FWD Sports Car?

[YSSMAN]

That being said, I think there are FWD cars that fit that criteria.

Hell, I'd say you (currently) own one of the most outstanding examples in favor of the argument.

 

[JCE]

Hell, I'd say you (currently) own one of the most outstanding examples in favor of the argument.

Which is what?

 

[homeforsummer]

It's also quite a surprisingly small car - it's only just a foot and a half longer than the MX-5 and itself will fit inside just the wheelbase of an F-350 Super Duty. So it fits small, DHC/FHC, 2 seat of 2+2 and designed for naught but fun - and the small-engined part just gets grandfathered in.

I can't remember whether you considered the 911 to be a sports car but I'd say the above reason is very much a part of why I consider the 911 to be a sports car too. It's very compact, even the current versions (I'm always amazed by how small they look), and if you follow the line back you find progressively smaller, more lithe and lighter cars. I'm very much an advocate for the 911 being a sports car even if the later models err closer to the "GT" tag. It's still light and it's still small. And turbo/GT3 models aside, it's not even especially powerful when you consider how many super saloons will blow it away in a straight line.

so funny! Thanks guys!

Apparently you have no point strong enough to argue your own case if you can make comments like this...

Which is what?

An Integra DC5 I'd presume. Not a sports car in my eyes, but a very impressive sporty coupe.

 

[YSSMAN]

Which is what?

HFS got it. An Acura RSX. I'd say that and the ST231 Celica fit the bill very well.

 

[JCE]

Well using that logic the Prelude is also a Sports car. And I do very much think the RSX and (5th gen) Prelude are sports cars.

 

[Eric.]

I don't think the sports car definition that Famine is using should include an engine specification. Particularly when we are basing it on <2L engines but then there are 7L and 8.3L cars included too.


And I looked to see what insurance companies consider to be sports cars, here's a result from WikiAnswers:

* I think it all depends on the company. For instance, I drive a '94 T-Bird. Some companies say it's a sports car (with the V6? Yeah right), some luxury (almost passes as that), and some just as a plain old car.

* I asked my insurance agent this very question. It depends how on the replacement cost of the auto and location.

* They usually go by horsepower, stock and aftermarket modifications (i.e. turbo or superchargers), etc. They will usually know if you have a sportscar or not. You can also have a car classified as rare or collectable that you think might be a sportscar.

* A key point here is TWO DOORS. If a car has two doors its almost always classified as a sports car no matter what. Also if the car is equipped with a manual transmission its also most likely a sports car.

* I have a Firebird, 2 doors, manual and it's still not considered a sports car.

* I have a 2 door 2004 Dodge Stratus SXT that is only a 4-cylinder but rated a 19 which is a sports car rating with high premiums.


Edit: And this here seems to be a one page summary of this entire thread, short of the whole FWD thing.

http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/57052/performance_cars/definition_of_a_sports_car.html

 

[Azuremen]

so funny! Thanks guys!

Just stop and leave. You've contributed nothing useful what so ever in just about every post you've made in this thread.

The Viper's a riddle wrapped in a conundrum inside an enema.

Did I catch a typo from the great Famine? Because I find this a slightly bizarre usage of the word, even for a brit...

 

[Famine]

Nope. Typed as intended (and an adaptation of two different quotes)

Eric, I feel the small-engined part is important but you'll note that the huge-engined versions are "inspired by" older, smaller engined versions - the C6 Corvette by the C1-C3 Corvette and the Viper by the Cobra/Ace. By design these things are sportscars and the huge engine doesn't detract from that - in the same way that a Focus with 300hp is still a hot hatchback.


* Winston Churchill: "[it] is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma"
Sgt. Fred Colon, Ankh-Morpork Night Watch: "I hear it's a misery wrapped in an enema"

 

[Duke of Pendle]

This thread could be a hundred pages long, and there would still be no conclusion.
"Sports Car" is a perception thing.
My perception of a sports car is quite traditional - E-Type (fhc and roadster) Triumph TR's, etc.
The FWD Lotus thingy would also fit my perception of a sports car.

Porsche 911 - Sports car, or Grand Tourer?

There's another question; when does a Sports car become a Grand Tourer, or are they the same thing?

 

[Jonn 79]

I'm surprised that after 23 pages nobody has agreed to just lock the thread as no new arguments have shed any further light on the topic.

 

[Stotty]

The Porsche 911 is a sportcar, but it will also do the GT role.

And some models should not really be considered suitable for GT work - the GT3/RS for example will cover long distances, but they aren't exactly relaxing to drive.

 

[Duke of Pendle]

I guess it hasn't been locked because there have been some very valid discussions on the subject.
The thing is - no-one is actually wrong 👍

 

[Famine]

I'm surprised that after 23 pages nobody has agreed to just lock the thread as no new arguments have shed any further light on the topic.

It's not the destination, but the journey.

Pretty much like sportscars.

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't think the sports car definition that Famine is using should include an engine specification. Particularly when we are basing it on <2L engines but then there are 7L and 8.3L cars included too.


And I looked to see what insurance companies consider to be sports cars, here's a result from WikiAnswers:

* I think it all depends on the company. For instance, I drive a '94 T-Bird. Some companies say it's a sports car (with the V6? Yeah right), some luxury (almost passes as that), and some just as a plain old car.

* I asked my insurance agent this very question. It depends how on the replacement cost of the auto and location.

* They usually go by horsepower, stock and aftermarket modifications (i.e. turbo or superchargers), etc. They will usually know if you have a sportscar or not. You can also have a car classified as rare or collectable that you think might be a sportscar.

* A key point here is TWO DOORS. If a car has two doors its almost always classified as a sports car no matter what. Also if the car is equipped with a manual transmission its also most likely a sports car.

* I have a Firebird, 2 doors, manual and it's still not considered a sports car.

* I have a 2 door 2004 Dodge Stratus SXT that is only a 4-cylinder but rated a 19 which is a sports car rating with high premiums.


Edit: And this here seems to be a one page summary of this entire thread, short of the whole FWD thing.

http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/57052/performance_cars/definition_of_a_sports_car.html

To me those quotes sound like a confusion of terms. To me, they sound like people comparing insurance on cars that are considered "performance cars" rather than sports cars.

To put some perspective on this, it costs me very little to insure my MX5. Only about £50 more a year than it would have to continue insuring my old Fiesta. It's insured fully comprehensive, so theoretically everything is covered in an accident/theft/whatever. It's an old car with virtually no safety and security features. And I'm sure some people put them backwards through hedges occasionally.

Yet another car I could have got for similar money was a VW Bora(/Jetta) V5. It has airbags galore, all sorts of security features, a roof that can't be knifed open, and is likely to be driven more sedately. However, it would have cost me £200 more a year to insure than the Mazda. You can bet any money that's because it's quicker, and has a "V5" badge on it's bootlid, which for reasons good or otherwise, is like a red rag to a bull as far as insurance companies are concerned.

Insurance companies aren't necessarily adverse to sports cars and certainly aren't the best place from which to extract your definitions. They care about performance probably more than anything else, followed by your own history, location and likely use.

 

[niky]

Insurance companies will cast as broad a net as possible under the term "sports car", as it allows them to charge higher premiums.

In fact... their definitions are all in-house, since no government regulatory body actually recognizes the classification... so they also need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[homeforsummer]

Insurance companies will cast as broad a net as possible under the term "sports car", as it allows them to charge higher premiums.

Exactly. Anything with even slightly raised performance from standard or the gall to put a "sporty" badge on the back will be classed as a sports car, like the aforementioned curiously-expensive-to-insure Bora.

 

[eight6er]

So the MX-5 isn't high-powered or long. I guess that dictionary says the MX-5 isn't a sportscar then?[/color]

The dictionary also said 1920 was when the definition was made, so back then the mx-5 might have passed as high powered....

Here's two more from different dictionarys.

• noun a low-built car designed for performance at high speeds.

Main Entry: sports car
Function: noun
Date: 1928

: a low small usually 2-passenger automobile designed for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high-speed driving

Even the dictionarys don't have the same answers to what a sports car is.

 

[Famine]

There seems little purpose in posting 80-90 year old dictionary definitions. It certainly doesn't advance the discussion much to ask the advice of someone whose automotive knowledge has no concept of fuel injection, disc brakes, radial tyres or anti-lock braking systems...

 

[Duke of Pendle]

And there is the crux, I think
The term "Sports Car" was first coined back in those days.
I suppose the boundaries are blurred in modern times.

 

[eight6er]

There seems little purpose in posting 80-90 year old dictionary definitions. It certainly doesn't advance the discussion much to ask the advice of someone whose automotive knowledge has no concept of fuel injection, disc brakes, radial tyres or anti-lock braking systems...

Well the 80-90 year old definitions have not changed since then, it is still the same definitions found in dictionaries now. I think it has a lot to do with what is being discussed, as you have your own definition of what a sports car is and so does everyone else, something you can't seem to except.

 

[Famine]

And there is the crux, I think
The term "Sports Car" was first coined back in those days.
I suppose the boundaries are blurred in modern times.

Most car body-type definitions date back even earlier - in fact to horse-drawn carriages!

Well the 80-90 year old definitions have not changed since then, it is still the same definitions found in dictionaries now.

That's pretty much the definition of the word "definition". It may still be found but it has been superceded.

I think it has a lot to do with what is being discussed, as you have your own definition of what a sports car is and so does everyone else, something you can't seem to except.

That would be "accept" and if I couldn't accept other people's definitions why would I keep this discussion thread going and asking people to qualify their own definitions as I have done for mine?

Ultimately, everyone on Earth agrees that the Mazda MX-5 is a sportscar. If you come up with any definition of "sportscar" which would exclude the Mazda MX-5, that definition is wrong.

 

[homeforsummer]

&#8226; noun a low-built car designed for performance at high speeds.

Main Entry: sports car
Function: noun
Date: 1928

: a low small usually 2-passenger automobile designed for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high-speed driving

I give you, a sports car from 1928:

Austin 7 Ulster. All of 749cc and 24bhp. 0-60... no. Well, maybe eventually, as 60mph is its absolute top speed.

Meets the traditional definition pretty well though. Apart from "high speed", even back then. Still more of a "sports car" than any hot hatch or sports saloon though.

 

[eight6er]

Most car body-type definitions date back even earlier - in fact to horse-drawn carriages!



That's pretty much the definition of the word "definition". It may still be found but it has been superceded.



That would be "accept" and if I couldn't accept other people's definitions why would I keep this discussion thread going and asking people to qualify their own definitions as I have done for mine?

Ultimately, everyone on Earth agrees that the Mazda MX-5 is a sportscar. If you come up with any definition of "sportscar" which would exclude the Mazda MX-5, that definition is wrong.

I have not read through the whole thread, but when I came along it looked like you were jumping on any post, that did not agree with your definition, and I thought you came across rather agressive. I realise I may have misjudged the tone of your posts.
I would agree that any definition that would exclude the mx-5 should be wrong, but also any definition that would exclude cars because of engine size, or performance should also be wrong.

 

[Famine]

I have not read through the whole thread, but when I came along it looked like you were jumping on any post, that did not agree with your definition, and I thought you came across rather agressive. I realise I may have misjudged the tone of your posts.

Probably not. I like people to back up their opinions. I dislike it when people chuck in a throwaway comment that shows little understanding or thought.

I would agree that any definition that would exclude the mx-5 should be wrong, but also any definition that would exclude cars because of engine size, or performance should also be wrong.

Well, we've established that performance is completely irrelevant and, though "small"-engined (define "small") cars are preferable for the definition, there's no reason you can't have an 8.3 litre V10 sportscar.

 

[Tornado]

^ Er, Z32?

 

[Dotini]

Having driven them back in the day, the 1275 cc Mini-Cooper S in my mind qualifies as a true sports car, far better in fact than such trucks as the contemporary Austin-Healey 3000.

 

[Bones Brigade]

I am glad that this conversation can now be continued.

Wheres my beer?

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

To me, BMW's like 1-series (3-door hatch, coupe) and 3-series (E36 318ti etc) are sportscars. I also include Honda's like CRX and Del Sol as sportscars as they're light, nimble and fun to drive, and not too practical. Also, sportscar should be all about good/excellent handling at relatively speeds (~60mph+) as well as feedback of the car to the driver. No nannies or paddle shifters.. just the unaltered adrenaline rush.

Just my 0.02 cents.

 

[Eric.]

Ultimately, everyone on Earth agrees that the Mazda MX-5 is a sportscar. If you come up with any definition of "sportscar" which would exclude the Mazda MX-5, that definition is wrong.

. No nannies or paddle shifters.. just the unaltered adrenaline rush.

Just my 0.02 cents.

New MX-5s have traction and stability control and can be had with an automatic paddle shift option.

Thus, by Famine's ruling, you're wrong!

 

[McLaren]

To me, BMW's like 1-series (3-door hatch, coupe) and 3-series (E36 318ti etc) are sportscars. I also include Honda's like CRX and Del Sol as sportscars as they're light, nimble and fun to drive, and not too practical. Also, sportscar should be all about good/excellent handling at relatively speeds (~60mph+) as well as feedback of the car to the driver. No nannies or paddle shifters.. just the unaltered adrenaline rush.

Just my 0.02 cents.

A 318, CRX, & Del Sol as sports cars? Seriously?