Formula 1 Lenovo Japanese Grand Prix 2025Formula 1

[Liquid]

The only moment of any significance took place in the pitlane, not even on the track.

 

[hakhan]

I am glad that Max won the race but overall it was a boring race.

 

[Aphelion]

People trying to argue that Mclaren should have swapped drivers… imagine Piastri winning and Norris coming 3rd because of a team order for one second. Then imagine Piastri winning the championship by a handful of points.

As if Mclaren would ever have done that the controversy would be off the charts. To me, it’s fairly obvious that if those two are going to overtake each-other it’s going to have to be a fight. They're in a battle for the championship for goodness sakes.

 

[NickGuy]

terribly boring race but that pole lap by max was beautiful

 

[MagpieRacer]

People trying to argue that Mclaren should have swapped drivers… imagine Piastri winning and Norris coming 3rd because of a team order for one second. Then imagine Piastri winning the championship by a handful of points.

As if Mclaren would ever have done that the controversy would be off the charts. To me, it’s fairly obvious that if those two are going to overtake each-other it’s going to have to be a fight. They're in a battle for the championship for goodness sakes.

Which is fine on a circuit where racing is possible, as we saw through that 2 hours of dullness, overtaking doesn't really happen in any scenario round Suzuka. Imagine now Verstappen wins the championship from Piastri by a few points, looks even more stupid then.

Besides, why wouldn't McLaren want Piastri winning the championship by a few points? If that's what the result would have been then that's a win for them.

It's a miss from McLaren pure and simple, Piastri had more pace, he could back off and close up at will, if that was Norris' pace as claimed by the engineer, Piastri should have been given a shot to go after Verstappen.

 

[GlamFM]

Piastri didn't have the pace to pass Norris. He only had the pace to get close, but could't do anything in bad air. He would never have gotten past Verstappen. This entire discussion is nonsensical.

I'm also pretty sure Norris was managing the entire time hoping the RB would eat its tires as per usual only it didn't happen because Pirelli brought tires that were way to hard for the new surface.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Alright, here we go into full armchair expert time.

McLaren clearly have an issue where not prioritising drivers is losing them race wins. We had this a few times last year such as Hungary, Monza, and Japan was also a hit they didn't manage correctly. Norris and Piastri are similar in pace and it is correct to let them fight it out for the title because. However, the team isn't helping them defeat drivers from other teams in instances like this where a bit of strategy playing around or swapping drivers would be worth a try because neither driver wants to comply with a team order because it's giving points away to their title rival. Red Bull have at least mastered how to win races with only one car in the fight and how to prioritise. Equal number 1 drivers doesn't work when you have a consistent challenger from another team.

Solution? My solution would be for McLaren to run an alternating #1 role per weekend. One weekend, if in a similar situation, Norris would be the preferred driver, the next weekend it would be Piastri. This is not to say the "#2" for that weekend can't go out and win the race by 20 seconds, but in a case where the team feel the need to "sacrifice" one car for the other's benefit, it's a pre-determined specific car that weekend. This can easily be tweaked later in the season if it turns out one driver has then had three of "their" races needing prioritisation and the other hasn't needed it yet, or if one driver is clearly ahead in the championship. It's not great or perfect, but trying to fight one driver with two who don't want to concede and the team don't want to ask them to concede is causing issues it seems.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Piastri didn't have the pace to pass Norris. He only had the pace to get close, but could't do anything in bad air. He would never have gotten past Verstappen. This entire discussion is nonsensical.

I'm also pretty sure Norris was managing the entire time hoping the RB would eat its tires as per usual only it didn't happen because Pirelli brought tires that were way to hard for the new surface.

Easy to say when we don't know how much more pace Piastri had, it's easy to sit back and say we'll he couldn't get past Norris and wouldn't have passed Verstappen but you don't know that for certain, and McLaren's unwillingness to try, robbed us of any chance to find out.

Piastri had the pace to pass Norris and possibly Verstappen, the circuit and McLaren's strategists are what stopped it from happening.

 

[GlamFM]

Piastri had the pace to pass Norris

Obviously not. Otherwise he would have tried it. He said as much in the interview after the race.

He did not ask the team for permission to overtake - he was always allowed to. He wanted the team to swap them which of course they wouldn't do at this point in the season.

If Oscar wants to get past Norris he will have to overtake him or qualify better just like it would be the other way around.

Nonsensical discussion.

 

[Aphelion]

Which is fine on a circuit where racing is possible, as we saw through that 2 hours of dullness, overtaking doesn't really happen in any scenario round Suzuka. Imagine now Verstappen wins the championship from Piastri by a few points, looks even more stupid then.

Besides, why wouldn't McLaren want Piastri winning the championship by a few points? If that's what the result would have been then that's a win for them.

It's a miss from McLaren pure and simple, Piastri had more pace, he could back off and close up at will, if that was Norris' pace as claimed by the engineer, Piastri should have been given a shot to go after Verstappen.

Just completely disagree. A team orders decision deciding the championship would be absolutely farcical.

Im talking specifically if the championship comes down to Norris and Piastri, should have clarified.

I even agree that the situation isn't good for Mclaren, but doing driver swaps when both drivers are fighting for the championship would be much worse in my opinion.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Just completely disagree. A team orders decision deciding the championship would be absolutely farcical.

Im talking specifically if the championship comes down to Norris and Piastri, should have clarified.

I even agree that the situation isn't good for Mclaren, but doing driver swaps when both drivers are fighting for the championship would be much worse in my opinion.

It's round 3, nothings deciding any championships yet, nothing at all. And if it comes down to Norris and Piastri then McLaren shouldn't care who wins it and how, many a championship has been won with the aid of team orders. I've no doubt one or both drivers will throw away opportunities themselves over the next 20 Grand Prix. To not give the other car a shot is just dumb and blind from McLaren, especially this early in the season.

 

[GlamFM]

It's round 3, nothings deciding any championships yet, nothing at all. And if it comes down to Norris and Piastri then McLaren shouldn't care who wins it and how, many a championship has been won with the aid of team orders. I've no doubt one or both drivers will throw away opportunities themselves over the next 20 Grand Prix. To not give the other car a shot is just dumb and blind from McLaren, especially this early in the season.

Disagree with all of this, and again - nothing suggested Piastri had the pace to pass Verstappen. Nothing.
He didn’t have the pace to fight Lando. He got close with DRS, but had to back off with overheating fronts in bad air.

Team orders for championships - yay
Team orders because we like one driver more - nay.

 

[Aphelion]

nothings deciding any championships yet, nothing at all

This makes no sense, none at all. Every race decides the championship. It's a championship.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Disagree with all of this, and again - nothing suggested Piastri had the pace to pass Verstappen. Nothing.
He didn’t have the pace to fight Lando. He got close with DRS, but had to back off with overheating fronts in bad air.

Team orders for championships - yay
Team orders because we like one driver more - nay.

That's your opinion, that's fine. We will never have proof because it couldn't happen. Also has nothing to do with liking one driver more than the other, is called common sense to allow what appears to be the faster car at the time, have a shot at going for the lead, as has happened on countless occasions in the past.

This makes no sense, none at all. Every race decides the championship. It's a championship.

Is it? Shock horror. Learn something new every day.

Still isn't a championship deciding move, it is however a sensible move to push for a driver's championship, or, another constructors.

S*** like this is why Verstappen won the drivers title last year.

 

[GlamFM]

That's your opinion, that's fine

Piastri couldn’t pass Norris. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact.

You thinking that that Oscar would have had a shot at winning if McLaren had switched however is an opinion. A far fetched one I might add.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Piastri couldn’t pass Norris. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact.

You thinking that that Oscar would have had a shot at winning if McLaren had switched however is an opinion. A far fetched one I might add.

Okie dokie 👌

 

[Aphelion]

S*** like this is why Verstappen won the drivers title last year.

I don't understand why Max Verstappen winning the championship was a bad thing to you, but there we are. I think he earned it. It's also just completely a false equivalence, Mclaren didn't really have two drivers competing for the championship last year, now they absolutely do. Max also beat Norris by over 50 points last year, no team order could have bridged that gap.

Team orders are pretty much always a bad thing to me, they shouldn't happen. I might understand if Piastri and Verstappen were miles ahead of everyone else and fighting for points, but as you say, it's the third race of the championship. These three drivers are all fighting for the championship. Mclaren even have nearly double the points of Red Bull right now in the constructors, so it makes perfect sense to me that Mclaren just wanted to hold onto the 2-3 instead of risk everything for a few extra points. They also handily outscored Red Bull this race.

You obviously just wanted a more exciting race. You didnt happen to be one of the stewards at the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP, did you?

 

[Will27]

McLaren should've tried because both drivers are employed by the team and 1st and 3rd is better than 2nd and 3rd. If Piastri couldn't pass Verstappen then tell him to give 2nd back to Norris before the flag. Plenty of gap back to Leclerc in 4th, its really not that hard.

The only reason I can see not to do it is if they were worried about how hard Verstappen would defend, potential damage etc.
Race was 😴

 

[McLaren]

Alright, here we go into full armchair expert time.

McLaren clearly have an issue where not prioritising drivers is losing them race wins. We had this a few times last year such as Hungary, Monza, and Japan was also a hit they didn't manage correctly. Norris and Piastri are similar in pace and it is correct to let them fight it out for the title because. However, the team isn't helping them defeat drivers from other teams in instances like this where a bit of strategy playing around or swapping drivers would be worth a try because neither driver wants to comply with a team order because it's giving points away to their title rival. Red Bull have at least mastered how to win races with only one car in the fight and how to prioritise. Equal number 1 drivers doesn't work when you have a consistent challenger from another team.

Solution? My solution would be for McLaren to run an alternating #1 role per weekend. One weekend, if in a similar situation, Norris would be the preferred driver, the next weekend it would be Piastri. This is not to say the "#2" for that weekend can't go out and win the race by 20 seconds, but in a case where the team feel the need to "sacrifice" one car for the other's benefit, it's a pre-determined specific car that weekend. This can easily be tweaked later in the season if it turns out one driver has then had three of "their" races needing prioritisation and the other hasn't needed it yet, or if one driver is clearly ahead in the championship. It's not great or perfect, but trying to fight one driver with two who don't want to concede and the team don't want to ask them to concede is causing issues it seems.

Not a terrible idea. I'm quite positive we've seen the teams let it known when it's 1 driver's turn to do a specific role during a weekend on a smaller scale.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I don't understand why Max Verstappen winning the championship was a bad thing to you, but there we are. I think he earned it. It's also just completely a false equivalence, Mclaren didn't really have two drivers competing for the championship last year, now they absolutely do. Max also beat Norris by over 50 points last year, no team order could have bridged that gap.

Team orders are pretty much always a bad thing to me, they shouldn't happen. I might understand if Piastri and Verstappen were miles ahead of everyone else and fighting for points, but as you say, it's the third race of the championship. These three drivers are all fighting for the championship. Mclaren even have nearly double the points of Red Bull right now in the constructors, so it makes perfect sense to me that Mclaren just wanted to hold onto the 2-3 instead of risk everything for a few extra points. They also handily outscored Red Bull this race.

You obviously just wanted a more exciting race. You didnt happen to be one of the stewards at the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP, did you?

If you can point me towards where I said it was a bad thing Verstappen won the title?

You can't see or understand what means others are trying to say so there's absolutely no point continuing this discussion. Plus, if you think that wanting to see a team actually give their equal number 1 drivers fair shake of challenging for a race win as equal to Abu Dhabi '21 then I don't even know what to say to you.

To the ignore list!

 

[SPDN Stefano]

McLaren should've tried because both drivers are employed by the team and 1st and 3rd is better than 2nd and 3rd. If Piastri couldn't pass Verstappen then tell him to give 2nd back to Norris before the flag. Plenty of gap back to Leclerc in 4th, its really not that hard.

The only reason I can see not to do it is if they were worried about how hard Verstappen would defend, potential damage etc.
Race was 😴

No way, if Piastri didn't give the place back it would create a huge controversy and the whole atmosphere in the team would be ruined. Like Vettel vs Webber or Hamilton vs Rosberg. If Piastri was so fast he should have passed Norris but clearly he couldn't.

McLaren should just keep it simple this season. If you don't like driving behind your teammate you should qualify better or overtake him. If one driver ends up being far behind in the points standing and the other is fighting Max for the championship they can declare a 'nr. 1 driver' and start using teamorders. But now it is way to early in the season for that.

 

[GlamFM]

McLaren should've tried because both drivers are employed by the team and 1st and 3rd is better than 2nd and 3rd. If Piastri couldn't pass Verstappen then tell him to give 2nd back to Norris before the flag. Plenty of gap back to Leclerc in 4th, its really not that hard.

The only reason I can see not to do it is if they were worried about how hard Verstappen would defend, potential damage etc.
Race was 😴

Putting the drivers in order of laptime is what you do on Saturdays. Sundays are for racing.


I will change my tune once we are way later in the season and one driver maybe pulls away, like it was in the last season towards the end. Right now, after 3 races, however, this is absolutely not on.
Both McLaren drivers are in the fight for the Drivers' Championship, and giving one of them an advantage over the other would not only go against the integrity of the sport, but also McLaren’s philosophy.
Lando had track position and outqualified Oscar — that's why he is second. As it should be.


Let them race.

If you can point me towards where I said it was a bad thing Verstappen won the title?

You can't see or understand what means others are trying to say so there's absolutely no point continuing this discussion. Plus, if you think that wanting to see a team actually give their equal number 1 drivers fair shake of challenging for a race win as equal to Abu Dhabi '21 then I don't even know what to say to you.

To the ignore list!

I think the view that team orders are fair while racing is not is one you hold exclusively.
Both drivers are indeed #1, but that means the exact opposite of what you seem to think it does.

 

[Aphelion]

If you can point me towards where I said it was a bad thing Verstappen won the title?

You can't see or understand what means others are trying to say so there's absolutely no point continuing this discussion. Plus, if you think that wanting to see a team actually give their equal number 1 drivers fair shake of challenging for a race win as equal to Abu Dhabi '21 then I don't even know what to say to you.

To the ignore list!

Seriously? Just childish. I'm guessing all the people in this thread disagreeing with you are also on your ignore list?

 

[toastet]

 

[Fezzik]

Have to agree with Max, if he was in the orange car the others would never even see him.

 

[sillybilly]

That's your opinion, that's fine. We will never have proof because it couldn't happen. Also has nothing to do with liking one driver more than the other, is called common sense to allow what appears to be the faster car at the time, have a shot at going for the lead, as has happened on countless occasions in the past.

Is it? Shock horror. Learn something new every day.

Still isn't a championship deciding move, it is however a sensible move to push for a driver's championship, or, another constructors.

S*** like this is why Verstappen won the drivers title last year.

Teams bad strategies is why Verstappen won the drivers title?

I am not sure I understand. I think he won the championship with an unassailable lead after the first 10 races or so, then no other driver was good enough to collect enough points to catch up.

Ironically, if McLaren had switched positions early and Piastri was able to pass Verstappen, then Norris would lose 3 points from the result and Verstappen would lose 7 points, so it would have been net 4 point gain for Norris versus Verstappen.

This sort of result happened twice in 2010 and twice in 2012 where Webber beat Alonso on a day Vettel was behind Alonso. Both titles were decided by a margin between Vettel and Alonso less than the relative gains on those two races. I think RedBull's WDC wins there are the best gains of any team from a strong second driver in the last twenty years.

I am just so confused by the ongoing rhetoric that RedBull are better off with the golden child philosophy of focusing on a single driver and anecdotally accepting significant cost of the second driver performance.

Why does RedBull continue to act this way, commentators make comments that it makes the team stronger, fans repeat the idiom?
More confusing to me is that is has largely become a self-fulfilling prophesy despite the lack of logic.

Disagree with all of this, and again - nothing suggested Piastri had the pace to pass Verstappen. Nothing.

Actually the ideal lap from qualiftying showed Piastri might have had the best handle on the track of all drivers and was unlucky to not get his lap together.

Piastri was never going to try a risky move on Norris for throwing team points away, so there was never serious pressure on Norris that could force an error.. If Piatri was pushing in the DRS behind Verstappen the situation might have been very different.

Have to agree with Max, if he was in the orange car the others would never even see him.

Assuming that his driving style suits the orange car and all the other variables, sure it's hypothetically logically possible... but it is also irrelevant, more so childish mind games maybe that's no irrelevant and the psych out is a chance to beat Norris.

If Norris got his ideal lap in qualifying, he would have likely won the race by 5 seconds or more and had very little pressure.

If Piastri got his ideal lap in qualifying he would have likely won the race by 10 seconds of more - the other cars "would neer have seen him".

 

[sillybilly]

Putting the drivers in order of laptime is what you do on Saturdays. Sundays are for racing.


I will change my tune once we are way later in the season and one driver maybe pulls away, like it was in the last season towards the end. Right now, after 3 races, however, this is absolutely not on.
Both McLaren drivers are in the fight for the Drivers' Championship, and giving one of them an advantage over the other would not only go against the integrity of the sport, but also McLaren’s philosophy.
Lando had track position and outqualified Oscar — that's why he is second. As it should be.


Let them race.

Its a team sport and the team has to make the tough calls on advantaging or disadvantaging drivers all the way...
"the integrity of the sport" ?? haha this is Fl

McLaren disadvantaged Norris by pitting Piastri first allowing an undercut, usually lead driver has first option?

McLaren disadvantaged Piastri by pitting prematurely to cover potential attack from cars behind despite earlier pitstops showing not a big undercut gains in performance, and the pace of the cars behind were not great.

McLaren disadvantaged Norris pitting him on the same lap and Verstappen despite the data showing weak undercut, the McLaren car pace was such that even an overcut might be possible, could they at least try ?

McLaren disadvantaged Norris by not encouraging him to pressurise Verstappen into a mistake, maybe Norris just didnt have the pace.

McLaren disadvantaged Piastri by not trying a position swap - they have done position swap and position re-corrections in the past the the world did not end.

McLaren disadvantaged Norris by not allowing Piastri to potentially take points out of Verstappen that would have made their positions closer.

McLaren disadvantaged the fans because it didn't make any sensible or interesting split strategy to make an interesting strategic race, they doubled down on this by letting the drivers procession around the whole last stint for an exceedingly boring race.

I am a McLaren fan but they really dropped the ball.

Let them race for the team?
Let them race for the fans?
or Let them "race" in the stalemate of dirty air tyre management processsion and do not risk taking points from team with any mistakes?

 

[Aphelion]

Its a team sport and the team has to make the tough calls on advantaging or disadvantaging drivers all the way...
"the integrity of the sport" ?? haha this is Fl

McLaren disadvantaged Norris by pitting Piastri first allowing an undercut, usually lead driver has first option?

McLaren disadvantaged Piastri by pitting prematurely to cover potential attack from cars behind despite earlier pitstops showing not a big undercut gains in performance, and the pace of the cars behind were not great.

McLaren disadvantaged Norris pitting him on the same lap and Verstappen despite the data showing weak undercut, the McLaren car pace was such that even an overcut might be possible, could they at least try ?

McLaren disadvantaged Norris by not encouraging him to pressurise Verstappen into a mistake, maybe Norris just didnt have the pace.

McLaren disadvantaged Piastri by not trying a position swap - they have done position swap and position re-corrections in the past the the world did not end.

McLaren disadvantaged Norris by not allowing Piastri to potentially take points out of Verstappen that would have made their positions closer.

McLaren disadvantaged the fans because it didn't make any sensible or interesting split strategy to make an interesting strategic race, they doubled down on this by letting the drivers procession around the whole last stint for an exceedingly boring race.

I am a McLaren fan but they really dropped the ball.

Let them race for the team?
Let them race for the fans?
or Let them "race" in the stalemate of dirty air tyre management processsion and do not risk taking points from team with any mistakes?

Thank you earnestly for actually providing an argument with your opinion, I generally agree with everything here.

I think I am still feeling that, based on the way things are currently going (although it could very easily change, and damn is Max punching above that redbulls weight at the moment), I think the two drivers most likely to be fighting for the championship at the end of the season will be Norris and Piastri, so I am still kind of glad that they decided not to swap drivers. I feel as though if they had, it would have been equally controversial, just with a different section of the audience. In every other way though, Mclaren totally dropped the ball this race in the strategy department.

 

[GlamFM]

Piastri was never going to try a risky move on Norris for throwing team points away

Nah. Have you seen last season? He totally would have - he just couldn’t. Said as much in the post race interview.

I know McLaren have swapped and swapped back drivers before. 2 key differences here:

1. They knew Piastri didn’t have the pace to overtake Norris let alone Versappen.

2. (this is the big one) they weren’t in a title fight with both their drivers before.

 

[GlamFM]

.