Forza Motorsport 4 - General Discussion

[NA]

Does this to me once and awhile also. Never figured out exactly why, but clearing cookies and temp files from my browser seems to fix it for me.

 

[buttsneeze]

Can someone please beat some sense into the idiots in the official FM.net forum steering assist thread making up all sorts of ******** about aligning torque and slip angle to pretend the assist isn't there?

It's infuriating seeing a guy post a wall of text of absolute false drivel and having people actually devour the BS and take his side.

 

[tfujiwara]

Why do people hate Forza so much?

 

[buttsneeze]

Why do people hate Forza so much?

Who hates Forza here? None of us hate Forza. I've been a fan since the first game. The new game is absolutely brilliant except for the steering assist, which Dan Greenawalt specifically said would be gone in simulation steering, but it isn't. We're frustrated because it's so close to being everything we wanted but this one little thing is ruining it. If I hated Forza I wouldn't be spending a good portion of my free time trying to get a problem with it fixed. I simply wouldn't play it.

 

[JJ72]

I am really still on the fence about that, surely we have seen evidence, but there may be more than one cause to that, and I don't believe in this age Dan would think it is possible to blatantly lie about something everyone can and will test to the death. I believe there are other reasons which may be still unknown.

Bottom line is it feels great, the difference compare to FM3 is huge enough that I don't regret pre-ordering. Will be good to know the truth but us the fans are not the one who gets to look at the codes, so we can't be absolutely sure if it's intentional or a factor of other effects.

 

[buttsneeze]

I am really still on the fence about that, surely we have seen evidence, but there may be more than one cause to that, and I don't believe in this age Dan would think it is possible to blatantly lie about something everyone can and will test to the death. I believe there are other reasons which may be still unknown.

Bottom line is it feels great, the difference compare to FM3 is huge enough that I don't regret pre-ordering. Will be good to know the truth but us the fans are not the one who gets to look at the codes, so we can't be absolutely sure if it's intentional or a factor of other effects.

Have you driven the game with a Fanatec wheel set to 900 degrees detected correctly? I don't see how someone with more than two brain cells can do that and not notice the assist when oversteering. I don't know why there's still any debate about whether or not the assist is there. It's been proven. You might as well start denying the moon landing and telling me the sky isn't blue.

 

[JJ72]

Get off me, I have a GT2 and why are you getting verbally aggressive?

speed sensitive steering is there, but for the sudden counter steer can you rule out all other possibilities?? I am just looking further than what two sides has presented because so far it doesn't add up.

 

[buttsneeze]

Get off me, I have a GT2 and why are you getting verbally aggressive?

Because I'm sick of this ****. It's been proven over and over that the assist is there, and if you still continue to deny it I'm just going to assume you're stupid.

 

[buttsneeze]

speed sensitive steering is there, but for the sudden counter steer can you rule out all other possibilities?? I am just looking further than what two sides has presented because so far it doesn't add up.

The only thing that doesn't add up is the gibberish the opposing side has been making up to justify T10's decision to leave the counter steer assist in. There is SOLID, IRREFUTABLE evidence of the assist in this video. The accuracy of the telemetry wheel is not up for debate. It is known to be an exact representation of how the front wheels are turned. Anyone who's tried drifting or had any oversteer in the Forza 4 demo with a Fanatec will know about the assist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCbbkHUGOTo

 

[JJ72]

I am not doubting the situation exists, I am doubting if it is indeed intentionally coded in or a factor of multiple effects they did not forseen.

Forget it, it's like trying to reason with an angry mob.

 

[12thgear]

I am not doubting the situation exists, I am doubting if it is indeed intentionally coded in or a factor of multiple effects they did not forseen.

This is what I'd like to know too.

I finally had a chance to play with the demo today, using my GT2 wheel. I specifically tried to replicate the issue, and sure enough, I could. It's an annoyance in an otherwise nicely improved driving model.

 

[buttsneeze]

Yeah, it's especially frustrating because the physics are so good but they're masked by this weird counter steer assist.

 

[omgitsbees]

Why do people hate Forza so much?

This being a primary Gran Turismo forum, you are going to get a lot of haters and people who refuse to believe that Forza is objectively a much better sim and more importantly, a lot more fun to play.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

This being a primary Gran Turismo forum, you are going to get a lot of haters and people who refuse to believe that Forza is objectively a much better sim and more importantly, a lot more fun to play.

It has nothing to do with that. The majority of the people in this forum love Forza. You do occasionally get the drifters that come in from the GT5 v FM thread but mostly everyone here has been posting in this forum for months in anticipation of release. Of course since you have been here for a whole 2 months you wouldn't know that.

None of us hate Forza.

We are simply trying to get an assist that is not suppose to be there removed.

How hard is that to understand?

 

[omgitsbees]

We are simply trying to get an assist that is not suppose to be there removed.

How hard is that to understand?

Except it's not there, at all and if it is, it's so minor, that complaining about it is pretty dumb.

 

[Eric.]

I guess I'll go download the demo since I'm not doing anything productive and I'll chime in about how the gamepad experience is.

 

[JJ72]

There seems to be two camp, one that set in stone DAN IS LYING and it starting a crusade about it.

Another is the ones who really want to work out the reasons and hope to discover it trusting Turn 10 also does wants to provide a simulation steering.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

Except it's not there, at all and if it is, it's so minor, that complaining about it is pretty dumb.

It is there. It has been confirmed by multiple people. So, your opinion on its presence really means little to none.

Regardless, Thomas of Fanatec is now aware of the matter. So expect some news shortly.

 

[buttsneeze]

Except it's not there, at all and if it is, it's so minor, that complaining about it is pretty dumb.

So you're going to watch this video with a straight face and tell me that's direct, linear, unassisted steering? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCbbkHUGOTo&feature=feedlik

Do you have a Fanatec wheel? Do you have a good sense of how a real car should behave? Have you experienced for yourself the effects of the steering assist? I'm guessing you're going to answer no to all three of those questions so you really shouldn't even be in this conversation. Go enjoy the game with your controller and let the adults talk about the things that concern them.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

So you're going to watch this video with a straight face and tell me that's direct, linear, unassisted steering? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCbbkHUGOTo&feature=feedlik

Thomas replied to my post in the Fanatec thread. If anyone can hold T10 accountable it is him. Hopefully, he can do something.

 

[JJ72]

It is there. It has been confirmed by multiple people. So, your opinion on its presence really means little to none.

Regardless, Thomas of Fanatec is now aware of the matter. So expect some news shortly.

Great to hear.

If this can be sort out among the fans, Turn10 and Fanatec it will do the credibility of the franchise much good. After all the under the hood interviews I will be sad all the honestly before launch has been tattered with this one problem.

 

[JJ72]

best answer I have found on FM.net so far.

"Let me explain how the different wheels work and what forza does to allow people to use different peripherals.

A 270 degree wheel in simulation steering mode is mapped 1 to 1 with the on screen telemetry and directly correlates to the graphical representation of the steering angle of the front wheels. Also in the cockpit view you see that it maps directly with the first 160 degrees of rotation of the in car wheel.

So if you are stopped telemetry will match exactly the angle of your 270 degree wheel.

As you increase in speed the sensitivity is lowered to allow more precise handling of the vehicle. The tolerances for good traction depend on maintaining a precise slip angle and turn 10 even in simulation mode has speed sensitive steering with 270 degree wheels. This makes sense. Now what happens when you oversteer? As you begin to correct your oversteer and steer into opposite lock the speed sensitivity goes AWAY. This also makes sense. The wheel angles necessary to catch a lurid drift wouldn't be possible on a 270 degree wheel if we still had the lowered sensitivity due to speed. When you've caught the vehicle the lowered sensitivity due to speed returns.

Now for a 900 degree wheel

When you are stopped the entire 900 degree range is mapped to telemetry... but remember the telemetry wheel only moves 270 degrees (probably a bit less). While the telemetry mapping seems non-linear doing small circles in the car at lock and full lock seem to correlate well to a real vehicle at those steering angles. For our purpose I'll say that 900 degree steering when you are not sliding or slipping is linear. Now as you increase in speed there might be a small speed based sensitivity but it's small enough that it doesn't matter for the real problem. Remember how in the 270 degree wheel when you went to counter steer the lowered sensitivity due to speed goes away and you can go full opposite lock with the 270 degree wheel? Well this is exactly what happens. For all intents and purposes an 900 degree wheel gains all the sensitivity of a 270 degree wheel when you are counter steering. This means you will never have to use more than 135 degrees of lock to correct a slide. When you are correcting a slide 315 degrees of rotation that you have in your 900 degree wheel are going to complete waste. When traction returns the normal lowered sensitivity of the 900 degree wheel returns.

When you see a video online of someone using 900 degrees of steering to counter steer or drift, they're actually using a trick. The start their wheel up at 270 degrees or under. This tells Forza to map the steering at a 270 degree wheel. Then without turning the wheel off they change the rotation to 900 degrees. Now they can counter steer as the would have to in the real world, the only problem is the wheel is now very insensitive under normal driving conditions. As they increase speed the sensitivity lowers, which means at speed it's like driving a car with a steering lock of 3000 degrees, but darn if it doesn't return to normal 900 degrees when they're counter steering. This might be fun for a street sweeper simulator but obviously isn't an ideal situation."

 

[Eric.]

That sounds very possible. And it could either be intentional or not.

I think we need that same understanding applied for the non-simulation steering mode.

 

[JJ72]

if that is true the solution will be take away speed sensitivity all together for 900 degree wheels (which was possible in FM2), or doesn't adruptly change the rate in sliding conditions.

I think there is a possible solution.

 

[Eric.]

I bet there's one little block of code that does...

IF <car is sliding> {
  IF <countersteering>{
     <activate countersteer assist>}}

 

[JJ72]

Be careful someone quoted it out of excitement and spread like wildfire over the net XDDD

 

[NA]

Be careful someone quoted it out of excitement and spread like wildfire over the net XDDD

Oh boy, and I though things where hitting the peak of "interesting" 6 hours ago. Look out.

 

[Kreepnslayer]

I bet there's one little block of code that does...

IF <car is sliding> {
  IF <countersteering>{
     <activate countersteer assist>}}

Jesus. Here we go.

Where's my popcorn...

 

[buttsneeze]

I bet there's one little block of code that does...

IF <car is sliding> {
  IF <countersteering>{
     <activate countersteer assist>}}

I think it's more like:

IF <car is sliding> {
     <reduce steering lock to 270>}}

 

[Eric.]

Jesus. Here we go.

Where's my popcorn...

Care to add something productive to the discussion?