FFs cars. Naturally handicapped against FRs?

[Lucas]

Please, forgive me if this kind of thread has been discussed before.
Now on to the subject:

While testing my Spoon Civic Type-R in Nurburgring's 4-Hour race, problems started way before the race did. The Civic's tendency to understeer, compared to my previous experiences with Front Engine-Rear Wheel drive cars, began playing games with my mind. I was entering the corners way too fast than I should do, but way too slow that I am used to.
Acceleration in this car was nothing than a mere problem, that is, nothing that a pair of well-trained fingers can't overcome.
Anyways, halfway through the first lap, I abandoned the race.
Clearly, I was not as persistent as some of you guys may be.

Can't blame this on the car, but maybe, can do it on the drivetrain.
The point of the thread resumes to the next sentence:

Do Front-Engine Front-Wheel drive cars are naturally handicapped against Front-Engine Rear-Wheel drive cars?
By handicapped I mean, that is, a FF car against an FR car, same power, same weight, same road conditions and track, will always lose. Driver factor is not a variable, asuming the driver is the same.

Thank you so much for your attention.
Codename L.

 

[PARAGON GT]

In so many words. Yes.
Being a N/A engine really has nothing to do with it. Its all in the drivetrain.

For many reasons FF cars are handicapped.
Tire wear, balance, traction.
Its very easy to overload a FF car when taking a turn.

Spot races are fine, but endurance races will be a hold lot more difficult because of these factors.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it will take a good amount of tuning, and you will have to bend your driving style to accommodate a FF cars weaknesses.

 

[Lucas]

Yes, tire wear was something I completely forgot about. Natural understeer + Tire understeer = FAIL.
FR cars = Natural oversteer + Tire oversteer = EPIC WIN.
In my opinion, a controllable oversteer is better than an uncontrolled understeer.
I don't know where I got that line from, but should I guess, it would be Initial=D

 

[Smallhorses]

Tyre wear can be compensated for by switching the front tyres for a harder compound.
It is possible to win Nurburgring 4hr Endurance in a completely unmodified Spoon Civic Type R, just fit S1 (Sports Hard) tyres on the front, and it's plenty fast enough to work, even with having to pit every 3 laps. I know because I've done it.

Here's a report that I wrote of just such a race which you may find useful for hints & tips.

 

[Lucas]

Softer tires on the rear for more wear and increased oversteer, I guess?
Or only to balance the wear between front and rear?

 

[Smallhorses]

Or only to balance the wear between front and rear?

Just to balance the tyrewear! Although it still wore out the S1 fronts before the S3 rears!!!

Fitting softer, grippier tyres at the rear is less likely to give more oversteer as it means the back end is less likely to break grip.

 

[Lucas]

What I meant is, with grippier tires in the rear, they should lose grip faster, then the oversteer starts as the rear tires don't have any grip. But in FFs, this doesn't seem to be the norm XD And I don't think harder compound on the rear than on the front will help, or would it?

 

[Smallhorses]

So you mean that in theory the softer, grippier tyres should wear faster, and once they're worn then they lose grip, giving rise to oversteer?

I suppose that's true in theory, but in the way that tyrewear is modelled in GT4, that's unlikely to happen as the fronts wear through rubber much, much faster than rears do on an FF drivetrain. (And in many 4WD drivetrains too!)

In the case of my race report, the S1 fronts are starting to go red/orange (very slippery) at the end of 3 laps, while the S3 rears were still yellow/green (optimally grippy)!

 

[Lucas]

Thanks for your advice, Smallhorses. Your report has motivated me to continue with the Spoon Civic, albeit I will buy a new one, with no mods at all, like yours. And it will stay that way!

Codename L.

 

[mafia_boy]

In GT4 it's a give in that you will be slower in an FF than an FR with the same power/torque/weight stats. Traction is the main problem or lack thereof. On a standing start you're giving up a minimum of 2 seconds to any decently tuned FR in the first 400m alone. This continues most times around the corners. Understeer/Oversteer can be fixed up with the correct suspension and LSD settings.

This being said, you can still get under 7.30 around the 'ring with a decently tuned FF and consistent sub-8min laps for enduros which is more than enough for the 4hr enduro, the fastest car in the one I recently did again (NSX Type R '02) goes around in the high 7.50 to low 8.00 range which I was able to easily take care of. But my car (S14 Silvia Q's) is a freak, it's an FR that wears out S1's on the front quicker than S2's on the rear after 4 laps!!

 

[Rotary Junkie]

But my car (S14 Silvia Q's) is a freak, it's an FR that wears out S1's on the front quicker than S2's on the rear after 4 laps!!

Yeah, you tuned it wrong

Toe = more tire wear, and it's an S14 to start with so it already noms fronts...

 

[mafia_boy]

Shut up you. I'll continue that last comment on TCv4 discussion.

 

[balang_479]

in real life though, same power and weight (up to a certain power 160hp or something) FFs seem to be better... like the Amuse S2000 and civic type-rr, the civic is much faster, and faster than a new M3 round Tsukuba...
GT4 really handicapped the FFs, even though they should be much better..

 

[EA11R]

That is true. With low power, FFs' understeer stops being horrid and starts being reassuring, so you can constantly push the car. Rear-wheel-drives, meanwhile, must always be driven with a bit of gentleness to avoid speed-sapping (but still delightful) oversteer.

Example: A Honda Fit Sport slaloms more quickly than a Ferrari F430.

 

[sukerkin]

in real life though, same power and weight (up to a certain power 160hp or something) FFs seem to be better... like the Amuse S2000 and civic type-rr, the civic is much faster, and faster than a new M3 round Tsukuba...
GT4 really handicapped the FFs, even though they should be much better..

Where did you read or discover this, Balang?

I ask because it contradicts everything I thought I knew about motorsports. There is a reason why FF is not used as a viable drivetrain in racing above the level of low-end 'touring' cars.

 

[niky]

And he said "Up to 160 hp"... where "low level" touring cars can be anywhere between 200-260 hp.

Of course,for a Civic to be faster than an M3 around a racetrack would require the Civic to be a purpose built track-car on slicks. The Mugen Civic IS a match or is faster than an S2000 (depending on the track and conditions) on the same tires and with the same power, though... but that's down to the newness of the chassis in comparison to the S2000.

GT4's problem is the modelling of oversteer. GT4 made it related to weight balance, and fails to reflect the fact that front-heavy cars can "snap" oversteer in corners... which makes tuning and racing front-drivers difficult. Add to that the fact that stiffening the rear in GT4 merely makes it grip harder, when in real-life, stiffening the rear anti-roll bar is a cure for endemic understeer.

And let's not get into the fact that, aside from jumps, GT4 does NOT model wheel hop and tire patter correctly, which leads to even more understeer... and the fact that you can't change tire sizes (mixing wider front and narrower rears does wonders for FWD handling)... etcetera etcetera ad nauseum.

 

[sukerkin]

I can't tell if you're scorning me or agreeing with me in your first above, Niky?

Just to elaborate, the 'highest level' racing event that I know of that uses FF cars is the BTCC.

You make good points about some of the well known physics engine 'quirks' in GT4 by the way.

 

[Skygrasper550]

i hate what they've done to the FF cars in the game.., i can't drive my Spoon Civic well enough..,

I've seen the WTCC few times, and I saw Seat Ibiza's not giving up without a fight over the BMW 3-series' .., wish I could do the same in GT4, but nooooooo.., 👎👎

 

[DK]

In so many words. Yes.
Being a N/A engine really has nothing to do with it. Its all in the drivetrain.

For many reasons FF cars are handicapped.
Tire wear, balance, traction.
Its very easy to overload a FF car when taking a turn.

Spot races are fine, but endurance races will be a hold lot more difficult because of these factors.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it will take a good amount of tuning, and you will have to bend your driving style to accommodate a FF cars weaknesses.

So true, PARAGON GT. There's no such thing is a cool front-wheel drive car. Honda Civics...well, if you go into North Dublin in one they will try and rob it. It's the only place where it is seen as cool. Besides, guess who make front-wheel drive cars ALL the damn time? KIA. Yes, those losers.

 

[Lucas]

So many cool FF cars to choose, but I have to stay with my Elise only because of their damn handling.
=drifting24/7=: You are right! The Spoon Civic is such a cool car, too bad it's not enough sometimes

 

[balang_479]

And he said "Up to 160 hp"... where "low level" touring cars can be anywhere between 200-260 hp.

Of course,for a Civic to be faster than an M3 around a racetrack would require the Civic to be a purpose built track-car on slicks. The Mugen Civic IS a match or is faster than an S2000 (depending on the track and conditions) on the same tires and with the same power, though... but that's down to the newness of the chassis in comparison to the S2000.

GT4's problem is the modelling of oversteer. GT4 made it related to weight balance, and fails to reflect the fact that front-heavy cars can "snap" oversteer in corners... which makes tuning and racing front-drivers difficult. Add to that the fact that stiffening the rear in GT4 merely makes it grip harder, when in real-life, stiffening the rear anti-roll bar is a cure for endemic understeer.

And let's not get into the fact that, aside from jumps, GT4 does NOT model wheel hop and tire patter correctly, which leads to even more understeer... and the fact that you can't change tire sizes (mixing wider front and narrower rears does wonders for FWD handling)... etcetera etcetera ad nauseum.

The production version Mugen Civic Tyoe-RR is only a second slower then the new M3 sedan or even the Ferrari F50 round Tsukuba (i got it wrong), if you watch Best Motoring videos you might have caught it..
heres a link:
http://fastestlaps.com/track3.html

this link really shows how high up the Mugen is compared to other FR more powerful cars, and the Mugen has full interior and everything.. (its N.45)

 

[EA11R]

So true, PARAGON GT. There's no such thing is a cool front-wheel drive car. Honda Civics...well, if you go into North Dublin in one they will try and rob it. It's the only place where it is seen as cool. Besides, guess who make front-wheel drive cars ALL the damn time? KIA. Yes, those losers.

And Mini! Don't forget them too!

Civics are pretty cool here in Southern California... They're everywhere. I've counted: I average 20 Civics/mile going round my suburban habitat.

 

[niky]

I can't tell if you're scorning me or agreeing with me in your first above, Niky?

Just to elaborate, the 'highest level' racing event that I know of that uses FF cars is the BTCC.

You make good points about some of the well known physics engine 'quirks' in GT4 by the way.

I'm just saying that what he's saying doesn't contradict it... since he mentioned that FF's advantages are at low power and weight, and many touring cars are at the 260+ hp level. FWD is used in BTCC, WTCC and the SCCA Touring class in the US (mhmmm... 260 hp naturally aspirated 2 liters... mhmmmm). Lotus thought the same thing, too, when they built the second-generation Lotus Elan. They tried it and figured that for low-powered sportscars, they could make a FWD platform handle better 90% of the time than a RWD platform, simply because they could push the handling envelope out.

I actually used to think the M100 Elan was a cynical marketing exercise, especially since it shared 1.6 liter engines with the FWD Isuzu Impulse, which also had the turbo and equal length half-shafts, but the reality is they spent quite a lot on the car, making it with its own spaceframe backbone and a designed-from-the-ground-up double-wishbone suspension all-around. It was cited as probably one of the best-handling cars of its time.

Flopped in the market. Most people weren't willing to accept the idea of a bespoke FWD sportscar for two to three times as much as a Mazda Miata.

So true, PARAGON GT. There's no such thing is a cool front-wheel drive car. Honda Civics...well, if you go into North Dublin in one they will try and rob it. It's the only place where it is seen as cool. Besides, guess who make front-wheel drive cars ALL the damn time? KIA. Yes, those losers.

LOLOLOL... yeah... those losers... oh, you've never driven a Kia Sorento or the first generation Kia Sportage, have you? That's rear-wheel drive... or four, depending on trim. I guess they're not real Kias!

Oh, and the Tata Nano is RWD... that's epic cool. Totally. It's a four-seat rear-engined supercar for really cheap!

Add to the really uncool cars of the world... the Mini (as has been said), the Honda Integra (really, it's a piece of poop... FWD, Civic engines and no turbos? Sad... ...who cares if people rank it as one of the best handling cars of all time? It's a Honda!), The Renault Clio Williams, the Peugeot 106 Rallye... dear Lordy, such terrible, terrible cars!

----

To play the other side of the coin... the Type RR against big rear-drivers is not like-to-like. The Type RR comes on R-compound street tires, worth two or three seconds on track... plus a tuned sports-suspension. To compare it like-to-like, you'd have to put it up against the new 2.2 S2000CR, preferably on the same tires. I'll admit, though, that that really is an outstanding performance, considering it's only a few tenths slower than a Nismo Z.

But then, tire technology is the leveling factor in the performance playing field... new tire technology, suspension design and differential design (and programming) are removing many of the disadvantages of FWD cars in the 200-300 hp range in terms of performance. Currently, 400 hp is still a hurdle too far without R-compound tires, but they're getting close. Ford is about ready to release a 300 hp FWD Focus RS. I expect it'll be epic.

 

[sukerkin]

Good elaborations, Niky; thanks indeed.

There were some points there, about how the evolution in hardware design in recent years has changed how FF's can perform, that I had not given fair weight to previously.

I don't want to come across as being far too serious on this issue (despite what my signature says {}) but are there verifiable sources that can support such statements as the Integra being widely regarded as one of the best handling cars in the world? I'd be interested in reading them, especially if there is an engineering component to the articles (no pun intended).

 

[niky]

The Integra is acknowledged by reviewers as one of the best-handling cars around. It's by no means "scientific", as handling itself and the description of handling is a very subjective thing and not solely to deal with the absolute numbers, but with a variety of factors that affect how the car interacts with the driver. If handling were all about cornering limits, then a stock Camry (which, by the way, isn't a great front-driver... not by a long-shot) on R-comps with a big wing would beat most supercars in the handling department.

There are a few "best handling" articles from press available on-line... one from Road and Track, "Great Grip!" wherein they included a version of my car, the Mazda MP3 among their "8 best", the Evo "Greatest Driver's Cars" test... where the Integra is the only "common"car in a field of supercars. Both good reads.

I'm not one of those wild-eyed idealists who will say that FWD beats all! But properly executed, a FWD car can be just as competent, and in some cases, can be even more engaging to drive. The one and only disadvantage of FWD is power understeer and less drive-traction. All the rest is a function of suspension design and execution.

 

[PARAGON GT]

So many cool FF cars to choose, but I have to stay with my Elise only because of their damn handling.
=drifting24/7=: You are right! The Spoon Civic is such a cool car, too bad it's not enough sometimes

Um . . . The Elise has a "MR" Drivetrain. (Mid engine, rear wheel drive.)

 

[Austin343]

He knows that. He's saying he loves FFs and GT4 has a lot of cool ones, but they handle so badly in the game that the Elise is all that he can win with.

 

[Lucas]

Austin343, you are the closest one of the two (you and PARAGON GT) in understanding me, but I meant that I like the Elise, not because I can win with it, but rather because I like its handling, but if the FF cars would handle better, I would use them without a doubt.
But at least you understood me

 

[PARAGON GT]

I see, ok, that makes more sence.

There are a handful of FF cars that do handle quite well that I think you should try.

'95 Mitsubishi Eclipse. Less than 10,000 and quite nice for a FF car.
'97 Mitsubishi FTO
The New VW GTI
Any of the MINI's.

To name a few.

 

[Lucas]

Thanks PARAGON GT, I shall give them a try. I will continue with the licenses to increase skill as well, maybe that will help me in handling FFs better?