Free Quebec?

[Grand Prix]

What does everyone (Europeans and Americans, as well as Canadians) think of the Quebec situation? Should Quebec be granted national self determination, or should Canada remain united? Yes, I know that the Parti Quebecois now wants "sovereign unity", but is it okay for some Quebecois to demand total freedom? Or should they learn to accept the country's cultural differences?

I'll add my own opinions and thoughts on this later.

 

[Sage]

I’ve somehow missed the news on this (probably because of all the Katrina/Rita coverage) – so what exactly is going on? Why does Quebec want to separate? (Cultural, political…?)

 

[Grand Prix]

I’ve somehow missed the news on this (probably because of all the Katrina/Rita coverage) – so what exactly is going on? Why does Quebec want to separate? (Cultural, political…?)

Nothing new. Some Quebecois have wanted a free Quebec ever since the British defeated the French for the land of Canada.(Read: "Battle of the Plains of Abraham") I've only just thought of posting this recently.

 

[ledhed]

I dont know enough about it to have an opinion. I'll have to get back to you after I edumicate meself . 💡

 

[Sage]

Nothing new. […] I've only just thought of posting this recently.

Well, something interesting must be happening, because I’ve seen this topic at another forum today too… *Trots over to Google News*

 

[Ev0]

This whole thing has been going on for centuries, as stated before. Frankly, I think they would be foolish to separate from Canada. It's not too easy to create a new country, and Canada is doing pretty damn well, despite our numerous problems. That's the short version of my opinion on the matter.

 

[Grand Prix]

This whole thing has been going on for centuries, as stated before. Frankly, I think they would be foolish to separate from Canada. It's not too easy to create a new country, and Canada is doing pretty damn well, despite our numerous problems. That's the short version of my opinion on the matter.

Yes, I totally agree with that. But would you say the same on the principal of it? That's the question. A lot of people enjoy the film "Braveheart". Was it foolish for the Scotish to rebel against English rule? Yups, but you can say that it was justified.

 

[amp88]

Was it foolish for the Scotish to rebel against English rule? Yups

Why exactly was it foolish for the Scots to rebel against the English?

 

[Grand Prix]

Why exactly was it foolish for the Scots to rebel against the English?

First off, I mean no offense. I was saying that rebellions are often seen as foolish at first, like in the French, American, or Russian Revolutions for example. They start out small or "foolish" to the oppressor, but then they grow to be respectable and justified.

 

[amp88]

First off, I mean no offense. I was saying that rebellions are often seen as foolish at first, like in the French, American, or Russian Revolutions for example. They start out small or "foolish" to the oppressor, but then they grow to be respectable and justified.

Fair enough

It's just that I've seen Braveheart and those English didn't seem very nice.

(No, I'm not serious and no it's no laughing matter).

An interesting read for Scots and English alike is this though.

Sorry to have hijacked your thread, Grand Prix...to return to the original topic, I'd never heard of the situation in Quebec before this thread. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss...

 

[Grand Prix]

No problem.

 

[a6m5]

I heard or read about it in the 90's, but don't really hear about it much anymore. I'd be against it, because I don't want the complication, but like ledhed, I don't know much about it.

 

[Firebird]

First off, I mean no offense. I was saying that rebellions are often seen as foolish at first, like in the French, American, or Russian Revolutions for example. They start out small or "foolish" to the oppressor, but then they grow to be respectable and justified.

Key difference: Québecois aren't being oppressed.

The only problem between Québec and the rest of Canada is that there are now a couple generations' worth of Québecois who've been indoctrinated to believe that everyone else in their country is out to get them, and the only way to protect themselves is to separate.

Don't ask a separatist why this would help them, because they don't know.
Neither do Le Parti and Le Bloc.

Québec separation would be fanstastic spectacle. An awe-inspiring failure of magnificent proportion. I'd half-tempted to tell La Belle Province to try separation (true separation, not the half-assed ideas Parizeau and Bouchard had), just so I can watch it explode in their faces.

 

[Carl.]

Well, I think 99.9% of Americans and Europeans (besides France) don't know or care much about Quebec separatist movement.

Here's a brief historic summary of the origins of the separatist movement in Quebec, for those interested: Link

Personnaly, I'm being more and more fed up seeing all the energy and ressources lost up until now in this crusade for our "freedom", and I just wish that they'll give it a rest ASAP. When the separatists were elected for the first time in 1976, Montreal was as big and strong as Toronto, but it's now less than half of its size. While not being the only factor, the instability that arose with the separatist movement and the exodus that followed really didn't help our situation.

Yes, French Canadians have been oppressed in the past, both by english government and corporations (but equally so by our own religious authorities). The thing is that in the last century we overcame these issues and stood for our rights through democracy, so to me the victimization discourse still going on is now getting very tiresome, and disconnected with reality.

And while we're not doing bad for our size, I just don't see how being on our own, 7 millions (probably much less due to a massive exodus) surrounded by over 300 millions of english speaking people would give us more strength. Oh, yes, our sacrosanct cultural identity wouldn't be diluted... now what about reality? (e.g. economic strength)

Another point: as of now we had two referendums who failed... let's say the 304th referendums finally wins by 55% (can't see how it could get much higher than that), we'd be starting a new country that 45% of the population just doesn't want it... way to go!! 💡 (elsewhere).


But let's just forget about these petty issues, and let our emotions speak... Vive le Québec libre!!!


Edit: Oh, by the way, congratulations on the "NUKE THE FRENCH!" entry. Free french bashing has always been a remarkable demonstration of very good taste and judgement, very well thought. 👍 (even more given the violent nature of the sentence, really, hats off to you sir.)

 

[Carl.]

Key difference: Québecois aren't being oppressed.

The only problem between Québec and the rest of Canada is that there are now a couple generations' worth of Québecois who've been indoctrinated to believe that everyone else in their country is out to get them, and the only way to protect themselves is to separate.

Don't ask a separatist why this would help them, because they don't know.
Neither do Le Parti and Le Bloc.

Québec separation would be fanstastic spectacle. An awe-inspiring failure of magnificent proportion. I'd half-tempted to tell La Belle Province to try separation (true separation, not the half-assed ideas Parizeau and Bouchard had), just so I can watch it explode in their faces.

While i don't share your wishes, like many others, I'd probably go live elsewhere if that was to happen. I'd love to live close from the rockies.

 

[Firebird]

Edit: Oh, by the way, congratulations on the "NUKE THE FRENCH!" entry. Free french bashing has always been a remarkable demonstration of very good taste and judgement, very well thought. 👍 (even more given the violent nature of the sentence, really, hats off to you sir.)

Random insults directed toward the French seems to me to be the extent of Québec's oppression.

I've never quite understood the (mostly U.S.) contempt for the French and other francophones.

 

[Grand Prix]

Random insults directed toward the French seems to me to be the extent of Québec's oppression.

I've never quite understood the (mostly U.S.) contempt for the French and other francophones.

Me neighter. I thought I'd put that poll option in for comedic satire effect, along with "I like Grapes".

Very well said jpmontoya. A independent Quebec would be certainly poor financially indeed. Not to mention it would completely alienate the Atlantic provinces from the rest of the country. French Canadians have played a huge role for Canada in the past century. Anybody that says they're still being "oppressed" needs to wake up and get their head checked. (Like me )

 

[Carl.]

Random insults directed toward the French seems to me to be the extent of Québec's oppression.

I've never quite understood the (mostly U.S.) contempt for the French and other francophones.

Me neither. I mean, French can be arrogant at times (even many of us French Canadians have a few common used expressions which are not too friendly towards them), but this is way out of proportion, There's poking for fun, but that often seems not to be the case when speaking of the French.


@Grand Prix:

Well, perhaps I over-reacted to this, or lost my sense of humour on that subject after having an overdose of French-bashing, OReily style...


I'm tempted to put NUKE THE AMERICANS in my sig, just as a little experiment...

On second thougths, I think I'll pass.

 

[-Fred-]

The only problem between Québec and the rest of Canada is that there are now a couple generations' worth of Québecois who've been indoctrinated to believe that everyone else in their country is out to get them, and the only way to protect themselves is to separate.

They used to tell us that in history classes, at school... Not just indoctrinated, alienated too. It never made any sense, and never will. It's always been an half-assed effort, and I just wish the few irreductible fans will one day wake up and smell the coffee.








And besides, what would we do with the Habs?

 

[ledhed]

Me neither. I mean, French can be arrogant at times (even many of us French Canadians have a few common used expressions which are not too friendly towards them), but this is way out of proportion, There's poking for fun, but that often seems not to be the case when speaking of the French.


@Grand Prix:

Well, perhaps I over-reacted to this, or lost my sense of humour on that subject after having an overdose of French-bashing, OReily style...


I'm tempted to put NUKE THE AMERICANS in my sig, just as a little experiment...

On second thougths, I think I'll pass.

Our nukes are BIGGER than your nukes !

I saw the option " Nuke France" and without even having to think selected that option... Although I was just thinking about placing them in my micro wave and not actually firing nukes at them at the time .

 

[sukerkin]

It seems that in these days of liberalism and freedom (mmm ... I may be living in a world of my own making there ) it has become fashionable for absolutely everyone who isn't White and English Speaking to play the 'race card' at every opportunity.

It was never a viable option for winning an argument even when used by those that had a genuine case and now it's become Political Correctness run wild.

As an Englishman, Frenchie Bashing is my God Given Right (as it is the right of the Frogs to 'diss us "Ros' Beefs") but it is just humour. Racial stereotyping is a time honoured way of pointing out the differences between cultural identities and is the source of much comedy (often aimed at reducing fear of another group). It can be cruel and thoughtless, this is true and I have to say that (other than the aformentioned French-mocking ) it is often not all that funny.

Mind you, I do think that jp had a point when he alluded to the fact that the dislike of the French seemed to be more global and have more vitriol in it than for others. I know he thought better of it later and decided he'd had a sense-of-humour failure but that comment made me think for a moment, as I'd voted "Nuke the French" without even the tiniest hint of hesitation. If you repeat the stereotype often enough it does become all too real and "The FRENCH" replaces French People in your mind ... that's not a good thing I feel.

Anyhow, enough thread-hijack {except to thank amp88 for that link - fascinating reading, sir 👍}. What I actually was going to say before I side-tracked myself is that I agree with those who have said that creating a seperate country of Quebec would be a not-very-clever thing to do. The breakdown of larger countries into smaller entities is a reversal of the trend of the past thousand years and is a retro-grade step. In the end it will only lead to more conflict as, with the fragmentation of groups, there come to be very many more Them's for the "Them and Us" extremists to work on.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Fair enough

It's just that I've seen Braveheart and those English didn't seem very nice.

Well, you can't really compare Canada's relationship with its francophone population to the British and their relationship with the Scots. There is no oppression going on up here in the great white north; quite the opposite, in fact. Canada has done a lot to ensure the survival of the French culture and language, making the entire country bilingual. We all recognize the importance of both our official languages, and French class is mandatory until at least Grade 9 here for all anglophone students.

In addition, Quebec itself is in no danger of having either its culture and language or its way of life disappear and be replaced by English. In fact, it is quite difficult for anglophones living in the province of Quebec to be educated in English. During the last few decades, a lot of work has been done by the Quebec provincial government to purge the province of as much of the anglophone culture as possible. Due to some radical and charismatic political leaders, the Quebecois people have been brought together to rally against the destruction of their lifestyle. They have been to the polls to vote on seperation, but have never received a majority vote on the matter. The last referendum was extremely close, with 51% of voters opting to remain a part of Canada. If I recall correctly, Quebec wanted to separate and be its own country, but still retain Canadian currency and other properties of the rest of the country.

I can't speak for all Canadians, but I don't want to see Quebec separate. I want Canada to remain a country as it is now, and I really wish that those anglophones who hate the French and those francophones who hate the English simply based on such a small difference as language would all gather themselves way up north, maybe on Manitoulin Island, and we could make that a seperate country. We could call it Hatersville or something like that. Anyway, having been born in Quebec and now living in Ontario, I've seen both sides of the dispute, and I can say it's all stupidity of you ask me. Canadians should all welcome as many different cultures as possible. If we can tolerate the thousands of immigrants from India, Pakistan, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Middle East as we do now, there should really be no problem tolerating a culture that has existed in Canada since the country's inception.

 

[Carl.]

In addition, Quebec itself is in no danger of having either its culture and language or its way of life disappear and be replaced by English. In fact, it is quite difficult for anglophones living in the province of Quebec to be educated in English. During the last few decades, a lot of work has been done by the Quebec provincial government to purge the province of as much of the anglophone culture as possible. Due to some radical and charismatic political leaders, the Quebecois people have been brought together to rally against the destruction of their lifestyle.

Well, demographically, the proportion of French has declined for a while in the Province, so we could end up as a minority in a distant future, it's just that no (sane) artificial government regulation will change a natural trend like that.

A nice example of how stupid it can be is with immigration. In their brilliand minds, they decided that immigrants who don't speak French or English are required to follow French classes... and in the end, a lot of them end up having a lot of trouble finding a job, since the vast majority of employers in the market require their employees to be bilingual.

 

[Anderton Prime]

A nice example of how stupid it can be is with immigration. In their brilliand minds, they decided that immigrants who don't speak French or English are required to follow French classes... and in the end, a lot of them end up having a lot of trouble finding a job, since the vast majority of employers in the market require their employees to be bilingual.

Yes I remember reading about that. I suppose the ultimate goal is to "win" more people over to "their" side (meaning francophone), but the unfortunate side effect is that they are basically destroying these immigrants' abilities to find jobs later on. I'm not sure what the solution is, though.

 

[TwinTurboJay]

Other considerations would have to be the logistics of such a seperation. Eastern Canadian manufacurers would be burdened with higher shipping costs and would lose their competitive edge on western manufacturers. Shipping products to the East coast could easily get taxaed travelling through another 'country' which is what Quebec would have to do for generating some revenue, and guranteed if they were looking to separate, they would be looking for funing from the Canadian Government. The provincial government of Quebec uses federal funds for the Preservation of their french history, historical buildings, things of this nature. What are their plans in the future? How are they planning to run the province on the meager exports they currently have?

 

[Anderton Prime]

It is a pickle, no doubt about it.

 

[ledhed]

Why is it this question seems to flare up in cycles like it does ? I seem to remember a vote being taken , I am not sure if it was a referendum or not but it addressed the seperatist issue. can someone tell me what I think I remember ?

 

[Carl.]

Why is it this question seems to flare up in cycles like it does ? I seem to remember a vote being taken , I am not sure if it was a referendum or not but it addressed the seperatist issue. can someone tell me what I think I remember ?

There has been two referendums, one in 1980 and another in 1995, after a failed attempt at amending the constitution.

Unfortunately, since the last one was very close, they're not giving up the idea of starting the same process over again...

 

[TheCracker]

I thought the British press was pretty good at reporting major international news, especially from the 'Commonwealth' - but this whole 'independent Quebec' thing is new to me!

I can't see how it could ever be a good thing to split the country, further bureaucracy is never a good thing.

 

[Slicks]

Quite simply, I don't want to see Quebec separate.
There is no good that could come of it, except a few happy extremists. They would be financially screwed, and would have to import almost everything from Canada or other countries. There is quite simply no way that they could survive, let alone keep the standards that are there. If they were to charge massive shipping charges/taxes, then we would find another way around.
The rest of Canada would also be losing a great deal of history and culture.