Force feedback, are they having a larf?

[osrg]

Unless you see the actual data any assumptions you make are like fortune-telling or modern journalism. I might as well say Top50 consists only of G25s an G27s and I will be as right as you are. Nuff said.

*shrugs shoulders*

Well, from my POV, i'm saying that the wheel doesn't maketh the man.....

I'm quicker with a DFGT, made the Top 20 for the Academy in my country..... i'm not the quickest but i'm no mug either..... so tell me how the G25 is better for me again?

The more i've thought about the post from BWX over the last day or so i just can't see how the supposed simulation of caster returning the wheel to dead centre can be (a) simulated close to real life without actual vehicle weight to do this, and (b) how the G25 is supposedly "light years ahead" of a DFGT in that regard....... making it the be all and end all in wheel simulation.

I'm gonna retract and sit with Devie on this one...... whilst i'm not calling hogwash, his logic is massively flawed.

 

[BWX]

I agree, your post is a lot of hog wash All kidding aside, it just does nothing to contribute to the discussion ...

You all sound very unsure of yourselves-

I mean the people attacking my post so eloquently as "Hogwash" without giving a single solitary example as to WHY.

You "HOGWASHERS" are all ignorant if you think anything I said about the G25 or the guy from Logitech whom I talked to personally before the G25 was released is "hogwash".

BTW osrg, I am not talking about you. Also the example I used with the caster was just an example. The point was that the G25 is faster than those other wheels and it most certainly makes a difference how the FF feels in GT5P and the Time trial.

I also didn't say it is the "be all and end all in wheel simulation"- I know very well that it is not. It's just faster than the DFP and DFGT, and that makes a difference. That notion is not massively flawed.

edit--
oh, and the vehicle weight is simulated right? So yes you are right about that.

 

[arora]

I don't agree with the op on this one, some gt'rs have always been beter playing with the wheel power off, this is nothing new. To me the worse case scenario is that ff is nothing more then vibration on a controller but that won't change the physics of the game.

As for who did what times with what wheel. Silly argument, I know a few alians who can run just as fast with dfgt, g25, whatever. Could probably run just as fast with or without power as well but why bother.

The speed of the g25 ff motor is a little more interesting to me, I wonder how many instances hapen in game where a faster motor would be of any benifit. Any 900 deg wheel is simply an input device and whatever you choose surely you can learn to use it to your best potential. Some may enhance your driving experience more then others while not making your laptimes drop.

I do find it hard to believe that the dfgt would have any disadvantage in gt5p or the demo as it was designed specifically for the game. Most likely the NAT stations will be setup with it, why would PD purposly ruin the experience with a wheel whose main compition is made by the same company?

 

[BWX]

As for who did what times with what wheel. Silly argument, I know a few alians who can run just as fast with dfgt, g25, whatever. Could probably run just as fast with or without power as well but why bother.

The speed of the g25 ff motor is a little more interesting to me, I wonder how many instances hapen in game where a faster motor would be of any benifit. Any 900 deg wheel is simply an input device and whatever you choose surely you can learn to use it to your best potential. Some may enhance your driving experience more then others while not making your laptimes drop.

I do find it hard to believe that the dfgt would have any disadvantage in gt5p or the demo as it was designed specifically for the game. Most likely the NAT stations will be setup with it, why would PD purposly ruin the experience with a wheel whose main compition is made by the same company?

those are good and valid points arora. I think in some situations maybe slower FF could help with lap times - it does come down to personal taste and what someone is used to. About using a slower wheel- the slower wheel is the "official" wheel and less expensive. Here they are using the faster wheel: The G27- Very similar to the G25.

''Gran Turismo 5 ?SLS AMG Driving Experience?
https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5-sls-amg-driving-experience/

I don't think the DFGT or DFP Would ruin the experience at all, it is different though, and when I said the G25 is "better" than the DFP or DFGT I didn't imply those wheels are crap or anything. They are just slower and that makes a difference with the 'feel' of the FF in any race sim - including GT5P and GTtt.

Of course some people want to argue that this all hogwash, LOL. l still don't know why. Just because someone is new to this forum maybe some people think they must be noobs completely?

 

[arora]

Of course some people want to argue that this is all hogwash, LOL. l still don't know why. Just because someone is new to this forum maybe some people think they must be noobs completely?

Don't worry about that, and welcome to the planet 👍

 

[BWX]

Don't worry about that, and welcome to the planet 👍

Hey thanks, I really do appreciate that.👍

 

[GTP_DEVIE]

I have owned both a DFGT and now own a G25 and what i can definetly say is that i had no advantage with either wheel. The difference in feel was noticeable with no difference to my lap times. DHolland uses a DFGT and has no problems being extremely fast. This is just an opinion,but i felt the DFGT steering felt "nicer" but the pedals definetly feel better than the DFGT but offers no advantage in outright speed for me.
As for the hogwash part, you better start getting used to mild criticism on this forum,and my comment was in no way supposed to offend you "BWX",but i still think your post is hogwash.

 

[BWX]

LOL, oh, ok. -_-

 

[Hypo_Pylon]

With regards to the wheel vs. wheel debate. I went from a DFPRO to a G27 and immediately went faster with the G27. After about 5 laps I beat my record that I had been struggling to best for a couple of days with the DFPRO, and on the next two laps I had gone even faster shaving off 3 tenth's.
I thought I would be slower at first and take many more laps than it did to get used to it, but this was not the case, the G27 was so much more precise in steering input, brakes and throttle. The helical gears make a big difference, so much smoother which make it easier to be more precise.

 

[ANFD]

You all sound very unsure of yourselves-

I mean the people attacking my post so eloquently as "Hogwash" without giving a single solitary example as to WHY.

You "HOGWASHERS" are all ignorant if you think anything I said about the G25 or the guy from Logitech whom I talked to personally before the G25 was released is "hogwash".

BTW osrg, I am not talking about you. Also the example I used with the caster was just an example. The point was that the G25 is faster than those other wheels and it most certainly makes a difference how the FF feels in GT5P and the Time trial.

I also didn't say it is the "be all and end all in wheel simulation"- I know very well that it is not. It's just faster than the DFP and DFGT, and that makes a difference. That notion is not massively flawed.

edit--
oh, and the vehicle weight is simulated right? So yes you are right about that.

I think you may have mis-understood the point of my post. It was directed towards (and quoted) Devies comment about your post being hog wash. It was his comment that I thought to be hog wash since it did nothing to further the discussion in a logical manner. Again, see the quote and my comment on it ... NOT your post

 

[eSZee]

(a) simulated close to real life without actual vehicle weight to do this

Cars have weight in the game. It isn't that hard to program the wheel to know which car returns to center at what speed.

 

[BWX]

I think you may have mis-understood the point of my post. It was directed towards (and quoted) Devies comment about your post being hog wash. It was his comment that I thought to be hog wash since it did nothing to further the discussion in a logical manner. Again, see the quote and my comment on it ... NOT your post

OIC, I didn't get the gist. It makes sense now.

 

[Mad Matt]

I think we're getting slightly lost here (or perhaps it's just me). The OP claims that the lack of power to his wheel effected the game physics, not how he feels it but actually how it works so he had more grip.

I don't know if he's right but it would be interesting to experiment a bit. How would the program know there was no power? I think the only thing that's get passed back is the position of the wheel and the pedals..... hmmmm.

It sounds more likely then that the lack of power enables the wheel t be centred faster (or pointed in the right direction faster) so with the wheels pointing the right way more quickly you may be able to get better traction.

So, if the G25/G27 really does allow quicker movement of the wheel it could give an advantage. I know my DFGT is slower than any of my current cars (OK I didn't measure it but it's enough of a difference to be noticeable when making violent manoeuvres). Perhaps someone with both could measure the effect, then we'd be a step forward?

Personally the lack of FFB drives me up the wall, or it certainly did with my old Mad Catz wheel......

 

[z00h]

Perhaps someone with both could measure the effect, then we'd be a step forward?

If the times achieved during the GT academy finals are anything to go by then there is a proof that DFGT is slower. Take a look at the splits below, they were set on DFGT by (presumably) the fastest men on earth. They are far off from what the fastest times in TT were so unless someone comes up with a tangible proof that there is no difference between DFGT and G25/G27 I say it is all bollox.

 

[Leadfoot53]

If the times achieved during the GT academy finals are anything to go by then there is a proof that DFGT is slower. Take a look at the splits below, they were set on DFGT by (presumably) the fastest men on earth. They are far off from what the fastest times in TT were so unless someone comes up with a tangible proof that there is no difference between DFGT and G25/G27 I say it is all bollox.

They are IN A RACE! For time trials all you are up against is yourself, but in the race, you are against (for this) 3 other people. Of course you'd be slower!

 

[z00h]

They are IN A RACE! For time trials all you are up against is yourself, but in the race, you are against (for this) 3 other people. Of course you'd be slower!

No 1 is first in both laps, so he should be running a close to time trial pace. Or maybe what you mean is that they're running heavy on fuel? LOL

 

[The Outlaw]

If the times achieved during the GT academy finals are anything to go by then there is a proof that DFGT is slower.

Complete fail.

Those times are nothing to go by for a number of reason, which you likely wouldn't understand unless you were put in that situation.

DHolland won the Australian GTAcademy final and did a 3'23.0xx overall combined time using a DFGT for the Indy qualifier. Might I add that I doubt he put anywhere near 100% effort in for the qualifier either.

 

[z00h]

Complete fail.

Almost three seconds off ur best is a what I'd call a fail matey. And what exactly was different, crowd pressure? Or maybe a fully working force feedback? Please, do enlighten me.

 

[The Outlaw]

Almost three seconds off ur best is a what I'd call a fail matey. And what exactly was different, crowd pressure? Or maybe a fully working force feedback? Please, do enlighten me.

The point is, those laps times are absolutely no reference as to what one is capable of with a DFGT. You would have realized this had you done a bit more research before being so quick to make such an uninformed statement.

Also, if you look at that screenshot beyond the laps times, you see that there are 2/3 laps remaining, meaning those laps times were set on the first lap where the first sector was far off the pace due to the rolling start or whatever it might be. Then you add the fact that there was most likely a lot of fighting for position on the first lap when the cars were closely grouped, there was a lot of crowd pressure (noise, camera flashes, people breathing down your neck,etc.), pressure put on yourself to perform, no warm up laps, a set-up you might be rather unfamiliar with, etc. It was also mentioned that one of the wheels wasn't working quite properly...can't remember if it was the Australian final or New Zealand.

 

[z00h]

The point is, those laps times are absolutely no reference as to what one is capable of with a DFGT. You would have realized this had you done a bit more research before being so quick to make such an uninformed statement.

Also, if you look at that screenshot beyond the laps times, you see that there are 2/3 laps remaining, meaning those laps times were set on the first lap where the first sector was far off the pace due to the rolling start or whatever it might be.

These are "laps remaining" so screens were taken at the penultimate and last lap. If you studied the subject more closely (i.e. taken part in or watched some real races) theres no chance of hitting first sector best from the start and if you was informed more you would of known they were no rolling starts.

The point here matey is if you're fast you're fast, be it on your sofa at your desk or in a room full of people and other players. If your record is low 1:35s and then suddenly your are 3 secs slower (and remembering that majority of players run their TT times with ghost on, so distraction is not an issue) so then either your not that fast or the hardware is not right.

 

[TwinturboCH]

These are "laps remaining" so screens were taken at the penultimate and last lap. If you studied the subject more closely (i.e. taken part in or watched some real races) theres no chance of hitting first sector best from the start and if you was informed more you would of known they were no rolling starts.

The point here matey is if you're fast you're fast, be it on your sofa at your desk or in a room full of people and other players. If your record is low 1:35s and then suddenly your are 3 secs slower (and remembering that majority of players run their TT times with ghost on, so distraction is not an issue) so then either your not that fast or the hardware is not right.

You really are talking rubbish mate.

Watch any REAL racing, not a computer sim, and you will realise that, in a race, drivers are NEVER as quick as their qualifying time as they have other cars to worry about. When you are looking in your mirrors and trying to stop someone overtaking you, you inevitably compromise your line, braking, accelerating etc. Do yourself a favour and learn some facts about racing before trying to tell people they are talking rubbish, sadly it only makes you look a complete prat, especially when you come across with that attitude.

 

[The Outlaw]

These are "laps remaining" so screens were taken at the penultimate and last lap. If you studied the subject more closely (i.e. taken part in or watched some real races) theres no chance of hitting first sector best from the start and if you was informed more you would of known they were no rolling starts..

You are right, there are TWO snapshots from the penultimate and last laps...which I didn't make a note of

Concerning the bold- I was the one who mentioned that in my previous post, so I'm not sure what you are trying to get at by repeating my statement. I just wasn't sure if they were using rolling or standing starts for Indy...but regardless this meant the first lap wasn't going to be as fast as possible, which was my point in saying that.

The point here matey is if you're fast you're fast, be it on your sofa at your desk or in a room full of people and other players. If your record is low 1:35s and then suddenly your are 3 secs slower (and remembering that majority of players run their TT times with ghost on, so distraction is not an issue) so then either your not that fast or the hardware is not right.

It's a frickin 3 lap RACE, not a TT! Don't you get it? You're trying to compare a players best TT lap that took hours on end to achieve in an ideal environment, to race laps in this particular situation which bring about so many unpredictable elements/variables (a few of which I mentioned in my previous post) that impact lap times. The funny part is, you're likely slow yourself (as with most of the people who complain around here) giving you no right or credibility to comment on the speed of others in such a new, intense, pressured filled situation.

You've ignored everything (all the variables) I've told you in my previous post and now you're just trying to prove a point that still gives no validity to your original argument - in which you thought that the GT Academy lap times were proof that one cannot be nearly as fast with a DFGT compared to a G25/G27 user

 

[Synwraith]

I managed to make the top 20 in the UK with 1'35.7 / 1'47.9, and even then it can take me somewhere like an hour to get back up to anywhere near that kind of pace again.

In addition, don't forget that these competitors at the final were doing a few laps in the tuned, then straight into the normal for a few laps, then straight back into the tunes.

In addition to that, these competitors were doing a few laps at Indy, a few laps at Fuji, then a few laps at Daytona, then back to Fuji with a different car.

All of these variables mean that it takes time for people to get used to a new car/track combo, whether it's 10 laps for the superb or 25 laps for the rest like me.

There was simply no way that people were going to be able to reel off 1'35s and 1'47s that had previously taken them nearly 5 weeks to achieve and certainly not on lap 3 of any given TT session.

All the best
Maz

 

[osrg]

Almost three seconds off ur best is a what I'd call a fail matey. And what exactly was different, crowd pressure? Or maybe a fully working force feedback? Please, do enlighten me.

I'm not going to add much here, as Timeattack, TwinTurboCH and Maz have covered it all........and my stomach still hurts from laughing at the stupidity of z00h's un-informed tripe.............

I will ask two questions though.

z00h, what country are you from? and

IF..... you downloaded the TT, where did you place? I just need to know for my peace of mind.

Your observations are soooooo out of whack you're making yourself look quite ridiculous mate..... i'd quit before it gets any worse.

 

[GTP_DEVIE]

I'm not going to add much here, as Timeattack, TwinTurboCH and Maz have covered it all........and my stomach still hurts from laughing at the stupidity of z00h's un-informed tripe.............

I will ask two questions though.

z00h, what country are you from? and

IF..... you downloaded the TT, where did you place? I just need to know for my peace of mind.

Your observations are soooooo out of whack you're making yourself look quite ridiculous mate..... i'd quit before it gets any worse.

Well said guys. to be honest i dont even know why you waste your time replying to this zooh guy,what a joke of a post This is becoming a thread people go to for a larf...

 

[Leadfoot53]

Movie it to the comedy corner! 💡

 

[z00h]

THANK YOU for all the replies :***

So to off start with... I know it might be hard to comprehend, you might even be crying and **** BUT here's the truth, this game is an arcade. It has as much to do with realism as supermarket bread with quality.
Some of yous is saying that this is a race hence the lap times are slower, and that I don't know my ****. So ladies, two facts. Fact number one, hitting qualifying lap times during the race is nothing unusual and if you have a real interest in motorsport you should know that. Fact number two, in real life races cars start heavy on fuel, and by the time they become light the tires are usually gone. This isn't the case in this arcade. There is no fuel factor and there is no tyre wear. So during a 3 lap race, if you start from pole and maintain first place throughout the 3 laps you should be able to do a similarly quick lap as in time trial. And do not tell me about distraction, most of you was doing fast TT laps with ghost cars and with mothers screaming to turn your tellies down.
Then someone was saying that they were changing tracks and whatnot. Correct me if I'm wrong but for the last 6 weeks most of you had been doing hundreds or thousands lap around Indy circuit which means the quickest players should know it like the back of their hand.
So in other words, being 3 secs off your best has nothing to do with it being a race, nor with not knowing the track. It can only be 2 possibilities. Either the hardware issue or lack of skills, i.e. you is a bedroom racer. I do believe it's the latter. Those who were following last years academy certainly remember how amusing it was to watch those fastest players struggle with a real, middle-class sports car.

 

[The Outlaw]

 

[Synwraith]

Then someone was saying that they were changing tracks and whatnot. Correct me if I'm wrong but for the last 6 weeks most of you had been doing hundreds or thousands lap around Indy circuit which means the quickest players should know it like the back of their hand.
So in other words, being 3 secs off your best has nothing to do with it being a race, nor with not knowing the track.

I can only speak for myself, I've done many thousands of laps around Suzuka over the years, tens of thousands surely. I do know it like the back of my hand. However, if I've spent a few days driving a different car at a different track, I certainly cannot get anywhere near my best in 3 laps, I really can't. Takes me an hour or so, and then longer to finetune and achieve my best pace again.

I can't imagine being able to nail my best times in an unfamiliar environment under pressure immediately either alongside the above conditions.

But then, I'm not claiming to be a professional racing driver with the necessary skills to succeed in any type of motorsport. All I can say is that I made one of the most competitive top 20s in the world and I rank as a Division 1 driver at GTP so for what it's worth, I can speak on behalf of the kind of driver who has made the finals. I totally understand the inability to achieve the 1'35s/1'47s under that intense pressure in an unfamiliar environment.

Also for the record I also tried to do as much of my Time Trial laps with the least amount of distraction, i.e. with no music, no one else in my flat. That's probably not the best preparation for the atmosphere in the finals, but I had to get there first!

All the best
Maz

 

[z00h]

Also for the record I also tried to do as much of my Time Trial laps with the least amount of distraction, i.e. with no music, no one else in my flat. That's probably not the best preparation for the atmosphere in the finals, but I had to get there first!

All the best
Maz

Well Maz, all the best for the ExCeL finals. I'm curious what UK lap times will be.