First experience driving with no ABS

[chuyler1]

I feel like I've discovered a new game...where FF's are actually fun to drive and tuning is just as much about staying in control as it is producing fast lap times.

I actually improved my lap time around Autumn Ring Mini by 1 second in a stock Nissan EXA by turning off ABS and tweaking the brake balance. Now I'm revisiting some of my FF tunes and it is amazing how much it affects them. Below are my observations...

1) ABS appears to work like TCS in the game. TCS buffers accelerator pedal input and ABS (although not visible on the HUD) buffers brake pedal input. If you master no-ABS braking, you can stop just as fast as with it off. That is sort of how ABS works in real life, by distributing brake pressure to tires that have more grip and releasing the pressure when they start to slip. For braking in a straight line, ABS can reduce distances, but by design it will cause understeer when activated.

2) ABS masks the affect of many tuning settings.

a) brake balance - obviously more time will be spent getting this just right...unless you want to lock up the wheels entering every turn.

b) FR drive train, LSD decel settings - I have numerous cars tuned for 450-500pp on SS tires. Most of them have no LSD or very low decel settings. Turn off ABS and that changes drastically. Braking into turn 1 of Daytona Road Course becomes a white knuckle ride if you don't have the LSD set up right. Think of the LSD as a type of ABS that only works on the drive wheels...so when you turn off ABS, you'll need to make use of this feature.

c) FF drive train, rear toe - A good deal of FF tunes on this forum call for -0.25 or more rear toe. Turn off ABS and you'll realize how bad this is. The car will be uncontrollable braking into turns and will usually result in a 4-wheel drift. Move it back to default and the car will understeer. Very small increments (.05) will be much more effective with getting a FF to properly turn in.

d) dampers and rollbars - before removing ABS changing these seemed to be a guessing game. I would go soft if I needed to drive over curbs or hard if I wanted to minimize body roll. With ABS off, tires that have less weight will lock up. Small adjustments show very quickly how to manage weight across the car and keep all 4 tires braking evenly.

I have only spent a few days with it off...but i am having so much more fun. I feel more connected to the cars. My lap times are a little slower and not quite as consistent...but as I get better with the tuning and learn to feel the braking better, I think I'll see some increased lap times...especially in FF cars that never wants to turn in.

 

[praiano63]

I feel like I've discovered a new game...where FF's are actually fun to drive and tuning is just as much about staying in control as it is producing fast lap times.

I actually improved my lap time around Autumn Ring Mini by 1 second in a stock Nissan EXA by turning off ABS and tweaking the brake balance. Now I'm revisiting some of my FF tunes and it is amazing how much it affects them. Below are my observations...

1) ABS appears to work like TCS in the game. TCS buffers accelerator pedal input and ABS (although not visible on the HUD) buffers brake pedal input. If you master no-ABS braking, you can stop just as fast as with it off. That is sort of how ABS works in real life, by distributing brake pressure to tires that have more grip and releasing the pressure when they start to slip. For braking in a straight line, ABS can reduce distances, but by design it will cause understeer when activated.

2) ABS masks the affect of many tuning settings.

a) brake balance - obviously more time will be spent getting this just right...unless you want to lock up the wheels entering every turn.

b) FR drive train, LSD decel settings - I have numerous cars tuned for 450-500pp on SS tires. Most of them have no LSD or very low decel settings. Turn off ABS and that changes drastically. Braking into turn 1 of Daytona Road Course becomes a white knuckle ride if you don't have the LSD set up right. Think of the LSD as a type of ABS that only works on the drive wheels...so when you turn off ABS, you'll need to make use of this feature.

c) FF drive train, rear toe - A good deal of FF tunes on this forum call for -0.25 or more rear toe. Turn off ABS and you'll realize how bad this is. The car will be uncontrollable braking into turns and will usually result in a 4-wheel drift. Move it back to default and the car will understeer. Very small increments (.05) will be much more effective with getting a FF to properly turn in.

d) dampers and rollbars - before removing ABS changing these seemed to be a guessing game. I would go soft if I needed to drive over curbs or hard if I wanted to minimize body roll. With ABS off, tires that have less weight will lock up. Small adjustments show very quickly how to manage weight across the car and keep all 4 tires braking evenly.

I have only spent a few days with it off...but i am having so much more fun. I feel more connected to the cars. My lap times are a little slower and not quite as consistent...but as I get better with the tuning and learn to feel the braking better, I think I'll see some increased lap times...especially in FF cars that never wants to turn in.

I race sometime with a friend that have a room only for NSX stock no ABS. It's very fun and technical to drive. Slower than ABS on but i think it's just a problem of input. Even with a G27 pedal (very sensitive) and the brake balance set to 0/0 or 1/0 or 2/0, it's very difficult to not lock the wheels. I can't imagine this with a DS3..???
Perhaps PD can modulate this sensibilty in a next update. The problem is that you don't have G force to feed your braking input, only the noise of the tires. To compare, it's easiest to control the wheel spin of a powerful car with throttle that need 10 seconds to reach 200 kmh but only need less than the half to come back to 0 kmh braking.
An extreme case like a Formula one have 1.5G acceleration and 5.5 G deceleration in the most heavy braking situation .

 

[chuyler1]

Yeah, I think PD could definitely do something to make the two modes closer. It's kind of dumb that you have to result to low brake balance settings to avoid lockup. I may not exclusively use no ABS, but I will definitely start using it to tune. I'm excited by the fact that the rear tires of my FF cars don't stay blue the entire race. I think ABS was completely shunting those tires when weight transferred forward

An online endurance race combining the new tire wear settings along with ABS off could be very interesting. Drivers prone to lockups might run faster laps at the beginning, but slow and steady could win the race.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Every couple of months I turn ABS off and try it out again, thinking I've gained enough knowledge of the tracks and braking that I've got it all figured out, only to find out I don't...lol. On cars with big fat soft tires and on flat tracks, it's manageable. But take the same manageable car to Deep Forest or Trial Mountain and you are barely in control and seconds off the pace. PD has failed dramatically in the no ABS braking department, as most of the settings higher than about 2/0 or 3/1 are pretty much unusable.

And even when you think you've got it figured out, take the car into an online race and that perfectly accurate braking you can do when running alone and able to hear only your car is gone, you step on it just a bit too hard under pressure and you're toast.

Now racing where no one can use ABS, that's a different story, but still, PD has to do something with the brake settings for non-ABS drivers to allow a wider range of settings and actually be able to tune brakes without ABS, instead of just plugging in very low values on most cars.

 

[SolidSnake7735]

You guys are discovering the wonders of ZERO ABS!! I'm actually currently working on a set of cars for my tuning page based on classic cars meant to run withOUT ABS.

Also since i run touge a lot, most of my cars run zero ABS for precision turning and mid-turn adjustments since you're usually running with the opponents no more than 203 car-lengths ahead/behind you. It's so much fun!!

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Started playing around with zero abs in the past few weeks, first with my X1s and then the F2007 and have been running my best laps that way. I think it will be more difficult, but the next step for me will be 550pp street tire cars. It's amazing how much more feedback and control I get over the car. I attribute the quicker lap times to less overall braking to get around the track.

 

[Poontanir]

I have always felt I can stop faster in real life without ABS (at least in dry conditions), but in the game the lack of g-force and chassis vibrations make it very hard to feel the grip. I have found it very helpful to run without ABS for tuning. One thought I have had is to replace the spring for the brake peddle with an air ram or something that will more accurately replicate brake stiffness. Maybe a feedback linear electromagnetic motor for ABS kick back on the peddle. At any rate driving without ABS is an equipment problem for the most part not a programing problem. Most cars lockup or have ABS kickback at about 45% brake travel. At this point the peddle is far stiffer then any sim peddle I have felt. Only once have I been able to use full brake travel on a car; I had extra wide and sticky tires on a warm day and on high grip tarmac. If driving at the limits without driver aids were easy driver aids wouldn't exist in the first place.

 

[SolidSnake7735]

Started playing around with zero abs in the past few weeks, first with my X1s and then the F2007 and have been running my best laps that way. I think it will be more difficult, but the next step for me will be 550pp street tire cars. It's amazing how much more feedback and control I get over the car. I attribute the quicker lap times to less overall braking to get around the track.

You should try the FD3S and NSR-R setups i have on my page. Both are tuned to 550PP on street tires. Hella fun to drive, especially on the Nurburgring

 

[frankygt-r]

i have raced some days ago in a room where abs was turned off, the first race was on laguna seca, 470pp ss, driving my new golf 10. i have spent the entire race tryin to figure out a way to brake without have that massive oversteer. after spending some times tweaking brakes balance i have found another game like chuyler said. for sure its damn tough with my ds3 but its a lot fun too, it was like the first time i tried comfort soft, you think its impossible to handle, but its only a matter of time to get used to the lower grip (but higher feedback as well) from the tires. its a pity that 99.9 % of gt players dont like to challenge themself with extreme setting. i cannot understand why a lot of people use racing soft tires on every car

 

[chuyler1]

I came across a 1-make no abs room this afternoon with some very good drivers.

It was fun to dare each other to brake later and later into turns...but I could not run with 5/5 balance on a stock car. I don't know who at PD tested cars with abs off but it is pretty much mandatory that you drop the balance down to 2/2 or lower if you want to utilize more than 15% of your brake pedal travel.

 

[SolidSnake7735]

I came across a 1-make no abs room this afternoon with some very good drivers.

It was fun to dare each other to brake later and later into turns...but I could not run with 5/5 balance on a stock car. I don't know who at PD tested cars with abs off but it is pretty much mandatory that you drop the balance down to 2/2 or lower if you want to utilize more than 15% of your brake pedal travel.

I use the usual 5/5 and depending on the car i might set it front or rear biased but i never have trouble with the brakes locking and i use DS3... that being said, i have my gas and brake buttons mapped to the triggers which help soo much more than the stick or face buttons for pressure sensitive tasks

 

[chuyler1]

What tires do you race on? My experience is completely with comfort and sport tires.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I have been using RS on the F2007 and rarely lose control even on Spa. Best time without abs is 1:40.8 and I know it can be done well into the 30's. Tried the 86 Gt12 at about 500 pp with brake balance of 4/3 on sport hard tires. Did well on short tracks but having issues slowing down for corners after long straights such as the first corner on Tokyo.

It can be done.

edit: I'm a bit motivated to work on zero abs after having my butt kicked on Nurb gpf. We were all using the 86 GT 12 on CH, no aids, no abs. Insane.

 

[chuyler1]

Yeah it's the high speed braking that is rough. Watching BTC on Speed channel now and they lock up the rear tires in the hard braking zones...pretty cool series.

I think I may start a no abs series. It really adds to the realism when you have to pick and choose the times you attempt to out brake your opponent. With aggressive tire wear, you've only got a few shots at out braking.

 

[JackWilson]

How does having my brake balance at 0 Front 10 Rear cause the front brakes to lock up first. I'm guessing its either something to do with the suspension or just a problem with the ABS/Brake Balance tuning.

The car is the Subaru Impreza WRC 08, try it for your self.

 

[shirakawaa]

I haven't tried yet with that car, but if you press the brake button/pedal all the way down at once you'll lock both axles, and since the car is front-heavy and decelerating, the fact that the front axle is receiving more load will cause front tires to heat up first and quicker in the tire temperature chart.

That chart doesn't really exactly show if tires are locking.
You can have locked tires without them overheating, depending on their load.

Try checking during a replay.

 

[JackWilson]

When I press the pedal all the way down at once the front brakes lock first then unlock then the rear brakes lock. I've only seen it with this car so far.

On some other cars, EG Civic for example, I have the brake balance at 1Front 3Rear, and the rear always locks first.

I stopped tuning the impreza now because I couldnt get it to oversteer when braking hard into the corner.

LSD was set with braking sensitivity at very low values too.

I'm not 100% sure the fronts were locking first but the tempersture chart showed the front go red and smoke came from the front first.

I will have to double check again.

 

[shirakawaa]

That's not what I'm experiencing with that car.
Try testing on the Top Gear test track. When you start, turn back and accelerate until the second "X" painted on ground, then brake. Quit, watch replay.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

How does having my brake balance at 0 Front 10 Rear cause the front brakes to lock up first. I'm guessing its either something to do with the suspension or just a problem with the ABS/Brake Balance tuning.

The car is the Subaru Impreza WRC 08, try it for your self.

Is your torque bias set at 50/50 by any chance?

 

[JackWilson]

Both wheels are locking at the same time.
Brake Balance=Front-0 Rear-10

Is your torque bias set at 50/50 by any chance?

Nah 25/75

 

[shirakawaa]

Both wheels are locking at the same time.

Check better, because they don't. Try also braking at 90-95% of the total brake control range instead of 100%.
The car behavior under braking should make it clear enough that the rear wheels are locking anyway with a 0-10 setting.

 

[Lambob]

The day the GTR-35 TC cameout, I felt courageous, and practised and tuned the car to my delight, always with ABS and all to 0. I can lap the nur with it in 5:52s, ABS off, brake BIAS was around ~3/3, it was fun. I should really get rid of ABS altogether on other cars, it's a bad habit I suppose. Some cars like the Ferrari 512BB '76, is suddenly scary without ABS, aggressively on the Nur, perhaps it needs retuning for no ABS.

 

[Z1-AV69]

So far I only tried running the F10 without ABS, but I liked that a lot.

I wonder for some time what brake balance with ABS on really does to a cars behavior. I have the strong suspicion it is a kind of master tune not only affecting braking, but acceleration too. If you remember the Vettel-Challenge, the only setting of the car you can alter is the brake balance (through the in-race settings menu). As a DS3 user this helped me tremendously driving this thing not only under brakes but also in altering on throttle behavior (this was more important to me for the challenge). It seems to me a higher rear brake balance will make the car more willing to turn under any condition and vice versa.

Using ABS off to tune the car could be a very good idea, but I'm not sure this would really work if ABS on changes more than only braking. So what are your thoughts and experiences? Does it work?

 

[Lambob]

^ remember the Eiger , Alfa 8C special event challenge? Take off ABS, and notice how much faster the car can go up a hill. ~2-3% you can feel it, for every ounce of time is crucial for that gold. But insurance agents are running scared as you crash into every hairpin without ABS.

 

[chuyler1]

It's not that ABS is a master tune, it's that it has such a big affect on tire temps. When you get the right amount of heat into a tire (not too much, not too little) it will grip better.

With ABS on, brake pressure is eventually routed to the tire with the most grip (outside front) as other tires begin to slip and it will saturate that tire with heat. It regulates body roll and will prevent oversteer under braking. It also negates the need for LSD decel settings to some extent. It effectively masks many of the tuning options. You may end up with very different settings to get proper turn in with ABS on, when all you had to do was turn ABS off to get some rotation out of the car.

A prime example of this is rear toe. When you turn off ABS, aggressive rear toe in a FF car is unnecessary, in fact it is downright dangerous. Taking a chicane like the one at Madrid before the front straight will cause whiplash on the car.

 

[chuyler1]

^ remember the Eiger , Alfa 8C special event challenge? Take off ABS, and notice how much faster the car can go up a hill. ~2-3% you can feel it, for every ounce of time is crucial for that gold. But insurance agents are running scared as you crash into every hairpin without ABS.

In real life cars, traction control and ABS often work together. The brakes are used to distribute power evenly. Although they are separate settings in the game, it wouldn't surprise me if ABS still helped to prevent wheelspin and therefore slowed you down.

...but more plausible would be that with ABS off the heat was better distributed between the tires while braking giving you better tire temps for the corner and more grip/less slip as you exited the turn.

 

[Lambob]

Thanks for the insight, Chyler

 

[SolidSnake7735]

The day the GTR-35 TC cameout, I felt courageous, and practised and tuned the car to my delight, always with ABS and all to 0. I can lap the nur with it in 5:52s, ABS off, brake BIAS was around ~3/3, it was fun. I should really get rid of ABS altogether on other cars, it's a bad habit I suppose. Some cars like the Ferrari 512BB '76, is suddenly scary without ABS, aggressively on the Nur, perhaps it needs retuning for no ABS.

I'm actually working on releasing a set of tunes for classic cars tuned running ZERO ABS.

The cars include some american muscle as well as some european classics. Particularly the 512BB. I was running the car at 520PP with Sports Soft tires without ABS and its one of the most fun cars I've driven. But once i upped the power over 500hp (550PP) it is just a new beast altogether. The power of this car is insanely scary!! But fun at the same time, it's addictive haha.

 

[chuyler1]

I may actually take some time away from nightly racing to retune some cars. 450pp SS tires is my forte. I usually focus on 2nd tier cars, the ones that have potential but need work. In my search for these cars I come across a lot of clunkers that can still be fun to drive. You'll never beat those guys in NSXs, Elises, and S2000s...but anyone you do beat should be ashamed of their tuning and/or driving skills.

 

[chuyler1]

Ok so last night I spent about 30 minutes with the 97 MR-2 GT-S in practice mode. Keep in mind I use a DFGT wheel set with a bungie cord to increase brake pedal tension.

Car setup:
Stock + ECU and mild engine reduction to get it to 450pp.
Comfort Soft Tires

I messed with ABS=1 and ABS=0 and various BB settings from 5/5 to 1/0. After a while I added the fixed sport suspension which helped a little. Here are my conclusions from this session:

1) PD has never actually driven a car without ABS and they likely spent very little time testing street cars with ABS on the off setting. Here's a clue, if the car is basically stock...it should understeer under mild braking and then oversteer once lockup occurs. In this game, if you don't adjust the BB the rear tires will instantly lock up on CS tires unless you are going perfectly straight. I guess PD thought this car was a drift machine from the factory.

2) Even with ABS=1 and BB at 5/5 this car is a beast to handle. It really shouldn't snap into oversteer at the touch of the brakes, but it does. I know MR cars are prone to oversteer, but people drive them on the road every day, and if you tap the brakes at 70 mph they don't spin out of control.

3) With ABS on, 5/3 or 5/2 seems to give the car a more street-like handling. While on the brakes the car will understeer with light steering input and then oversteer if you turn too much. Brake too hard and the fronts will overheat and the rears will never lock up.

4) With ABS off, 3/1 to as low as 2/0 or even 1/0 is necessary if you want to live to see lap 2.

5) This car has so much front grip you really can't rely on tire squeal to know when you're at the right speed for a corner. The front tires won't lose grip until they are behind the rears. Adding the sport suspension seemed to help, especially with the follow through at TGTT.


I think I'm going to drop this car for now and grab a premium car to mess with. Perhaps the physics are closer to reality for the premiums (doubtful, but worth a shot). Otherwise I may just skip CS tires and go right to SH or SS tires. My primary reason for using CS was to get a feel for how the car handled in stock trim so I could mimic the same body roll with the stickier tires.