Four Hours: The Nürburgring 4Hr Companion & Competition

[HaylRayzor]

I feel I should chime in about the horsepower limiter. I also dislike using it, and I never tune up just to limit down. That said, I did use it to lower the stock horsepower (no horsepower increasing mods) for my low hp runs. The reduction wasn't dramatic for 160hp but it's substantial for the 120hp run I'm planning. I intend to make the run regardless and I leave it up to you whether it's included here.

 

[W3H5]

I didn't complete the run because, to be honest, the March was well out of the race even on the 3rd lap I was over a minute behind the leaders so there was never going to be any race. I've really run out of idea on what to use for the next run. I'm not too fussed about trying to get on the leader board now, I just want a really close, fun race. I guess I could use the C 63 again and make it win this time.

 

[Lotrzyna]

If you're not doing it that way, and I was just too slow in my March, fill your boots. If you are doing it that way, I'm not sure I'd want to add it.

My both runs in F430 were done in tuned down car - especially second run was done in car with power limiter set at 50% :/ so I guess I will not appear as second best power/weight ratio result ?

 

[Michel4AGE]

I've tried about 8 cars so far to see which one could come close to my 415PP laptimes with only 410PP but it seems as if the more lower you go with the PP's on the same car, you not only get less power but also more understeer.

At least that's how I feel it with various cars.

I've also noticed that with upgraded suspension you do achieve higher cornerspeeds (obviously) but the tyres wear out quicker, especially the fronts.. yes also on a FR/MR. On some cars the difference is bigger compared to other cars. So far MR-cars feel the best at these PP's. At least..for me that is.

 

[bonobo4]

Can someone help me here? I don't know what to do. After trying and failing with my RUF, should I use a different car or try the RUF again, if so should I upgrade it? I don't want to use a car that will destroy the AI, but not one that will be too slow. I thought that the RUF would win easily (if the GT1 Turbo weren't there, as soon as I saw him I knew I'd lost). Ideally something Premium, but I can settle for Standard. Any help as I'm completely clueless as to what to do.

 

[Michel4AGE]

Do you want to drive against the Audi R8 LMS / S2000 GT1 Turbo ?
Do you want to drive against the CTR2 ?

What were your average laptimes with the RUF ?

On a hotlap with fresh tyres you should drive +/- 9:05 laptimes. Then you can win with low PP's, like 415-430PP. The slower you go, the more PP you'll probably need (more straight line power) to compensate (-the lack of your slow cornering speeds and/or lack of consistency).

But things like this are hard to tell without knowing exactly how you drive, your experience, laptimes etc. etc.

 

[bonobo4]

Well, my lap times for the first 2 hours of the race on a 4 Lap pit sequence:
9:12.339
8:58.023
9:03.590
9:20.415 (Pit-In)
9:44.832 (Pit-Out)
8:55.166
9:06.464
9:37.668 (Pit-In)
9:47.484 (Pit-Out)
9:06.295
9:10.981
9:38.449 (Pit-In)
9:56.581 (Pit-Out)

I can't comment on my driving style, but I can tell you I'd never tried that race before, so I chose a car I thought would win. I definitely don't want to race against the S2000 GT1 Turbo or the R8, but wouldn't mind going against another CTR2. I've noticed my times were averaging ~9:06, but I spent much time in the pits (I needed 66L to do 4 Laps, or 15.25L per lap ).

 

[Michel4AGE]

You have much difference in your fastest laptimes compared to your 2nd laptime after your pitstops. Do you find the CTR2 hard to drive ? You might want to try a easier car, also something that takes less time during pitstops. Pick something from the leaderboard list, that should work. Both the S2000 and the FT-86 are easy to drive, you might want to start with something like 450PP or maybe even higher and see how it goes for 1 stint. Just take it easy and don't push too hard. Go for consistency, not fastest laptimes. Also you should be able to drive 5 lap stints, maybe even 6 lap stints.

 

[GTsail]

Can someone help me here? I don't know what to do. After trying and failing with my RUF, should I use a different car or try the RUF again, if so should I upgrade it? I don't want to use a car that will destroy the AI, but not one that will be too slow. I thought that the RUF would win easily (if the GT1 Turbo weren't there, as soon as I saw him I knew I'd lost). Ideally something Premium, but I can settle for Standard. Any help as I'm completely clueless as to what to do.

Well, the RUF is certainly strong enough to win, though this depends upon what kind of upgrades or downgrades you've thrown at it. Though it does take some getting used to its handling.

For other possible Premium cars, I highly recommend the Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A FD '02 that can be purchased from the Mazda dealership. Its very flexible in regards to the PP value because you can increase or decrease the horsepower and weight depending upon how hard or easy you want to make the race and/or depending upon your skill level.

Good luck,
GTsail

 

[HaylRayzor]

The RX7, the Nissan Z, or the S2000 fall into that category. And throw in the Honda NSX, which is faster than both of those. The first 3 have "normal car" FR handling, and the NSX takes a bit different driving style. And of course the 111R...

There are so many cars that will win this event that it really comes down to learning the track and being smooth.

 

[Michelin]

Please say to me, if I go on to do this race on a Suzuki Cervo (the Premium one) tuned to the max... would I be considered crazy?

 

[bonobo4]

Please say to me, if I go on to do this race on a Suzuki Cervo (the Premium one) tuned to the max... would I be considered crazy?

If you win then no, but I reckon it'll be funny to watch!

Try using a Volvo 240 Estate fully upgraded with RS Tyres and a spoiler.

 

[Michelin]

If you win then no, but I reckon it'll be funny to watch!

Try using a Volvo 240 Estate fully upgraded with RS Tyres and a spoiler.

what about a Chevelle SS tuned to the max ?

 

[mechyboy27]

One of my friends bet me I couldn't win the 4 Hours of Nur in a BMW M3 without the engine packages.

Here's how my 4hrs of Nur is going. (In progress)

Car used: Mech Motorsports Venom GT (BMW M3 Coupe '07 with tuning)
Tuning: Tomorrow there will be a link to the tune
415HP
1342kg
515PP
Laps Completed: 27
Racing Mediums
Starting Order:
1. CTR2
2. G37
3. Fairlady Z Z-Tune
4. Stage II R32
5. S2000 GT1
6. Skyline GT-R R-tune
7. Venom GT
8. BNR34 Skyline
9. OPTION Stream Z
10. FT565 twin turbo Audi TT
11. 350Z
12. GRAN TURISMO SKYLINE GT-R

Lap 1: I fall back to 9th immediately because of how underpowered the car is. I knew the car would have power issues as I didn't want to directly touch the engine. So in training for this race, I made sure all time was gained in the turns. Into the first corner, I pass 5 cars, which puts me into 4th.

I then caught up to a group of cars who would stay together until the first set of stops: the Nismo Fairlady Z, the Ruf CTR2, and the Amuse S2000 GT1. I made quick work of the CTR and the S2000, and moved on to the Z. I knew I lacked the power to get by him on the high speed sections so to keep close, I stuck to the inside of the corners as much as I could. By the Karusell, I ducked down and passed him on the inside. I never got a lead above 5 seconds because he always caught and passed me on Dottinger Hohe.

Lap 4:
My first pit. I had a comfy lead over the Z at this time, but my tires weren't going to last another lap. So I made a plan to pit every 4 laps. Going in I went with no fuel. I knew it would get me out quick and back in the lead by lap 5. As it turns out, I was right, and by the Karusell, I was back in the lead after seeing the S2000 pass the Z for 2nd.

Lap 5:
Everybody except the S2000 and a couple others pit. I continued to lengthen the gap between us while it struggled to put in decent lap times.

Lap 6:
Fastest lap so far with a 8:48.773. Although I have some decent lap times in my opinion, I'm starting to wonder if the no fuel strategy was a good idea.

Lap 7:
Fuel's looking very dodgy. The next time in, I'm filling up to the max, and I'm gonna hate it. But I have to make it there first.

Lap 8:
Really scared now. Shouldn't have gambled. I ran out of fuel just as I got to the pits. Putting 100 gallons of fuel back in. Probably a good time for a bathroom break.

Lap 9: Came from a 1:25 lead to a 6 second lead in one stop. Next time, I'm adding at least 10 gallons to the car.

Lap 12: Tires are almost gone. I'm starting to slide off the track and the ensuing S2000 is catching me slowly. I still have a 36 second lead but this is my pit lap. 10 gallons of fuel and I come back out in 1st.

Lap 16:
I'm pretty sure this race is in the books. I'll update during every pitstop. 36 second lead over second.

Lap 27:
This is now my victory lap as second is 2:36 behind. I win!

 

[W3H5]

I'm sure the M3 can win this race. It's brilliantly fast around the 'Ring, even without modifications.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Speaking of brilliantly fast...

bonobo's effort in the CTR2 got me to thinking that the 3400S might be a great candidate in stock tune. Tonight I gave it a spin with sport soft tires. Brilliant car. I'm not quite fast enough on sport tires but I have room for improvement. I've been running race tires in my low hp efforts and switching to a car that weighs twice as much on harder tires takes me a bit of adjustment. My best lap was 9'12 and it was wearing the fronts rather fast so no stretching the stops. I could go with race rubber but that doesn't feel right on this car.

 

[bonobo4]

I'm not sure, but I think my main problem with the CTR2 was the enormous amount of fuel and pitting required. I had 6 pit stops, so immediately that's ~5 minutes gone from pitting alone. Not sure what good tyre and fuel economy is for a race like this, but it felt like I was using a lot of fuel in that race.

 

[bonobo4]

Okay, here goes my second attempt at this race.

Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR '08
RS Tyres
Stock, apart from FC Transmission
637BHP/1552KG
410.44BHP/tonne
587PP

Starting Grid

1. Mine's BNR34 Skyline GT-R N1 Base - C.Herrero
2. Skyline GT-R S-Tune (R32) - A.Coulon
3. Carbon R - M.Himmel
4. OPTION Stream Z - A.Mikkola
5. FT565 Twin Turbo Audi TT - W.Friedmann
6. Amemiya RX-7 - L.Heinonen
7. Me
8. S2000 - A.Middleton
9. AM Corvette - S.Suutari
10. Lancer Evo VI - L.Kramer
11. 350Z - T.Aubert
12. Amuse S2000 GT1 - M.Tran

Looks like relatively easy AI, apart from the S2000. The car has more power than my RUF, but also 200kg more, but slightly more BHP/tonne. Looking hopeful but who knows? I haven't yet tested Fuel/Tyre economy so fingers crossed! 👍

I'll just put in the Lap Times with the race order after every hour or so:

Lap 1 - 9:05.275
Lap 2 - 9:01.057
Lap 3 - 8:56.146

Okay, this is ridiculous. After just 3.5 Laps my rear tyres have exploded and lost all grip. After 4 Laps they are completely worn out and the car is intolerable. After a lap time of 11:37.233 after crawling and spinning from Mini-Karussel to the line I enter the pits to find that the car uses 71L of fuel every 4 Laps. This is insane; 17.75L per lap. Also, the tyres die way too fast meaning this car has to pit every 3 Laps or suffer a terrible 4th lap. Either I pit every 3 Laps and hope for the best due to outright speed (I'm around 10s a lap on average faster than the AI, but I have to pit every 3 Laps which is nearly twice as much as the AI and use 54L per stint), or I try and find a solution. Either way, race cancelled, since this is a joke as I'm 1:30 down just entering the pits. It's such a shame as the car is fun and easy to drive yet so fast as well.

 

[W3H5]

If the Viper can be controlled and the tyres managed then it should be in with a chance. Is the S2000 The Turbo? That makes a lot of difference.

What aides are you using? TCS on may deplete tyres quicker than with it off.

If it can pull laps around the 9 minute mark then there is no reason why it should not be competitive.

What's your driving style like? That can also affect tyre wear.

 

[bonobo4]

The S2000 wasn't the Turbo, I made sure to restart the race so I wouldn't get the R8 LMS or the GT1 Turbo.

I was using all Aids off, except ASM on and ABS on 1, with a Manual Transmission and a steering wheel. The Viper can easily do laps around 9 minutes (I went off by braking too late on the first corner on my 2nd and 3rd laps so it can do laps in less than 9 minutes quite easily), therefore it's easily competitive. It's just a shame about the fact it is easy to drive it but then it dies unexpectedly around the fourth lap or so. If I can win even by pitting every 3 Laps due to fast laps then I'd be very surprised.

Oh and I can't comment for driving style, but I'm not too aggressive but then again I wouldn't know. Those laps were clean apart from the fourth (obviously) and going off on the first corner on Laps 2 and 3 costing maybe 5-10s a lap.

 

[Michel4AGE]

Well I just lost my first 4hr race lol. I tried it with a 410PP FT-86, but the CTR2 took the win with just over 1 minute lead. I finished the race in 4hours 2minutes and 10 seconds, 2nd position in front of the GTR N1 and the S2000 GT1.

 

[GTsail]

Okay, here goes my second attempt at this race.

Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR '08
RS Tyres
Stock, apart from FC Transmission
637BHP/1552KG
410.44BHP/tonne
587PP
*snip*......

I'll just put in the Lap Times with the race order after every hour or so:

Lap 1 - 9:05.275
Lap 2 - 9:01.057
Lap 3 - 8:56.146

.........

Nice attempt with the Viper bonobo4!

Your lap times are fast enough, so with a little more practice you're going to win. Don't worry about having to abandon the race, we've all done it at one time or another, and it just gives you more experience driving different cars on the 'Ring!

I was using all Aids off, except ASM on and ABS on 1.....

You mention using ASM... Have you had this turned on for all your attempts? This might be affecting your tire wear, and is surely slowing you down. I would recommend that you turn this off and substitute TC @ 1 if necessary.

What other cars do you have that you might use for your next attempt?

Do you have any of the cars that the AI uses?

Both the High End Performance G37 and the Lexus ISF Racing Concept are great drives if you have them. Just de-tune them a little so you get a competitive race.

Good luck,
GTsail

 

[bonobo4]

Do you reckon my lap times are fast enough for me to win pitting for 51L and new tyres every 3 Laps?

I don't have any of the AI cars other than the RUF CTR2, but I suppose I could try the IS-F if the Viper turns out to be uncompetitive.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Buy an S2000 from the New Car Dealership and do some upgrades. I'll send you my tune if you like. This car is quick, easy to drive, easy on fuel, and easy on the tires.

And definately turn ASM off. That's killing you.

 

[C-ZETA]

Can I just ask something?

I can't check my PS3 at the moment to check it (duhh, I'm on holiday ) but if I remember correctly isn't the CT230R slightly down tuned as an AI in this race to bring it closer to the other cars? Because a stock one normally has at least 580hp, but the CT230R in the race gets just 520. It makes me wonder how it would do without the limits...I'd say the CTR2 would be long gone, but the S2000 GT1 Turbo would be out of reach (unless the better pit stop strategy of the CT230R will win over it). I'm wondering this because I'm thinking of driving the CT230R, completely stock on Sports Softs against the S2000. I'm still conscious of tire wear though because last time I had a test on the R8 Chrome Line on Sports Hards the tyres were down to halfway at the front going into the 4th lap. I was using TCS 2, Sensitivity 7, ABS 1 and that was it. Is there any 'correct' aids setup that helps tire wear? Although the CT230R has longer lasting tyres than the R8 I tried (theoretically), is lighter and also suffers from Uncanny Understeer. Even if I don't win, it'll still be a thrill to drive it (dat sound ) but I wanna know if I can win it. Remember, I use DS3. Thanks for all the help, C-ZETA.

 

[bonobo4]

Buy an S2000 from the New Car Dealership and do some upgrades. I'll send you my tune if you like. This car is quick, easy to drive, easy on fuel, and easy on the tires.

And definately turn ASM off. That's killing you.

I have tried driving without ASM, it is very difficult for me. But does it really use tyres up that fast?

 

[ItsHim]

I have tried driving without ASM, it is very difficult for me. But does it really use tyres up that fast?

Noone said it would be easy I can't comment on ASM, but on SS with TCS on 5 you'll get some understeer with the Viper thus you have to be easy on corner entry. Tyres should last 5 laps well within the 9:06 mark. Without any further aids than ABS on 1 I did a fastest lap of 8:54 and tyres were well. Just be gentle on the throttle and conservative.

So something went wrong with your tyres obviously.

I'd Second the ISF RM or ISF Racing Concept on RH tyres. Nice drive.

 

[GTsail]

I have tried driving without ASM, it is very difficult for me. But does it really use tyres up that fast?

I can't really comment on tire wear with the ASM on since I haven't driven any laps on the 'Ring with it turned on.

But its surely slowing you down.

So it is now the time to try driving without ASM. Some cars are much more difficult without ASM, so for your first attempt, I would recommend a car that has a wing. Do you have enough funds to buy anything from the new car dealer's?

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[bonobo4]

At the moment I have around 1 million I think.

Just trying in Practice with the Viper with no aids except ABS set to 1. Takes some getting used to but having a wheel helps.

Okay my first clean lap with the Viper without ASM was 9:12.202, which is 10s a lap slower than with ASM on. You said I'd be faster.

Just did a lap with ASM on and ABS 1 and although the lap was invalidated (I accidentally mildly cut the shicane at Adenauer Forst), I still did an 8:41.610 (in Practice with RS Tyres).


I've just had a thought though, what about the Tesla Roadster? It'd be good on fuel (being electric) and probably hopefully tyres as well. 463PP with 248BHP/1238KG, hopefully fast enough. Failing that, how about a hybrid like the Spoon CR-Z?

 

[mechyboy27]

At the moment I have around 1 million I think.

Just trying in Practice with the Viper with no aids except ABS set to 1. Takes some getting used to but having a wheel helps.

Okay my first clean lap with the Viper without ASM was 9:12.202, which is 10s a lap slower than with ASM on. You said I'd be faster.

Just did a lap with ASM on and ABS 1 and although the lap was invalidated (I accidentally mildly cut the shicane at Adenauer Forst), I still did an 8:41.610 (in Practice with RS Tyres).


I've just had a thought though, what about the Tesla Roadster? It'd be good on fuel (being electric) and probably hopefully tyres as well. 463PP with 248BHP/1238KG, hopefully fast enough. Failing that, how about a hybrid like the Spoon CR-Z?

Don't do the Tesla. Once it runs out, you can't refuell and you're stuck at 50mph for the race.