Forza Motorsport 7: General Discussion

[SimTourist]

FH2 was released on both 360 and XB1, that doesn’t mean they are exactly the same games though.

It's a different situation now, the expectation is that it would have crossbuy/crossplay with the XB1/PC, as well as shared lobbies and community. That's MS' policy these days. These things weren't in place in 2014.

 

[ImaRobot]

It's a different situation now, the expectation is that it would have crossbuy/crossplay with the XB1/PC, as well as shared lobbies and community. That's MS' policy these days. These things weren't in place in 2014.

So it'll be like how I can play with original Xbox One players while I have the One X? I'm betting it's more likely that it'll be developed around the new console and dumbed down to work well enough on the base. Much like we already see with games with these split systems currently, but on a more significant downgrade for the base console.

 

[SimTourist]

So it'll be like how I can play with original Xbox One players while I have the One X? I'm betting it's more likely that it'll be developed around the new console and dumbed down to work well enough on the base. Much like we already see with games with these split systems currently, but on a more significant downgrade for the base console.

There are things that can't be easily downgraded, especially CPU and storage related stuff, say SX can handle 32+ cars on track but current gen can only handle 24 as in FM7, what do you do? Or SX users will load a race in couple seconds or less, but then have to wait 30+ seconds for Xone/XoneX users to catch up, what's the point then? It compromises the experience and shackles the potential of the new platform. Even if crossgen FM8 comes out this year, it's not gonna show the true advancements made possible by Zen cpu and SSD, then we have to wait another 2-3 years for a full fledged nextgen Forza that can stretch it's legs. They've already squeezed every last drop of power from Xone family after releasing 6 games for it, it doesn't have anything left to give. Might as well wait a bit and stick with FM7/FH4 for now and then get a true showstopper from T10/PG rather than a compromised halfstep entry.

 

[ImaRobot]

There are things that can't be easily downgraded, especially CPU and storage related stuff, say SX can handle 32+ cars on track but current gen can only handle 24 as in FM7, what do you do? Or SX users will load a race in couple seconds or less, but then have to wait 30+ seconds for Xone/XoneX users to catch up, what's the point then

So a game would not be able to be downgraded enough in order to hold eight more cars around a track at all? There’s absolutely nothing that can be done? Honest question really - because what do people do on PC racing games when they don’t have as powerful a PC to run a game in full grid? The game was developed with the intention of a full grid to be used, but I’m sure some people will find that they’d either have to lower some settings somewhere in order to get it working in a decent manner. That’s not something that’s achievable? Are PC games held back because of anticipation of the lowest specs?

as for SX compared to XBOX ONE load times - how much of that is an issue for crossplay games that have Xbox, PS4, and PC players playing all together? We’re already in a similar instance in that regard are we not? I cant say I’ve seen any outcry about it.

 

[SimTourist]

So a game would not be able to be downgraded enough in order to hold eight more cars around a track at all? There’s absolutely nothing that can be done? Honest question really - because what do people do on PC racing games when they don’t have as powerful a PC to run a game in full grid? The game was developed with the intention of a full grid to be used, but I’m sure some people will find that they’d either have to lower some settings somewhere in order to get it working in a decent manner. That’s not something that’s achievable? Are PC games held back because of anticipation of the lowest specs?

as for SX compared to XBOX ONE load times - how much of that is an issue for crossplay games that have Xbox, PS4, and PC players playing all together? We’re already in a similar instance in that regard are we not? I cant say I’ve seen any outcry about it.

Well, they could further downgrade the LoD for AI cars, but they already look pitiful on base Xbox One, the detail was already cut dramatically going from Forza 5 to 6 and then 7, at some point you reach a subpar result. Like I'm not arguing that it can't be done, hell you could probably port Forza 8 to OG Xbox if you really wanted, the question is the quality of the end result and the returns.
Xbox One, PS4 and PC so far have comparable HDD bandwidth, and players on PC with SSD installed are already familiar with being the first to load into a match and waiting for others with lower specs. Again it kills the point of upgrading in the first place, if everyone in a session has an SSD then games could start dramatically quicker. That's the point of nextgen hardware - bringing an experience that wasn't possible before due to hardware constraints. I don't know what the argument is at this point.

 

[ImaRobot]

Well, they could further downgrade the LoD for AI cars, but they already look pitiful on base Xbox One, the detail was already cut dramatically going from Forza 5 to 6 and then 7, at some point you reach a subpar result. Like I'm not arguing that it can't be done, hell you could probably port Forza 8 to OG Xbox if you really wanted, the question is the quality of the end result and the returns.
Xbox One, PS4 and PC so far have comparable HDD bandwidth, and players on PC with SSD installed are already familiar with being the first to load into a match and waiting for others with lower specs. Again it kills the point of upgrading in the first place, if everyone in a session has an SSD then games could start dramatically quicker. That's the point of nextgen hardware - bringing an experience that wasn't possible before due to hardware constraints. I don't know what the argument is at this point.

That were already living in a situation with vastly different machines that coexist with seemingly little issue and that the introduction of a new console isn’t changing much in that regard, and that I feel you’re basically blowing it out of proportion to push a point of view. There’s options that exist in current games that alleviate almost everything you’re talking about I feel, and you start out by acting like they don’t exist, and then back track to change that point.

In COD with cross play enabled I’m loading into the game at the tip top of the timer with the PC players almost 100% of the time with my One X. If I was a PC Player that didn’t want to wait an extra few seconds then I’d just disable that feature.

I get what you’re saying. I want a fresh new FM that isn’t held back as much as the next guy, but I don’t think the issue is as prominent as you’re pointing it out to be.

 

[SimTourist]

That were already living in a situation with vastly different machines that coexist with seemingly little issue and that the introduction of a new console isn’t changing much in that regard, and that I feel you’re basically blowing it out of proportion to push a point of view. There’s options that exist in current games that alleviate almost everything you’re talking about I feel, and you start out by acting like they don’t exist, and then back track to change that point.

In COD with cross play enabled I’m loading into the game at the tip top of the timer with the PC players almost 100% of the time with my One X. If I was a PC Player that didn’t want to wait an extra few seconds then I’d just disable that feature.

I get what you’re saying. I want a fresh new FM that isn’t held back as much as the next guy, but I don’t think the issue is as prominent as you’re pointing it out to be.

The differences weren't very dramatic this gen because the CPU power and storage speed were barely an upgrade over Xbox 360/PS3, this time around these components are the key advancements, while GPUs are a marginal upgrade over midgen consoles.

 

[turk1993]

The differences weren't very dramatic this gen because the CPU power and storage speed were barely an upgrade over Xbox 360/PS3, this time around these components are the key advancements, while GPUs are a marginal upgrade over midgen consoles.

The GPU of Series X is 2 times the TF of One X, but in reality its even more than that. Its RDNA 2.0 architecture so its roughly 50% to 75% more powerfull TF to TF when compared to the older GCN 2.0 based GPU that was in the One X. you can expect atleast 2.5 times the GPU power of One X so calling that marginal upgrade is a understatement. And the One X was the most powerfull console last gen and it only released 2017 wich is just 3 years ago. And add all the ROPs, bandwith, CU, SU's and ray tracing on top of that and its just on another league.

 

[SimTourist]

The GPU of Series X is 2 times the TF of One X, but in reality its even more than that. Its RDNA 2.0 architecture so its roughly 50% to 75% more powerfull TF to TF when compared to the older GCN 2.0 based GPU that was in the One X. you can expect atleast 2.5 times the GPU power of One X so calling that marginal upgrade is a understatement. And the One X was the most powerfull console last gen and it only released 2017 wich is just 3 years ago. And add all the ROPs, bandwith, CU, SU's and ray tracing on top of that and its just on another league.

Yeah yeah yeah, 2.5 times improvement is not what I would call a large gap. Most of it will be eaten by 4k/60fps and raytracing.

 

[Speedster911]

^^ Agreed. I'm not very hopeful that they'll use the additional power to finally use REAL sounds in games, or AI that behaves almost like people do. It's always been about graphics in the last few generations.

I'd be happy to squeeze mileage out of my One-X for the next few years. Losing interest in gaming already as it is.

 

[SimTourist]

I'm not very hopeful that they'll use the additional power to finally use REAL sounds in games, or AI that behaves almost like people do.

Well there is some potential there, XSX will have a dedicated audio chip that should take the burden off the CPU for starters, as far as AI they've said they're testing some machine learning tech to improve it. How well that pans out is anyone's guess at this point. They hyped Drivatar at the start of this gen and it's honestly one of the worst AI on the market and it never improved in 7 years. I'm cautiously optimistic because Zen 2 CPU is not a piece of **** like Jaguar was.

 

[strela]

or AI that behaves almost like people do.

You mean like players do in online racing? I would hate an AI that dive-bomb on the first turn or get angry after you pass it than ram you the next turn. An AI that will try to block you at any cost because desperately trying to secure the 12th position would be a nightmare. An AI that would cut corners and wallride when it's possible would make me scream. Not to mention occasionally AI that would drive in opposite direction or camping at the side of the track waiting for others trying to ruin the race.

It's always been about graphics in the last few generations.

Well it does make sense that the more powerful console will support better graphics. Wouldn't it be just sad if the graphics didn't change from the SNES era?

 

[Jezza819]

Well there is some potential there, XSX will have a dedicated audio chip that should take the burden off the CPU for starters, as far as AI they've said they're testing some machine learning tech to improve it. How well that pans out is anyone's guess at this point. They hyped Drivatar at the start of this gen and it's honestly one of the worst AI on the market and it never improved in 7 years. I'm cautiously optimistic because Zen 2 CPU is not a piece of **** like Jaguar was.

I think I'm at the point now where AI improvement is my number one "want" above everything else from FM8. Above graphics or audio or even balancing out classes with the proper cars. Graphics or audio can't ruin my race experience but AI behavior can.

You mean like players do in online racing? I would hate an AI that dive-bomb on the first turn or get angry after you pass it than ram you the next turn. An AI that will try to block you at any cost because desperately trying to secure the 12th position would be a nightmare. An AI that would cut corners and wallride when it's possible would make me scream. Not to mention occasionally AI that would drive in opposite direction or camping at the side of the track waiting for others trying to ruin the race.

No I wouldn't want those "real world" online behaviors brought over into the game but at the same time I would prefer not the have the AI PIT maneuver me off the track after I've made a clean pass. I would like to run a race in higher powered cars without have several AI cars at time running off track at the same place lap after lap. I would like to not have AI cars brake checking me at the same point on a track over and over again.

You don't have to be real world online AI but you should be in some world at least. There's no reason an AI should be this bad at version 7 of a game.

 

[SimTourist]

I think I'm at the point now where AI improvement is my number one "want" above everything else from FM8. Above graphics or audio or even balancing out classes with the proper cars. Graphics or audio can't ruin my race experience but AI behavior can.

What's funny is people claiming GT AI is crap, but actually they have good awareness of the player and try to avoid contact. Forza's is much more limited. This an old comparison but the situation is the same almost 10 years later.

 

[Jezza819]

What's funny is people claiming GT AI is crap, but actually they have good awareness of the player and try to avoid contact. Forza's is much more limited. This an old comparison but the situation is the same almost 10 years later.

That is a very good representation. That's why Forza's race starts are horrible too. Cars pile into the first corner and just keep hitting each other. Doing a .5 second roll off delay per car helps a little but it kind of takes away from the authentic feel of a race.

 

[strela]

No I wouldn't want those "real world" online behaviors brought over into the game but at the same time I would prefer not the have the AI PIT maneuver me off the track after I've made a clean pass. I would like to run a race in higher powered cars without have several AI cars at time running off track at the same place lap after lap. I would like to not have AI cars brake checking me at the same point on a track over and over again.

You don't have to be real world online AI but you should be in some world at least. There's no reason an AI should be this bad at version 7 of a game.

I completely agree. The AI need improvements. I also find annoying when the AI suddenly decelerate at some point without any reason. Like the beginning of some races at Le Mans or Daytona. And it's also annoying watching the AI leave the track at the same spot, like the Dulop curve at Suzuka. And of course the AI PIT maneuver after you pass the AI. Although sometimes I blame myself for the accident because it's likely that we also don't give enough space for the AI to complete the turn after the pass. However it needs improvements.
I mentioned online because there you can easily witness the worst behavior. But very similar episodes can be witnessed in real life racing too. What I want to say is I will love and I hope they improve the AI but not necessarily by make it more "human".

 

[Jezza819]

I completely agree. The AI need improvements. I also find annoying when the AI suddenly decelerate at some point without any reason. Like the beginning of some races at Le Mans or Daytona. And it's also annoying watching the AI leave the track at the same spot, like the Dulop curve at Suzuka. And of course the AI PIT maneuver after you pass the AI. Although sometimes I blame myself for the accident because it's likely that we also don't give enough space for the AI to complete the turn after the pass. However it needs improvements.
I mentioned online because there you can easily witness the worst behavior. But very similar episodes can be witnessed in real life racing too. What I want to say is I will love and I hope they improve the AI but not necessarily by make it more "human".

It's like the AI never knows your around them EXCEPT when you're right behind them. You can be 7 or 8 car lengths away and they approach a corner normally. But get within a couple of car lengths or so and it's tap, tap, tap. I ran a race Saturday night where it looked like the car in front of me was sending a morse code message.

But you're right about us being part to blame when an incident does happen because I know not to try and make a pass in a certain part of a track because of past experiences but I still try and force the issue because I think I had a good run at it and it might work one out of ten times.

Dunlop at Suzuka as you mentioned, the carousel at Road America, the tire barrier at turn 9 at COTA, almost lap after lap at least one AI is off there.

 

[ImaRobot]

What's funny is people claiming GT AI is crap, but actually they have good awareness of the player and try to avoid contact. Forza's is much more limited. This an old comparison but the situation is the same almost 10 years later.

They're both crap, they're just crap in a different spectrum. The good thing is that at least Forza's put up a decent lap to race against, even if Unbeatable is still easily lapped.

However, although I have ran into my fair share of issues, the usual complaints about Forza's AI seem to be not happening to me that often. A lot of the time it's not just the AI to blame, but the Driver as well like @strela noted.

 

[GregDrou]

It's like the AI never knows your around them EXCEPT when you're right behind them. You can be 7 or 8 car lengths away and they approach a corner normally. But get within a couple of car lengths or so and it's tap, tap, tap. I ran a race Saturday night where it looked like the car in front of me was sending a morse code message.

But you're right about us being part to blame when an incident does happen because I know not to try and make a pass in a certain part of a track because of past experiences but I still try and force the issue because I think I had a good run at it and it might work one out of ten times.

Dunlop at Suzuka as you mentioned, the carousel at Road America, the tire barrier at turn 9 at COTA, almost lap after lap at least one AI is off there.

AI always decelerates when I play at Rio

 

[GregDrou]

And Esaki had mentioned in a Forza Monthly that the AI would improve so it will hopefully be true.

 

[SimTourist]

They're both crap, they're just crap in a different spectrum. The good thing is that at least Forza's put up a decent lap to race against, even if Unbeatable is still easily lapped.

However, although I have ran into my fair share of issues, the usual complaints about Forza's AI seem to be not happening to me that often. A lot of the time it's not just the AI to blame, but the Driver as well like @strela noted.

Personally I feel that Codemasters has the best AI across their range of games, fairly quick but fair, and they put up a good fight, I always enjoy battling them. PCars is complete crap because the physics allow them to take you out easily and they will often spin you out, combined with no rewind it makes for a frustrating experience. GTS is alright, not very exciting but at least they don't make suicide moves and car bombing. Forza is crap because of constant pile ups, lack of awareness, and then the first driver is much faster than the rest of the pack. NFS is crap because the rubberbanding is very strong, so it always feels fake.

 

[strela]

Personally I feel that Codemasters has the best AI across their range of games, fairly quick but fair, and they put up a good fight, I always enjoy battling them.

This is kinda generic and really don't give us any idea. Are you saying that the IA behave the same in F1, Dirt and Grid? Because I'm quite sure it didn't last time I played those games.

PCars is complete crap because the physics allow them to take you out easily and they will often spin you out, combined with no rewind it makes for a frustrating experience.

And that makes me wonder. Is the AI in Grid so good because the cars are driving on rails? The effect is so strong you can literally wallride the AI! For the same reason you barely lose control if the AI try to spin you out.

GTS is alright, not very exciting but at least they don't make suicide moves and car bombing.

Suicide moves and car bombing? Have you played Wreckfest? GTS AI is boring. It can be smart as Einstein if it's not competitive what's the benefit?

NFS is crap because the rubberbanding is very strong, so it always feels fake.

Also too generic. You know how many studios made different NFS games? Are you talking about Ghost or SMS?

In the end. Are we talking about physics or AI? Or both?

 

[ImaRobot]

GTS is alright, not very exciting but at least they don't make suicide moves and car bombing.

That just sounds just as bad, in a different spectrum.

Forza is crap because of constant pile ups, lack of awareness, and then the first driver is much faster than the rest of the pack.

Eh, I really haven't seen it as constant as it's being portrayed here. I wonder if the difficulty settings one chooses might change the outcome here. The fast drivatar has always been a weird one though - I heard that was due to a glitch pulling from the next difficulty setting. On Unbeatable there's usually about 2-3 that are like that so I'm not sure about that since there's no next level to pull from - Even then, they really aren't that fast.

 

[SimTourist]

That just sounds just as bad, in a different spectrum.

It's not bad in a sense that they won't purposely ruin your race, so they aren't frustrating to me. And in general they seem to navigate tracks fairly well. Forza had a problem on Long Beach where they would crap out on the roundabout and slow down to a halt, pile up and have a hard time getting out. PCars had a similar problem on Monaco where they couldn't get past turn 1 even.
It needs improvement but it's not unplayable like Forza/Pcars often is.

Eh, I really haven't seen it as constant as it's being portrayed here. I wonder if the difficulty settings one chooses might change the outcome here. The fast drivatar has always been a weird one though - I heard that was due to a glitch pulling from the next difficulty setting. On Unbeatable there's usually about 2-3 that are like that so I'm not sure about that since there's no next level to pull from - Even then, they really aren't that fast.

It depends on the track, on some they're pretty slow, some they have a decent pace, and some I couldn't catch them. I remember having to adjust difficulty on different tracks because AI is inconsistent.
Obviously in the real world the first driver on the field has an advantage, but it's decided through qualifying results, which Forza doesn't have.

 

[Jezza819]

It's not bad in a sense that they won't purposely ruin your race, so they aren't frustrating to me. And in general they seem to navigate tracks fairly well. Forza had a problem on Long Beach where they would crap out on the roundabout and slow down to a halt, pile up and have a hard time getting out. PCars had a similar problem on Monaco where they couldn't get past turn 1 even.
It needs improvement but it's not unplayable like Forza/Pcars often is.

It depends on the track, on some they're pretty slow, some they have a decent pace, and some I couldn't catch them. I remember having to adjust difficulty on different tracks because AI is inconsistent.
Obviously in the real world the first driver on the field has an advantage, but it's decided through qualifying results, which Forza doesn't have.

AI in general across most games I've played have this unnatural braking ability and cornering ability that creates this dive bombing. I know Project Cars 2 was horrible when it first came out because at Daytona Road Course turn 1, The Kink at Road America, the end of the Mulsanne Straight at historic LeMans, you would get rear ended by the AI almost every single time. They worked on it through updates to where it's fairly decent now.

I still have a hard time accepting that Turn 10 looked at the finish product that is Forza 7 with the pileups you mentioned and the clueless AI behavior and said "yeah we're so proud of this game" Huh??

 

[ImaRobot]

It's not bad in a sense that they won't purposely ruin your race, so they aren't frustrating to me. And in general they seem to navigate tracks fairly well. Forza had a problem on Long Beach where they would crap out on the roundabout and slow down to a halt, pile up and have a hard time getting out. PCars had a similar problem on Monaco where they couldn't get past turn 1 even.
It needs improvement but it's not unplayable like Forza/Pcars often is.

They can't be frustrating if they're pretty much non existent in a race. In the opposite side, It's like saying that Forza AI isn't frustrating because vast majority of the time the AI is more than a lap behind me. I can still acknowledge it as an issue.

It depends on the track, on some they're pretty slow, some they have a decent pace, and some I couldn't catch them. I remember having to adjust difficulty on different tracks because AI is inconsistent.
Obviously in the real world the first driver on the field has an advantage, but it's decided through qualifying results, which Forza doesn't have.

I do notice that certain tracks will have them racing at different speeds. Catalunya is one track that has consistently faster AI than a lot of other tracks, but I'm betting that's because it's mostly long straights and the AI car's are specifically tailored towards speed for the most part, rather than handling. I'm betting that's also the majority of the issue's with the inconsistency - the AI always suck at twisty tracks because of the way the AI cars are built. That, and if you're a better/faster driver than them, they always try to match your pace which results in them flying off track too. I never have much issue with catching the AI, but I also don't do short races, usually medium or long, whichever is around 20~ minutes a race.

Qualifying results is a completely different subject than what we're on about so I'll just leave that one be - I'm neither here nor there for that.

AI in general across most games I've played have this unnatural braking ability and cornering ability that creates this dive bombing.

Not in Forza's case. If it's dive bombing, it's likely do to a lack of braking and cornering ability. What you're describing is pretty much the opposite of what you said.

I still have a hard time accepting that Turn 10 looked at the finish product that is Forza 7 with the pileups you mentioned and the clueless AI behavior and said "yeah we're so proud of this game" Huh??

Every single game known to man that has came out has some sort of glaring issue with AI. That's a question that you should ask every developer.

 

[Speedster911]

You mean like players do in online racing? I would hate an AI that dive-bomb on the first turn or get angry after you pass it than ram you the next turn. An AI that will try to block you at any cost because desperately trying to secure the 12th position would be a nightmare. An AI that would cut corners and wallride when it's possible would make me scream. Not to mention occasionally AI that would drive in opposite direction or camping at the side of the track waiting for others trying to ruin the race.

Well it does make sense that the more powerful console will support better graphics. Wouldn't it be just sad if the graphics didn't change from the SNES era?

No, like real race car drivers do on track with good racing ettiquete.

I meant, focus more on the other aspects like sound, physics and AI. They focus far too much on graphics. Graphics are outpacing the other aspects.

 

[MalibuClub]

Is there any way to start new save game / career without losing original one? PC.

E: No need anymore, forgot how bad the career was.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I tried out the new Forza Race Regulation in Class A yesterday, and I was instant blown away at how clean it was! There were some moments of take outs (like one or two here or there in one race), but other that, the lobby was pure clean racing.

It also helps that the bumper car physics is not a thing in Forza 7 anymore, so it made racing on track less terrifying. Just tap bumper to bumper, and no one goes flying off to space. Lol.

For their first time, I think T10 has done an outstanding job on FRR, and are currently in a great position to make online racing in FM8 exhilarating thanks to it. Now, if we only implement a match making system into the next game to make it competitive (and clean) for online racing. User-made online lobbies is also needed as well. 👍

 

[SlowGrayAudi]

Managed 83rd in the US and 176th in the world at Road Atlanta Full in the McLaren F1 GTR in class R900.

In rivals