I was, and all the top guys drove in that manner - mega late braking, deliberately going wide to square the corners and get on full throttle earlier with no throttle modulation whatsoever in between and barely any coasting. Another example of what I mean is this:



The key is turn 12 (the third last corner), where he deliberately goes wide to get on full throttle earlier for the following corner.

This is a decent lap of the same track in F1 2010:



He takes that corner similarly to how I would, if anything he lost a little bit of time going slightly wide there, rather than probably gaining time as he would have in F1:CE.

And here is the final reference to the real thing:



F1 2010 requires you to hug the corners as is the case in real life by applying the right amount of throttle. F1:CE just doesn't operate in this way. Asides from all of this, I think the handling in the F1 2010 lap generally looks a lot closer to the Webber lap than the F1:CE lap, which I assure you is a seriously quick lap time in that game where he's left practically nothing on the table.

I don't want to overstate my case, and i'm just using this as one particular example of the wider picture. You can drive in a realistic manner in F1:CE if you want to, but you're actually losing time in doing so.

I hear your point about muscling the cars into corners with the wheels pointed in impossible angles, but as you can see from the above lap (which I believe would be a top 20 lap time on the leaderboards) he doesn't do this because although you can do it, in doing so you're scrubbing off an excessive amount of speed - it's still quicker to take smoother lines through a corner.

The Top Gear lap that Hammond did was a brutal insight into what it is like for a total novice to be put into an F1 car, and I'm not trying to say F1 2010 is realistic in terms of its accessibility. However that is one end of the spectrum. What I mean is that when you're driving on the limit within the game, it handles a lot more closely to real life than what F1:CE does. It allows us mere mortals to drive these cars and place them in a similar way to as you see on tv.

I've posted this before in another thread but I think it merits being posted again:


Just a few quotes:

"I feel incredibly confident in this car, it's like it's on rails. Not too much problem without traction control, I expected the car to slide more"

"It's always a pleasure to drive these latest Formula One cars, they're just an extension of your body. They're so instinctive and easy to drive in many respects."

I would say F1 2010 ticks all of these boxes. So in conclusion, if the game has to be judged on how closely it makes you feel like an F1 driver (and i'm not referring to the 'live the life' stuff in the paddock), F1 2010 succeeds in a big way. But in terms of absolute realism of the physics, it's probably just as far off real life as F1:CE was.

 

[Biggles]

Well, I'm gutted! I don't drive anything like that in F1CE - now I know why I'm so slow!

I've always said F1CE has a rather digital quality to the physics - on & off. I have always attempted to make my driving fluid - part of the skill in F1CE was taking that digital template & trying to make it flow - smooth steering, brake & throttle transitions. NOW I find out that isn't the way to be quick around the track (my right-foot braking is a handicap, I believe)!

In comparison, F1 2010 has a much more organic, intuitive feel. However, I stand by the opinion that the high speed cornering in F1 2010 is way too forgiving to be "sim". It's reminiscent of Shift in the way the car continues to grip beyond what is physically reasonable. This super grip is covered up partly by the fact that IRL F1 cars do have extraordinary high speed grip, but in F1 2010 there's just way too much latitude - surely a deliberate choice by CM to make the game more accessible.

I guess we have a different opinion on what a sim is. If a game developer change some things in the game engine to make thing easyer and more forgiving, then its not a sim anymore in my eyes.

I really don't think there's a default "sim game engine". Each developer approaches it differently. Each game seems to have it's own strengths & weaknesses. In the case of F1 2010, where the game really shines (aside from a few significant bugs), is in the implementation of AI.

 

[JackC8]

I've noticed the same thing as the rest of you - some corners are just so much slipperier than anything else on the track, beyond what one would expect from any sort of real world physics. The worst I've experienced so far is turn 3 at Melbourne - I'll be 40 laps into a race, really in tune with the car and haw far I can push it, and then you get to that corner and everything is out the window.

I'm only on my 5th race in season 1, so maybe it's just that I'm using a slow, poorly handling car, but when I watch those on-board camera videos at the F1 2010 site, lol...if I gave the car half that much throttle exiting corners I'd be spinning around like a Frisbee. I hope that as I progress through the seasons the driving experience will get a little closer to reality.

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

Well, I'm gutted! I don't drive anything like that in F1CE - now I know why I'm so slow!

I've always said F1CE has a rather digital quality to the physics - on & off. I have always attempted to make my driving fluid - part of the skill in F1CE was taking that digital template & trying to make it flow - smooth steering, brake & throttle transitions. NOW I find out that isn't the way to be quick around the track (my right-foot braking is a handicap, I believe)!

In comparison, F1 2010 has a much more organic, intuitive feel. However, I stand by the opinion that the high speed cornering in F1 2010 is way too forgiving to be "sim". It's reminiscent of Shift in the way the car continues to grip beyond what is physically reasonable. This super grip is covered up partly by the fact that IRL F1 cars do have extraordinary high speed grip, but in F1 2010 there's just way too much latitude - surely a deliberate choice by CM to make the game more accessible.



I really don't think there's a default "sim game engine". Each developer approaches it differently. Each game seems to have it's own strengths & weaknesses. In the case of F1 2010, where the game really shines (aside from a few significant bugs), is in the implementation of AI.

I know Peter, I was gutted too when I saw these onboard laps and looked at the lap times. The difference between us and those guys is that I imagine that you and I apply our knowledge of real life racing to our driving which gets you so far, but the 'aliens' among us aren't bound by these rules and instead drive by their own rules, exploiting the game's physics to the maximum rather than driving fast as you imagine it would be done in the real world. Even still, it all just comes down to a matter of talent, as all the same aces from F1:CE - Alonzo, Pollero and Digiprost amongst others - are the same guys dominating the time trial leaderboards in F1 2010.

I'm considerably closer to them in F1 2010 for some reason though. Generally speaking i'm within a second of the best lap time at most tracks. Bizarrely last I checked I still had the fastest non assisted dry lap at Spa on the PS3 leaderboards, still only good enough for 13th or so overall. Personally I put this down to the fact that F1 2010's handling feels so much more natural to me, whereas F1:CE felt more like I was adapting to its particular set of demands. Has to be said that Supercar Challenge, F1:CE and GT5P all felt like that to me. With F1 2010 I noticed that I was up to speed almost immediately. The fact that i'm a massive Formula One fan has to have helped!

One thing I would suggest Peter if you're not enjoying the sometimes exaggerated grip in F1 2010 is to race with the bottom three teams. Their grip levels seem more in tune with what the top teams would be like in real life, whereas the McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull are all just completely off the chart.

 

[Kneedragger]

Bizarrely last I checked I still had the fastest non assisted dry lap at Spa on the PS3 leaderboards, still only good enough for 13th or so overall.

Thats a good lap, pal. 13th with TC off is plenty fast.
I also havent checked lately at all, but tracks like Bahrain, Monaco, Spa, and some others have towards 15k people on the board, while some have only half that many. And thanks for those video links earlier. I'm guessing you are happy to at least have fairly reliable LB's to post times to instead of the mess that was the F1ce system.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Since the patch the feel of the physics has changed for me. Enjoying it more! (G25 on PS3)

Gradual loss of grip; or the beginning of a slide, is possible now 👍; before it would snap into a spin and snap right out when you 'stabbed' the brakes.

Anyone else notice a difference in FFB and physics 'feel'?