Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Scaff]

Quick vid I put together to show the imrpovemnets the last few updates have made to GT5.

BRZ on CM



The poor quality is down to it coming off my phone, damn PD and the removal of the youtube up-loader from the original game spec.

 

[Aquarelle]

Forza's physics are incredibly realistic, this happens to me all the time while driving:

I literally can't stop laughing.. that has to be some kind of joke.

(The physics, not your statement)

But yeah this thread is about Forza 4 not horizon 👍

 

[Brend]

Quick vid I put together to show the imrpovemnets the last few updates have made to GT5.

BRZ on CM

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc459ZGIge8">YouTube Link</a>

The poor quality is down to it coming off my phone, damn PD and the removal of the youtube up-loader from the original game spec.

At least the 'share button' and GT6 will be beautiful together.

That Forza Horizon vid actually killed my throat, I just didn't expect it. Good game though. 👍

 

[Dusty1990]

I've owned Forza 4 for quite some time now, and I've had GT5 since launch, and to be honest - I love BOTH games! There's just one comparison I'd like to make, and that's a huge difference between the two games. I am talking of course about the physics.

Let me start by just stating that I absolutely enjoy the heck out of Forza 4. It's a great game, a wholly complete package and it's filled to the brim with things to earn, collect and find out.

There's just one issue with Forza 4 compared to GT5 (despite all it's pro's over GT, sorry guys but it's true). It's something I actually found out because of my girlfriend (hey, I'm training my girlfriend to be my moneymonkey!)

I saw her play both GT5 and Forza 4 for quite some time, but the difference between the games is that in GT5, with a fully souped up Mustang, she doesn't make it through any of the first three corners of Laguna Seca at all (I like that circuit as much as the Nurb for training), while in Forza, she runs the track and destroys the competition with ease (and it's set to professional, the A.I. I mean, combined with the sim steering settings and every assist off). Both games are played with a pad because the wheel (DFGT) is still off-limits for her (her own words). That got me thinking, is GT5 more realistic because of it's difficulty or is Forza more true to life because of it's simplicity?

This is not to provoke anything, it just struck me like lightning. What are your thoughts on how this can be? Is either game more realistic because of it's simplicity or difficulty or was my girlfriend just born to be a Forza pro?

Running Forza without aids is relatively easy compared to GT5. I played Forza 3 and 4 without any aids and got pretty good (just left forza as top hardcore on forzastats), now started playing GT5 and turned off aids from the get go, getting the traction and weight transference seems alot more realistic/tough.

 

[Exorcet]

Difficulty and realism are two very different things, and if GT is harder it probably comes from the tire model which can be down right ridiculous. Just yesterday I was doing laps with the Hennessey Venom in free run and it felt great. All the grip you'd expect in a supercar, and all the lack of grip you'd expect from a 1200 hp engine.

Any similar car in GT5 is a joke (though I'm a few updates behind) as there is just zero grip under acceleration unless you use very good tires, and in the corners, nearly everything feels the same and a bit dead.

I really have to be suspicious about you last comment though. Traction and weight transfer are two areas where Forza destroys GT. FWD cars in GT understeer all day no matter how lazy you get with the gas unless the new updates were super significant, and the difference in grip is clear enough from the tire models of both games.

 

[Dusty1990]

Difficulty and realism are two very different things, and if GT is harder it probably comes from the tire model which can be down right ridiculous. Just yesterday I was doing laps with the Hennessey Venom in free run and it felt great. All the grip you'd expect in a supercar, and all the lack of grip you'd expect from a 1200 hp engine.

Any similar car in GT5 is a joke (though I'm a few updates behind) as there is just zero grip under acceleration unless you use very good tires, and in the corners, nearly everything feels the same and a bit dead.

I really have to be suspicious about you last comment though. Traction and weight transfer are two areas where Forza destroys GT. FWD cars in GT understeer all day no matter how lazy you get with the gas unless the new updates were super significant, and the difference in grip is clear enough from the tire models of both games.

Gt5 feels more realistic to me, I've driven some very fast and powerful cars and gt5 just emulates the driving experience better, to me.

But hey, its just an opinion.

When I first installed GT5 the updates took over 2 hours to load in, maybe somethings improved/changed?

 

[Scaff]

Gt5 feels more realistic to me, I've driven some very fast and powerful cars and gt5 just emulates the driving experience better, to me.

But hey, its just an opinion.

When I first installed GT5 the updates took over 2 hours to load in, maybe somethings improved/changed?

It is and I've my fair share of track time in a wide range of cars and would have to say that I disagree with you.

In terms of suspension modeling and tyre model FM4 still beats GT5. PD have got a lot closer with suspension over the last few updates but the tyre model is still a long way from FM4's.

 

[sparkytooth]

It is and I've my fair share of track time in a wide range of cars and would have to say that I disagree with you.

In terms of suspension modeling and tyre model FM4 still beats GT5. PD have got a lot closer with suspension over the last few updates but the tyre model is still a long way from FM4's.

I've never really payed attention to the tyre models until GT5,maybe because I've started to fully understand cars and their characteristics by the time I played GTPSP (which is when I started to use my current driving style and no assists),the Tyre model in GT5 is so-so at best (still better than an NFS game) but I do think it does it's job admirably,the tyres die too fast...

Setting the tyres and suspension aside I still consider GT5 over Forza in physics,in car list Forza wins.

 

[Scaff]

Setting the tyres and suspension aside I still consider GT5 over Forza in physics,in car list Forza wins.

If your talking about physics you can't really set the tyres and suspension aside can you, the tyre model in particular is rather important, being as its the only bit that actually connects the car to the track surface.

Every other part of the physics could be 100% accurate, but you get the tyres wrong and all that hard work starts getting thrown out the window.

 

[Spagetti69]

Setting the tyres and suspension aside

You have a brick.

 

[Samus]

That is pretty funny, set aside probably the two most important parts of the physics engine and GT is better.

 

[sparkytooth]

That is pretty funny, set aside probably the two most important parts of the physics engine and GT is better.

Well....I put them aside because people will still state that Forza beats GT in Tyres and Suspension (which I can't really compare in suspension),the suspension isn't so bad either (it's good enough IMO).I still consider the Tyre wear and grip to be a little off in GT5 (Too much grip for Racing Softs).I have rarely played Forza but I just can't get to driving right off the bat with all assists off and MT as I do in GT5 (which is odd as I've played all sorts of driving games similar to GT and Forza)...

 

[Samus]

So which part of the physics engine does GT5 beat Forza 4?

 

[Scaff]

Well....I put them aside because people will still state that Forza beats GT in Tyres and Suspension (which I can't really compare in suspension),the suspension isn't so bad either (it's good enough IMO).I still consider the Tyre wear and grip to be a little off in GT5 (Too much grip for Racing Softs).I have rarely played Forza but I just can't get to driving right off the bat with all assists off and MT as I do in GT5 (which is odd as I've played all sorts of driving games similar to GT and Forza)...

The suspension is much better now following the last few updates, its still got some work to do, but overall its been the main area they seem to have focused on with the updates.

It was mainly that I was focusing on in the video I put up.

I'm going to try the Jensen Interceptor later as well, as that thing used to have some rather overdamped suspension in comparison to the real thing:



Not my video, but the handbrake turn at the end clearly shows the overdamping (the car settles on the spring far to quickly). If I get a chance later I will give it a run and see what its like (I think I have one - will have to check my garage).

 

[sparkytooth]

So which part of the physics engine does GT5 beat Forza 4?

Sorry if I'm contradicting myself but just about everywhere.Even though the Tyres aren't the best (even though Kaz focused quite a lot on that during development) Forza has Pirelli Tyres help so Forza wins here,GT5's tyre modelling needs improvement,the suspension is quite good (you feel the necessary differences between all drivetrain types and power levels of cars) and you aren't jumping and rolling around randomly after hitting a kerb,I haven't used mechanical damage much but what I've seen it's very punishing (when Heavy damage is on),Dirt physics modelling (Is in Horizon but the subject here is Forza 4).the one golden difference where it destroys Forza is weather physics (obviously),it's much harder to control a car in rain (especially a Group C monster) and I love the interior view while driving in Rain (much harder and I love it).actual damage modelling is given to forza as well.

The overall Feel of GT5 is IMO more immersive even in Standard cars (Yes I don't give a single buck about standards).

I am not biased my friends.I would go out and buy Forza 4 if I had a 360,too bad I only own and can own a PS3,and I don't seem to find the 360 more interesting without Forza (exclusives my *** I don't need Halo and Gears).

 

[Scaff]

Sorry if I'm contradicting myself but just about everywhere.Even though the Tyres aren't the best (even though Kaz focused quite a lot on that during development) Forza has Pirelli Tyres help so Forza wins here,GT5's tyre modelling needs improvement,the suspension is quite good (you feel the necessary differences between all drivetrain types and power levels of cars) and you aren't jumping and rolling around randomly after hitting a kerb,

Tyre and suspension improvements are certainly needed in the future, but its good to see that with the updates PD are moving things in the right direction.

I haven't used mechanical damage much but what I've seen it's very punishing (when Heavy damage is on),

actual damage modelling is given to forza as well.

You are aware that FM4 also has mechanical damage as well, and I would have to say that its more punishing than that of GT5's.

It however does fall into the topic of this thread (by physics we are talking vehicle dynamics).

Dirt physics modelling (Is in Horizon but the subject here is Forza 4).

Have you driven on many gravel rally stages at all?

GT5 does not get this right at all, Richard Burns Rally and Enthusia had them beat back on the PS2 and to date PD haven't made great moves towards fixing it at all.

the one golden difference where it destroys Forza is weather physics (obviously),it's much harder to control a car in rain (especially a Group C monster) and I love the interior view while driving in Rain (much harder and I love it).

The weather in GT5 does look spectacular, however from a phsics point of view its totally reliant on the tyre model, and all its doing in GT5 is changing the lat and long g values assigned to the car and tyre type.

GT5's tyre model doesn't allow it to do any more than that, so sorry I would have to disagree on that side. This does go back to my earlier point that if your tyre model is not up to scratch then any other part of your physics model will suffer.

The overall Feel of GT5 is IMO more immersive even in Standard cars (Yes I don't give a single buck about standards).

I am not biased my friends.I would go out and buy Forza 4 if I had a 360,too bad I only own and can own a PS3,and I don't seem to find the 360 more interesting without Forza (exclusives my *** I don't need Halo and Gears).

To be honest is does sound a lot like most of this is based around your preference for GT5, nothing wrong with that, but combined with what appears to be a limited level of experience with FM4 it does certainly seem to be a factor.

Physics should always use reality as a benchmark and in that regard both titles have some issues (some serious), its simply that FM4 has less issues than GT5.

 

[sparkytooth]

Tyre and suspension improvements are certainly needed in the future, but its good to see that with the updates PD are moving things in the right direction.






You are aware that FM4 also has mechanical damage as well, and I would have to say that its more punishing than that of GT5's.

It however does fall into the topic of this thread (by physics we are talking vehicle dynamics).




Have you driven on many gravel rally stages at all?

GT5 does not get this right at all, Richard Burns Rally and Enthusia had them beat back on the PS2 and to date PD haven't made great moves towards fixing it at all.




The weather in GT5 does look spectacular, however from a phsics point of view its totally reliant on the tyre model, and all its doing in GT5 is changing the lat and long g values assigned to the car and tyre type.

GT5's tyre model doesn't allow it to do any more than that, so sorry I would have to disagree on that side. This does go back to my earlier point that if your tyre model is not up to scratch then any other part of your physics model will suffer.





To be honest is does sound a lot like most of this is based around your preference for GT5, nothing wrong with that, but combined with what appears to be a limited level of experience with FM4 it does certainly seem to be a factor.

Physics should always use reality as a benchmark and in that regard both titles have some issues (some serious), its simply that FM4 has less issues than GT5.

Well for Dirt I just don't really use it much,I don't really see many issues with GT5 at all aside from the obvious Standard vs Premium and the shadows and textures for some of the courses which are not physics related.I do prefer GT5 but I also appreciate Forza and as I stated before if I had a 360 I'd buy Forza (I love the car list most of all but don't like the track variety which GT also sort of went back on in GT5 vs GT4),the tyre values should be revised and thanks for pointing out the weather tyre thing:tup:,they should not have set assigned values for the tyres and instead make them dynamic (don't know much about programming or game development).As for the suspension at least it's better than in November 2010 .Still GT over Forza despite GT5's faults.

P.S.:Scaff,I have never played RBR ,just CMR 2.0,CMR 05 and a few others (Dirt isn't my thing).

Yes I know Forza has mechanical damage (one of the things it used to have over GT).

 

[shved111]

a little strange flight

 

[Lock2Lock]

a little strange flight

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV8uYh9dveI">YouTube Link</a>

Looks like artificial weight transfer to me honestly. Like something straight out of Midnight Club

 

[Tornado]

It's a delayed aerodynamic reaction to the car coming off the ground. Same thing happens in GT5 at Cape Ring:

 

[ReverenceSatans]

a little strange flight

This isn't really a physics issue.

The wierd changes in car directions in replays are due to replay data compression. In FM4 it is shameful and makes watching replays cringe worthy at times.

I had a top 50 (now top 150) leaderboard time in the Audi DTM car at Hockenheim and the replay you can view throgh the leaderboard looks nothing like what the actual lap was. The car moves strangely and the drivers hands are very poorly recreated.

 

[Spawinte]

As an addendum to the thing I brought up a few pages ago. I downloaded the Porsche pack this morning and spent all day playing it. Second thing I did was take the 914-6 out to screw around with my 3rd favorite car from Porsche Unleashed.


So of course I hit a curb and it rolled. Now... I know it's a really light car that isn't that wide on old suspension. But it's also a car that sits so low that you can simulate it by sitting in a lawn chair, so... it really doesn't seem right for that to happen.

This is an unfortunate symptom of the biggest problem with Forza and it's NOT the physics. It's track accuracy, specifically Turn10s unending love for absolutely colossally gigantic kerbs. In addition to the size of the things they seem to have a saw tooth design the height of dinner knives.

Check out the suspension movement over kerbs in Forza. Also head to Nordschleife (Mugello is quite bad too) and have a look at the height of some of them. In a low mid engined sports car they are often half the height of the car.

I think it's pretty well known that T10 modifies tracks for easier racing with many cars by increasing width and length. It's the only thing about the game that really disappoints me.

 

[Crispy9001]

Crap, I voted but I haven't played Forza 4 yet. Sorry.
Well, GT5 seems like a winner on the poll results, and right off the bat, despite my lack of any experience with Forza 4, and more with GT, GT5 supposedly to many people seems more realistic physics-wise. So IMO GT5.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

Crap, I voted but I haven't played Forza 4 yet. Sorry.
Well, GT5 seems like a winner on the poll results, and right off the bat, despite my lack of any experience with Forza 4, and more with GT, GT5 supposedly to many people seems more realistic physics-wise. So IMO GT5.

I'd say there is bias in this poll. This is a GT dedicated website after all. How do we know the people who voted GT5 actually played both games?

 

[Exorcet]

Crap, I voted but I haven't played Forza 4 yet. Sorry.
Well, GT5 seems like a winner on the poll results, and right off the bat, despite my lack of any experience with Forza 4, and more with GT, GT5 supposedly to many people seems more realistic physics-wise. So IMO GT5.

Read the posts, not the polls. You'll see many people supporting GT and then not giving a reason why, or a reason that makes no sense at all.

And it's bit ironic that you trust a poll that you just used incorrectly.

 

[Crispy9001]

I'd say there is bias in this poll. This is a GT dedicated website after all. How do we know the people who voted GT5 actually played both games?

Too much bias, definitely.

 

[Spagetti69]

I'd say there is bias in this poll. This is a GT dedicated website after all. How do we know the people who voted GT5 actually played both games?

Poll is redundant anyhow. To be even moderately correct a new poll would have to be made every time PD tinkered with physics. That would just get silly though.

I'm gonna stick with the franchise that's happy with its physics model and doesn't have to fix it every two minutes. I think that speaks for itself.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Crap, I voted but I haven't played Forza 4 yet. Sorry.
Well, GT5 seems like a winner on the poll results, and right off the bat, despite my lack of any experience with Forza 4, and more with GT, GT5 supposedly to many people seems more realistic physics-wise. So IMO GT5.

"I have yet to see X movie, but I can already declare Y movie as movie of the year."



Spag-man has a solid point; it's incredibly hard to compare the two when PD sees fit to change the physics nearly every update. Which is more than a bit annoying, especially as changes are rarely fully documented.

 

[BigViperNumber1]

GT5 is more realistic as they did a test with both on the nurburgring and gt5 was closest to the real time driven. They used the same car for all of them and same tires and aids etc.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

GT5 is more realistic as they did a test with both on the nurburgring and gt5 was closest to the real time driven. They used the same car for all of them and same tires and aids etc.

You have a requirement to fulfill.

This has been covered numerous times in this very thread; lap times mean very little with regards to "realism". Even less so on the Nurburgring, where lap times can vary by whole seconds even on consecutive laps at the real track due to its length.

So, no.