First experience driving with no ABS

[praiano63]

From the premium cars i love to race the NSX R 2002 sport soft tires, ABS off , brakes set to 2/0. I have G27 and it is a very good feeling under brake with this pedal. (very light medium brake pressure and high volume on the TV to listen to the tires....)👍 Its another game like this, but need a room only with this rule for everybody to race. Its still slower than ABS 1.

 

[shirakawaa]

You guys use very low brake strenght settings.
With my DFGT I generally use a front brake strenght of 7-9, and 1-3 for the rear, depending on the car and tires.

 

[JackWilson]

With my Spirit R I have to use 1-0 to stop brakes from locking.

I think with ABS off, you want to tune the brake balance so you can jump on the brake pedal, all the way down without the brakes locking.

 

[praiano63]

You guys use very low brake strenght settings.
With my DFGT I generally use a front brake strenght of 7-9, and 1-3 for the rear, depending on the car and tires.

More rear brake with ABS off just make me spin. I use this setting for ABS 1 on some cars. But low brake value are necessary in my opinion , to drive ABS off. It give you more space to apply the right input pressure.
But im not a PRO of ABS set to 0, still a lot to learn. 👍

 

[shirakawaa]

More rear brake with ABS off just make me spin.

If you increase the front bias proportionally you won't, though, because front tires will tend to lock first, causing understeer.

I use this setting for ABS 1 on some cars. But low brake value are necessary in my opinion , to drive ABS off. It give you more space to apply the right input pressure.
But im not a PRO of ABS set to 0, still a lot to learn. 👍

I set up my brake bias so that just after the second spring on my brake pedal (DFGT) engages, front tires start to lock. This also gives me "headroom" for aerodynamics, hills, etc. By setting up brake bias so that you aren't able to lock up tires at all, you can't be sure that you're applying the maximum braking force possible.

 

[praiano63]

If you increase the front bias proportionally you won't, though, because front tires will tend to lock first, causing understeer.

If your settings are higher on the tires with less weight transfer ABS OFF, you will block this wheels, under braking, the rear tires. This is logical and this is what i have experienced during some sessions driving like this.
So depending of the car i use FR 60% REAR 40% or 70% - 30% using the numbers like a fraction, and low value to have more room.

 

[chuyler1]

SHIRAKAWA, I use a DFGT as well but I have a bungie cord to provide more even tension the distance of the travel. I don't feel the 2nd spring as promenently and in general I am used to braking with the full travel of the pedal.

I like your approach of using that second spring as your threshold. It basically means you modulate braking using 50% of the brakes but have that extra 50% on hand if necessary. That falls in line with you using 7/1 to 9/3. However, I wonder how often you actually use the remaining 50% of travel?

With my approach, I am using 100% of travel for high speed braking and probably 50-80% of the travel for everything else. With factory spec cars on SS tires, I usually start with 3/3 and drop down as far as 3/1 if I'm having trouble keeping the car from locking up the rears.

Here's some video of me the other night in a spec (selected from the recommended garage) lobby with no aids on. I had to tweak the BB on the starting grid before each race. I placed pretty well every race...but some laggy drivers made getting around half the pack pretty easy...but keep in mind, the host only gave us less than a lap to get familiar with the cars before he started the race.

 

[esoxhntr]

Ok so last night I spent about 30 minutes with the 97 MR-2 GT-S in practice mode. Keep in mind I use a DFGT wheel set with a bungie cord to increase brake pedal tension.

Car setup:
Stock + ECU and mild engine reduction to get it to 450pp.
Comfort Soft Tires

I messed with ABS=1 and ABS=0 and various BB settings from 5/5 to 1/0. After a while I added the fixed sport suspension which helped a little. Here are my conclusions from this session:

1) PD has never actually driven a car without ABS and they likely spent very little time testing street cars with ABS on the off setting. Here's a clue, if the car is basically stock...it should understeer under mild braking and then oversteer once lockup occurs. In this game, if you don't adjust the BB the rear tires will instantly lock up on CS tires unless you are going perfectly straight. I guess PD thought this car was a drift machine from the factory.

2) Even with ABS=1 and BB at 5/5 this car is a beast to handle. It really shouldn't snap into oversteer at the touch of the brakes, but it does. I know MR cars are prone to oversteer, but people drive them on the road every day, and if you tap the brakes at 70 mph they don't spin out of control.

3) With ABS on, 5/3 or 5/2 seems to give the car a more street-like handling. While on the brakes the car will understeer with light steering input and then oversteer if you turn too much. Brake too hard and the fronts will overheat and the rears will never lock up.

4) With ABS off, 3/1 to as low as 2/0 or even 1/0 is necessary if you want to live to see lap 2.

5) This car has so much front grip you really can't rely on tire squeal to know when you're at the right speed for a corner. The front tires won't lose grip until they are behind the rears. Adding the sport suspension seemed to help, especially with the follow through at TGTT.


I think I'm going to drop this car for now and grab a premium car to mess with. Perhaps the physics are closer to reality for the premiums (doubtful, but worth a shot). Otherwise I may just skip CS tires and go right to SH or SS tires. My primary reason for using CS was to get a feel for how the car handled in stock trim so I could mimic the same body roll with the stickier tires.

the sw20 mr-2 was infamous for snap oversteer and lift off oversteer there are many in the wreckers to prove this point. this is/was not a car to trail brake in unless you knew what you were doing. your results are not surprising.

 

[chuyler1]

Yes it was...but only the first couple of years. From wikipedia...

Changes to the suspension geometry, tire sizes and power steering in 1992/93 were made in response to journalist reports that the MR2 was prone to "snap-oversteer". As a counterpoint to the snap-oversteer phenomenon of the MR2, other journalists point out that most mid-engine and rear engine sports and super cars exhibit similar behaviour, and that a change to the driver's response to oversteer is really the cause. In any car, braking shifts the weight forward, and acceleration to the rear. When drivers enter a corner with too much speed, and lift the throttle mid-corner, the weight transfers forward causing the rear tires to lose traction (called lift-off oversteer), which can result in a spin. When improper steering inputs were made attempting to correct this non-power-on oversteer, the rear of the MR2 would swing one way, then wildly (and quickly) the other—thus the term "snap" oversteer. Toyota elected to change the MR2 suspension and tires to reduce the likelihood that this would occur, though many drivers would lament the change and claim that it "neutered" the sharp edge the MR2 was known for.[18] Toyota claimed that the changes were made "for drivers whose reflexes were not those of Formula One drivers."

I can handle a little oversteer...but the car is just out of control and will burn up a set of tires enough in the first lap to make subsequent laps even worse. Being a 97, it should have this resolved in the game. Anyway, point noted, and I do plan to try something different.

 

[esoxhntr]

you could probably turn up the decel lsd some more to further neuter the car.

turning off the abs in this case further widens the gap between driving style and the limits of the car. abs on masks it to some degree.

the mr2 is one of my favourite/quickest cars in the 450-500pp range but i dare not drive it the same way as i do others. it is more difficult to drive at the limit.

 

[shirakawaa]

I like your approach of using that second spring as your threshold. It basically means you modulate braking using 50% of the brakes but have that extra 50% on hand if necessary. That falls in line with you using 7/1 to 9/3. However, I wonder how often you actually use the remaining 50% of travel?

Actually I set up brake strength so that on a straight line and a flat road, front tires start to hard lock at around 75% of the total brake travel, so the remaining headroom is more like 25-30% than 50%. When the second spring engages (at around 50% brake travel, I guess) is where I have to start paying attention to how I modulate brake pressure.