Formula 1 Aramco Magyar Nagydíj 2022

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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Thing is, is that a large part of that successes is not only due to Michael's abilities as a driver, but the fact that he had a large number of personnel from Benneton follow him, including one Ross Brawn and Jean Todt (who I believe is the only non-Italian Team Principal Ferrari has ever had).

You are correct in that Schumacher hand-picking his best of Benetton is what made Ferrari the force they were in the early 2000s but Jean Todt wasn't a Benetton recruit; he joined Ferrari in late 1993 after masterminding Peugeot's 905 sportscar programme.
 
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Crazy race, exciting with great racing at the front and no idea who would win for ages. Ferrari were Ferrari and Mercedes are nearly back - if it weren't for the fact that Verstappen is still on another level. Great drive from Max, that's another race he has managed to Spin and Win!
 
Remember Seb tried to convince Ferrari to get Andy Seidl on board before Zak took the opportunity for McLaren but they refused to do it.
 
Ferrari are great when they're not fast enough to win races. Look at last year, or 2016, or 2015. Ferrari and victory is like two positive ends of a magnet coming together.
 
Imo, there's a certain image that's painted when it comes to the Scuderia, and a large portion of said image was influenced by the Schumacher years in which Ferrari totally dominated. Thing is, is that a large part of that successes is not only due to Michael's abilities as a driver, but the fact that he had a large number of personnel from Benneton follow him, including one Ross Brawn and Jean Todt (who I believe is the only non-Italian Team Principal Ferrari has ever had). Now Ferrari has the unenviable task of trying to match those legendary years with relatively new blood that has almost no connection to the Schumacher personnel, or seemingly taking to heart any of the methods that got them those wonderful years of success.

It's also why I don't believe sacking Binotto would really accomplish much by itself. While he has definitely made some mistakes of his own, Ferrari has been doing the whole musical-chairs act with its top positions for over a decade now, and have pretty much nothing to show for it. The team is still making the same mistakes that cost Seb and Alonso potential championships years ago, with no real indication of any effort being put into reversing these problems. It's especially frustrating when this happens despite Ferrari's engineers building themselves a very fast (albeit stereotypically Italian) race car.

The fact that these same issues have continued and have created the same results for so long tells me that this is, in some capacity, a corporate culture issue, which means that there needs to be a shakedown all the way up the Red Totem Pole if there's any hope of significant change. If that accomplishes nothing, and if I'm Charles (and possibly also Sainz), I'm trying to make a case to Toto Wolf to take me in when Lewis retires, because even though Mercedes are way off the mark in terms of overall pace, they're still doing a solid job of taking advantage of Ferraris mistakes and turning them into Top-5s and podiums.
I think this sums it up perfectly really. It does seem to be a culture problem above all else. It seems Seb’s confidence was really knocked post-Hockenheim crash and so the failure to the win the 2018 championship does have a fair amount to do with him and the car in the last couple of years wasn’t able to compete with the top teams so it’s not all down to strategy. However, they’ve easily got a potentially championship winning car this year and I feel the Leclerc-Sainz lineup is probably the strongest combination on the grid considering they both (IMO anyway) have shown they’re championship material this season so there’s no excuse really. It does appear to be a deep rooted problem.

I agree their image is due to past glories at this point. There’s something inherently romantic about Ferrari and, as I was born in ‘91 and was a kid during the Schumi era, it’s hard for me to not get caught up in that. I’ve been to the museum in Maranello which was a magical experience and they have an incredible heritage. Sadly, I think drivers also get caught up in that. Driving for Ferrari was a dream job for Seb considering Schumi was his hero and so it was understandable he went there but I often think he’d probably have fared better staying at RB or going to Mercedes. I think being a Ferrari driver is definitely something of a poisoned chalice at this point as whilst it’s understandably the ultimate goal for many a racing driver, it seems they’re really not a good choice if you want to be in with a shot of winning the championship. The fact that they’re still unable to deliver results with what’s the fastest car on the grid (in quali anyway, I think the RBs are better tyre deg wise in races) speaks volumes. I agree Mercedes is the best shout for Charles at this point. I feel that Toto’s by far the best manager on the grid and I imagine this current slump will be short lived (indeed, they’re improving as the season goes on). I suppose part of it boils down to the fact I don’t see Ferrari truly having ‘one of the greats’ as it were on their books - Mercedes have Toto who’ll go down as one of the best managers in the sport IMO, RB have Adrian Newey, who’s undoubtedly one of the engineering greats. I don’t really see Ferrari as having someone of the same calibre (they did produce a great car this year though to be fair).

In terms of strategy, I think it’s also that Mercedes have aced strategy for years, RB managed to up their game to be able to compete properly. Ferrari however still appear to be trailing behind and making silly mistakes.
 
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Ferrari has been in f1 since it began in the 1950.

They racked up 16 constructors and 15 drivers. No doubt they are the most sucessful team in history.

So many teams have come gone while Ferrari still stands. It took them 20 years to win the drivers title.

The wait continues.
That's the thing though, one big reason they're the most successful is precisely because they've been in the sport far longer than anyone else. Percentage wise they're way off and have had way too many dry spells. Their budget and resources is also the other key to success. With a cost cap and limited testing in the Schumi era I don't think they'd have been anywhere near to that level.

As for people calling for the man at the top to go yet again, has it not yet dawned on you that the problems with that team run far deeper than a new boss could fix? They need a whole new team of people, not just one.
 
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Meh. Every successful team has their failures, and I feel those failures in Ferrari's case far outweigh the success. They were doing great in the 1970s, terrible in the 1980s and most of the 1990s, and it wasn't until Schumacher basically took all of Benetton's people with him that they became the dominant team people remember. Look what happened to Benetton during that period, and it's fairly evident Brawn, Byrne and all the others that followed Schumacher were the key features to a successful race team. What happened once everyone either retired or left for greener pastures? Yep, failure.

They've nailed the new regulations, built a very fast car albeit not necessarily a reliable one, but it's sheer incompetence that's their undoing this year.


They're the Toronto Maple Leafs of the F1 world.

They are the Montreal Canadiens of the F1 world. The Leafs haven't won in 55 years. (I'm a Leafs fan.)
 
You are correct in that Schumacher hand-picking his best of Benetton is what made Ferrari the force they were in the early 2000s but Jean Todt wasn't a Benetton recruit; he joined Ferrari in late 1993 after masterminding Peugeot's 905 sportscar programme.
Correction noted. 👍
 
MSZ
They are the Montreal Canadiens of the F1 world. The Leafs haven't won in 55 years. (I'm a Leafs fan.)

Nah, it's nothing to do with how long it's been. Well yes, technically. Both teams suck in similar ways, that's where I was getting to.

Toronto hasn't won a playoff series since 2004. Ferrari hasn't won a title since 2008.

Toronto's blown what, 5 straight series they were comfortably leading. Ferrari's blown 2008, 2012, 2018 and probably will blow 2022. And that's not even mentionning the early season success that ultimately falls flat on its face. Like loosing to the Habs last year, or Seb binning it in Hockenheim in 2018.

Toronto lost a game they should have won to a zamboni driver who works for their organization, effectively sabotaging them. (Europeans look up David Ayres, it's hilarious) Ferrari lost races they should have won because of their strategy team, who works for them, effectively sabotaged them.

Harrold Ballard and Enzo Ferrari were running things mostly the same way, child abuse and tax evasion scandals aside. Both teams are jokes.
 
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Europeans look up David Ayres
He worked for the Maple Leafs but played against them as an emergency goalie for Carolina Hurricanes and won the game? At the age of 42? Having never played NHL level before?

That is absolutely... brilliant.
 
He worked for the Maple Leafs but played against them as an emergency goalie for Carolina Hurricanes and won the game? At the age of 42? Having never played NHL level before?

That is absolutely... brilliant.
The emergency goalie rule in the NHL is such that every amphitheater has to provide an emergency backup goaltender (known as EBUG) that is available to both teams should their main goalie and/or backup goalie not be able to play the game. Ayres was the EBUG for the Air Canada Centre in Toronto.

But it's actually even better than that. He hadn't played an actual amateur level game in 5 years, and would only tend the goal during team practices sporadically. Toronto spent half their salary budget on 4 elite players (there are 22 players in a hockey team, if you're not familiar) with long-term contracts, that did absolutely nothing that game. It's like having Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar on the same team and losing to whichever football team is the worst (not really familiar with the teams themselves) after they've replaced their goaltender with a janitor that used to play back in college 20 years ago. Or signing Alonso, Vettel and Leclerc and not giving them the equipment their talent deserves every year.

It was an abysmal collapse, not unlike pitting Leclerc 4 times today and giving away what would probably have been an easy win.
 
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Toronto's blown what, 5 straight series they were comfortably leading. Ferrari's blown 2008, 2012, 2018 and probably will blow 2022. And that's not even mentionning the early season success that ultimately falls flat on its face. Like loosing to the Habs last year, or Seb binning it in Hockenheim in 2018.
2012 was the year of the Grosjean torpedo at Spa, but they also could've had 2010.
 
The entire Ferrari pit wall needs to be sacked, effective immediately. It's the only way things are going to change.
 
Ferrari are great when they're not fast enough to win races. Look at last year, or 2016, or 2015. Ferrari and victory is like two positive ends of a magnet coming together.
Ferrari was not great in 2016 at all. Arguably that was the beginning of the current flop era. They had the opportunity to win multiple races, they ended up with a grand total of no wins at all. Ferrari was clearly much better than Red Bull at the beginning of the season, yet Verstappen ended up close to beating Vettel to fourth in the final standings despite not even starting the season for Red Bull.
 
That's the thing though, one big reason they're the most successful is precisely because they've been in the sport far longer than anyone else. Percentage wise they're way off and have had way too many dry spells. Their budget and resources is also the other key to success. With a cost cap and limited testing in the Schumi era I don't think they'd have been anywhere near to that level.

As for people calling for the man at the top to go yet again, has it not yet dawned on you that the problems with that team run far deeper than a new boss could fix? They need a whole new team of people, not just one.
Teams all come and go. Mclaren and Williams use to be top dogs now look at them.

Ferrari has fallen percentage wise because it stayed in F1 since 1950 of course it would fall.

Ferrari hadnt left F1 because its central to its core brand. F1 is Ferrari and Ferrari is F1.

Before the Schumacher era Ferrari did not even have the most championship titles.
 
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Clearly being put up to the pit wall by Ocon and given the worst tyres possible in his race strategy was enough for Fernando 😆

 
Wow. That empty Alpine seat looking very nice though for a few drivers.

Can we tempt Seb out of retirement?
 
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Clearly being put up to the pit wall by Ocon and given the worst tyres possible in his race strategy was enough for Fernando 😆


Surprsing.I expected them to go with experience but not Alonso.

I guess this means Alpine will be competitive next year, in true Alonso bad moves tradition.
 

Bitch Please Seriously GIF by reactionseditor
 
He's obviously been hitting the paint thinners.

Even IF that were true, and the numbers/lap time really don't support it, the tyre choice was absolutely the reason they finished 4th and 6th. They clearly had the raw pace to finish 2nd and 3rd at worst.

Their problem seems to be that they stick to their pre-race sims no matter what.
“When we fitted the hard, our simulation was that it could have been a difficult couple of laps of warm-up, slower than the medium for 10-11 laps, and then it would have come back and been faster by the end of the stint – and it was a 30-lap stint.


“Based on our data and our analysis, we knew the hard was not as fast as the medium, but it could have been as fast 11 laps into the stint… Yes, it didn’t work and we would not have fitted them had we known they would be as bad.”
Meanwhile Red Bull looked out of the window a few hours before the race, knew the cool and damp conditions would mean the hards would not work and changed to start on the softs at the last minute.

That's the difference between the genius they have at Red Bull, Hannah Schmitz, and the dunce at Ferrari, Ignacio Rueda. He's been their chief strategist since 2015, during which they've rarely made good calls and too many mistakes to count.
 
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