F1 Driver Titles: Who should have really won one or more titles?

[J_Starscream]

I've had a little look around and haven't found a thread on this topic. If there is, please correct me and direct me to where it is and I apologise for duplication. 👍

Basically, this thread is dedicated to discussing who should have won a world championship and who should have won more world championships than they already have.

I am going to start off with Alain Prost. I believe he should have won six titles, adding 1984 and 1988. Here's how:

• Had the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix continued to the end. Senna would have eventually passed Prost and the Frenchman would have settled for 2nd, giving him 6 points instead of 4.5. With Lauda out of the race, this would have given Prost the championship by a mere 1 point with 73 points over Lauda's 72. An alternative is that Senna's car may have dropped out of the race with suspension damage, handing the lead and eventual race win to Prost, achieving a full 9 points and finish 3 points clear of Lauda in the standings.

• The 1988 season rules included that only the best 11 results counted out of the 16 races. Had this rule not been in place, Prost would have beaten Senna to the title by 11 points, having 105 and Senna 94 respectively.

In no other seasons could Prost have won another title under different circumstances. 1990 would have been close but without the 11 best of 16 rule, Prost would have fell short of Senna by 6 points.

So, I believe Prost should have 6 titles (1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989 and 1993) whereas Lauda and Senna would only have two a-piece.

I would like to hear other people's opinions on what could be different and why.


EDIT: @daan pointed out that Bellof could have finished 2nd, knocking Prost to 3rd and 4 points, essentially losing him a title. Before Bellof and the Tyrrell team are disqualified from the championship.

 

[TenEightyOne]

This thread

 

[daan]

Had the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix continued to the end. Senna would have eventually passed Prost and the Frenchman would have settled for 2nd, giving him 6 points instead of 4.5. With Lauda out of the race, this would have given Prost the championship by a mere 1 point with 73 points over Lauda's 72.

Had the '84 Monaco GP continued to to the end, Bellof would have passed both of them, leaving Prost in 3rd with 4 points, therefore still losing the championship to Lauda.

This thread

What does that thread have to do with this thread?

 

[J_Starscream]

Had the '84 Monaco GP continued to to the end, Bellof would have passed both of them, leaving Prost in 3rd with 4 points, therefore still losing the championship to Lauda.

Oh lord! I forgot about that, Bellof was actually catching Senna, too!

 

[Dave Beerman]

wasn't bellof disqualified after the race for an illegal car and his team banned for the rest of the season?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Had the '84 Monaco GP continued to to the end, Bellof would have passed both of them, leaving Prost in 3rd with 4 points, therefore still losing the championship to Lauda.

I think the same as @Dave Beerman... if Bellof had passed then his DSQ would have neutralised his position.

What does that thread have to do with this thread?

Fair do's, I thought it went to the themes of that thread which include "the greatest F1 drivers outside the stats". No worries

 

[DK]

On top of that, Senna's car had terminal suspension damage from taking a kerb too harshly. It would have lasted a handful of laps more before failing.

 

[J_Starscream]

Had the '84 Monaco GP continued to to the end, Bellof would have passed both of them, leaving Prost in 3rd with 4 points, therefore still losing the championship to Lauda.

wasn't bellof disqualified after the race for an illegal car and his team banned for the rest of the season?

On top of that, Senna's car had terminal suspension damage from taking a kerb too harshly. It would have lasted a handful of laps more before failing.

So basically, Prost would have most likely won the race along with the title anyway?

 

[daan]

wasn't bellof disqualified after the race for an illegal car and his team banned for the rest of the season?

On top of that, Senna's car had terminal suspension damage from taking a kerb too harshly. It would have lasted a handful of laps more before failing.

Yes, to both of them, but we're doing what ifs...

 

[J_Starscream]

Yes, to both of them, but we're doing what ifs...

The Tyrrell team were running their illegal parts for the entire season up until Dallas (where they were found out). So, had Senna won or not, Prost would have taken the title had the race gone to the end. 👍

 

[Carbonox]

So, I believe Prost should have 6 titles (1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989 and 1993) whereas Lauda and Senna would only have two a-piece.

Well, if we're playing the coulda-shoulda game, then let's go whole hog and note that Lauda would still have 3 titles, because I think it's obvious that without his Nürburgring crash, he would've easily been champion in 1976.

Though that brings us to a whole new level of speculation since if he had won that title, Enzo Ferrari wouldn't have been enraged by his actions and he could've stayed with the team longer after 1977, possibly even never going on a break from the sport and winning potential championships in their cars in 1979, 1982 or 1983... but maybe I'm taking it too far now.

 

[J_Starscream]

Well, if we're playing the coulda-shoulda game, then let's go whole hog and note that Lauda would still have 3 titles, because I think it's obvious that without his Nürburgring crash, he would've easily been champion in 1976.

That's a good one! I'd probably agree with you there! Missing two races and finishing runner-up by one point - that's just common sense!

Though that brings us to a whole new level of speculation since if he had won that title, Enzo Ferrari wouldn't have been enraged by his actions and he could've stayed with the team longer after 1977, possibly even never going on a break from the sport and winning potential championships in their cars in 1979, 1982 or 1983... but maybe I'm taking it too far now.

That will always stay speculation because we'd never know what could have happened, but I do believe this may have happened (with a pinch of salt obviously ).

 

[Jimlaad43]

The most notorious person for this is Fernando Alonso.
2007: Maybe without something like the Japan crash, he would have been Champ then. (Obviously, Hamilton as well should have been champ without the China crash and Brazil gearbox fail)
2010: If he could have passed Petrov, he would have been quick enough to get the points to take the title there.
2012: If Vettel's car had been more damaged in the 1st lap crash, he would have been champion.

 

[Famine]

It's worth looking at alternative points systems for this.

For instance, if we recalculate all seasons to the current system:
Graham Hill and Stirling Moss gain titles off Surtees and Hawthorn
Niki Lauda beats Hunt to 1976, so taking three successive titles
Prost beats Piquet on countback in 1983, then again by 4.5pt in 1984 and takes 1988 off Senna - for seven titles in total
Damon Hill beat Schumacher in 1994 - by 16pt! - so Schumacher drops to six titles
Eddie Irvine is world champion in 1999, over Hakkinen

 

[J_Starscream]

It's worth looking at alternative points systems for this.

For instance, if we recalculate all seasons to the current system:
Graham Hill and Stirling Moss gain titles off Surtees and Hawthorn
Niki Lauda beats Hunt to 1976, so taking three successive titles
Prost beats Piquet on countback in 1983, then again by 4.5pt in 1984 and takes 1988 off Senna - for seven titles in total
Damon Hill beat Schumacher in 1994 - by 16pt! - so Schumacher drops to six titles
Eddie Irvine is world champion in 1999, over Hakkinen

That's a good insight!

 

[Carbonox]

It's worth looking at alternative points systems for this.

For instance, if we recalculate all seasons to the current system:
Graham Hill and Stirling Moss gain titles off Surtees and Hawthorn
Niki Lauda beats Hunt to 1976, so taking three successive titles
Prost beats Piquet on countback in 1983, then again by 4.5pt in 1984 and takes 1988 off Senna - for seven titles in total
Damon Hill beat Schumacher in 1994 - by 16pt! - so Schumacher drops to six titles
Eddie Irvine is world champion in 1999, over Hakkinen

Though if an alternate system was in place, the drivers also would've raced differently.

 

[ShiftingGears]

wasn't bellof disqualified after the race for an illegal car and his team banned for the rest of the season?

Not after Monaco. They were retroactively disqualified from all the races after the Detroit Grand Prix. They were banned from the last three races of the season.

 

[Mike Rotch]

2012: If Vettel's car had been more damaged in the 1st lap crash, he would have been champion.

Or if not for Grojean at Belgium....

 

[Famine]

Though if an alternate system was in place, the drivers also would've raced differently.

That might be true of something like Schumacher taking Hill out at Adelaide - he was behind in the points, so wouldn't gain from both drivers failing to finish - or a driver trying to get the last point in 10th rather than 6th, but by and large it's only vaguely relevant.


A few titles were won by discounting races, notably John Surtees's win in 1964 and Ayrton Senna's in 1988.

In 1964 only the best 6 finishes were counted. Graham Hill scored 41pt and Surtees only 40pt, but Hill's best six races were 39pt (1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th) to Surtees's 40pt (1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd) so Surtees won.

It was similar with Prost and Senna in 1988, but with a much bigger gap. Prost scored 105pt across the season to Senna's 94pt, but only the best 11 finishes counted. Prost finished 14 of the 16 races and always either 1st or 2nd, so he lost 18 points from this (3 second place finishes), while Senna got to lose one retirement, one disqualification (his home GP!), a 10th in Italy, a 6th in Portugal and a 4th from Spain, to finish with 90pt, ahead of Prost's 87pt...


I have, incidentally, converted all F1 races ever into all points systems ever.

 

[Com Fox]

Felipe Massa. If it wasn't for the final overtake Hamilton did. Shame too, I really do think Massa is deserving of a title.

 

[Liquid]

Moss and Collins deserved titles in 1958 and 1956 respectively. Collins even gave up his car for Fangio so Fangio could win the title.

As discussed, Prost in 1984 and 1988.

Schumacher in 1997. Far superior driver to Villeneuve, let down by a bad overall package and his own mistake at Jerez.

I'm not so sure about whether he deserves it but Eddie Irvine definitely should have won in 1999. And I'm still not convinced to this day that Ferrari didn't have some minor sabotage against their own driver but it's only a mild murmur on the sliding scale of things which irk me. Maranello broke the bank to sign Schumacher; he was always the one destined to deliver that first title since 1979. The phantom wheel at Nürburgring will forever be a mystery.

From a fanboy perspective, Barrichello in 2009. More than anything.

Alonso has been the biggest misuse of talent in the history of F1.

 

[ButtKick]

I believe my Hero Jim Clark easily could have won another 3 titles Bringing his total to 5. Tying Fangio.

In 1962 Had the car been more reliable Jim Clark could have won the Drivers title, He either had issues or won.
They chose the champion from your top 6 finishes, Jim Clark only finished 5 races in 1962. 3 wins, a 4th and a 9th.
The 9th came in a race where he led the first 11 laps at one of his best tracks Zandvoort. It looked like an easy win until the car had reliability issues and he finished 10 laps down in 9th. That's just 1 example of the 5 races plagued with reliability in 1962.
However that is the price of driving the innovations of Colin Chapman, Your either going to win or break.

in 1964 He had the most wins at 3 and had it not been for the reliability he may have won the Drivers Title in 1964 as well.

In 1968 Had he not died in the Formula 2 race in Hockenheim, I think without a doubt he would have won the Drivers Title. As he won the opening race of the season in the Lotus 49. While it wasnt a Grand Slam, in his last F1 race he managed to Win the Pole, Set the Fastest Lap and Win the Race. This race was the season opener at Kylami the 1968 South African Grand Prix.