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👍 to the guys doing the testing
General suspension balance - have we been fooled?
- Thread starter Ske
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Did some twiddling with shocks on a R34 skyline nür (stock VCD and LSD), and I found that dampers ("original" susp) seem to behave "properly". That is, lowering the front dampers by a fair amount (2/7) would make the car looser, especially on power-on/exiting. For some reason, this car seems already pretty loose, but when I set the shocks like that (spring rates 9/9), It would start behaving almost like a loose FR. I got plenty of lift-off, braking and power oversteer (from a 4wd), and I could do decent countersteering drifts (zero counter was very hard, like on a FR the angle would just get higher until I spun, unless I was VERY carefull with the gas). The front wheels seemed to have a lot more grip than the rears, though I'm not 100% sure how the game handles the Skyline's 4WD system.
To be honest, I didn't think the R34 would behave like this at all after driving them stock on S tires... so I gotta try some more. However, it seems like loose front dampers will cause the car to move from under to oversteer. I'll do some testing with cars that accept the 'original' suspension mod, just to keep bound/rebound out of it for now.
To be honest, I didn't think the R34 would behave like this at all after driving them stock on S tires... so I gotta try some more. However, it seems like loose front dampers will cause the car to move from under to oversteer. I'll do some testing with cars that accept the 'original' suspension mod, just to keep bound/rebound out of it for now.
niky
I couldnt of said it better my self.
FF & FR is usually F/R Stiff/Soft
AWD I usually go Stiff/Soft, BUT the Diference between the 2 is alot less
MR I go both directions depending on the car and how far to the Mid of the vehicle the engine is, the further to the rear the stiffer the rear end gets (but sometimes still slightly softer then the rear)
- 1,418
I think some basic rules need to be followed in regards to what suspensions you fit to your car.
On a road car without roll cage and downforce I only ever fit semi-race suspension.
I will only fit the full race suspension on a road car with roll cage and downforce fitted.
It appears to me that a standard car's chassis deforms when fitted with a full race suspension without the roll cage fitted which then upsets all the other settings.
Tires also seem to change the balance as well.
Also to confuse things some cars seem to be good with settings based from GT3 (Lotus Elise is really good) but others (Mazda MX5) seem to require a complete rethink from GT3 tuning to get decent results.
On a road car without roll cage and downforce I only ever fit semi-race suspension.
I will only fit the full race suspension on a road car with roll cage and downforce fitted.
It appears to me that a standard car's chassis deforms when fitted with a full race suspension without the roll cage fitted which then upsets all the other settings.
Tires also seem to change the balance as well.
Also to confuse things some cars seem to be good with settings based from GT3 (Lotus Elise is really good) but others (Mazda MX5) seem to require a complete rethink from GT3 tuning to get decent results.
Small_Fryz
Yup the underligned is corect. Mostly for FF & FR aplications.
Damper does the same as in real life It effects the speed of the weight transfer (Not the amount of weight) and helps keep her planted if you hit bumps or the curb, especially when landing from big air.
lowering her directly efects the amount of weight transfer (Reducing it) By lowering the cars center of gravity.
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Small_Fryz
Well, it wasn't me that revived this thread, my conscience is clear
I've done some more fiddling and I hate to say that dampers are still a mystery to me.. They seem to almost only affect lateral weight transfer in some cars, while others get significantly looser with my "standard" 7/3 bound, 8/4 rebound settings.
Some weird examples include the RUF BTR which seems to love 7/7 bound, 6/6 rebound more than anything.. and the Z-tune fairlady which seems to enjoy 6/6, 8/3. The RUF was pretty neutral when I started, but those settings seemed to get rid of some on-power understeer. The front end of the Z seemed to become more responsive with those settings (at least relative to the rear), but I have no idea which part made that happen.
Again I only tune for feel and not lap times, since I drift more than I grip.
Another interesting experiment is this: I got an M3 CSL with no mods except racing suspension, and tried to mess it up to understand what did what. I failed. No matter what I did to that car, springs or dampers, it was perfectly neutral. The only time I THINK I noticed it holding the inside line better was with 5/2, 2/5 dampers.. but the difference was so slight, it could have been placebo.
Anyway, this isn't over so if anyone feels like they have something to add, please do. I do feel like the spring rate issue has been solved, spring rate tuning may make loads of difference on some cars and almost none on others, but I've never felt that the opposite of what I found earlier has helped.
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- Fort Riley
- KW_Variant2_DB8
First of I just want to say great effort to the guys who are really trying to figure this stuff out. 👍
I did a littlke test with my stock '95 Eclipse. It only has racing suspension and TCS is at 1. The bound is 6/6 and rebound is 8/8, ride height is 110 f/r.
Theses are the spring rates i tried, all test were with b-spec on laguna seca on setting 3. IBob did 3 laps with each spring rate and i recorded the best lap time.
6.5/6.5 1'50.669
7/10 1'50.923
10/7 1'50.667
it's pretty close all around, don't know if this helps, just trying to see if there was something I could bring to the table.
I did test the car out with those settings manually as well, nd what i noticed was that 10/7 was by far the best, followed by 6.5/6.5, then 7/10. Hope this helps in some way.
I did a littlke test with my stock '95 Eclipse. It only has racing suspension and TCS is at 1. The bound is 6/6 and rebound is 8/8, ride height is 110 f/r.
Theses are the spring rates i tried, all test were with b-spec on laguna seca on setting 3. IBob did 3 laps with each spring rate and i recorded the best lap time.
6.5/6.5 1'50.669
7/10 1'50.923
10/7 1'50.667
it's pretty close all around, don't know if this helps, just trying to see if there was something I could bring to the table.
I did test the car out with those settings manually as well, nd what i noticed was that 10/7 was by far the best, followed by 6.5/6.5, then 7/10. Hope this helps in some way.
Damper does the same as in real life It effects the speed of the weight transfer (Not the amount of weight) and helps keep her planted if you hit bumps or the curb, especially when landing from big air.
lowering her directly efects the amount of weight transfer (Reducing it) By lowering the cars center of gravity.
SB takes the initial impact. If its FF or FR the Front is Heavy and it will take more force to lift the heavy end so it can handle high SB to absorbe the impact quickly. If its too soft where the weight is it will cushine the impact too much, & the wheel will travle more then nessessary (Picture a old school Cadilac with a really long wheel baise lenth (Distance between front and rear wheels, this will exagerate the effect to emphasize the point) If this car were to hit a bump with a Soft set up (Low rear & Front SB & SRB) , all the cusioning would have the car going up and down up and down up and down, not prime for racing. Where a Stronger set up would be more jerky but less up and down travle. (Less comphy but better for handling) If the SB is too soft and the SRB too high, the impact will put the wheel high up in the wheel well and the SRB will push her down hard (Bouncy bouncy)
SRB pushes the wheel back into place, The heavier the section of aplycation the Stonger this can be.
If the SB is higher then the SRB any impact will bounce the end up and cushin the drop, this is the slowest way posible to get the wheels where they are needed. and these variables cause adverse affects on the handling of the car.
Getting the wheel back in place as quickly as possible insures most controle.
Front SB that is too High on a MR car can cause bouncing because the front is lighter and requires less force to lift it up and small impacts (bumps curbs, ect) will be enough to get too much lift in the front. The Same with Too much Front SRB on a MR. Even if the SB is soft enough to absorb the impact if the SRB is too high it will send the front up like a low low (Seattle hills helps to see this, as the jumps on the hill will make adverse effects)
The The same Principle is applyed to pretty much all cars. Higher figures where there is more weight. And Lower figures where there is less.
For FR & FF If the Rear SB is too high she will be tail bouncy while the front is more planted.
Rear SRB for FF & FR can be elevated (More so for FR then FF as you want to keep the wheels giving power planted, but overdoing it will get her tail bouncy still
As for the effects on weight transher, the higher damper setting will speed up the shift of weight while cornering & lower setting will slow it down. This helps when tossing the tail out
FR & FF cars (having high SB settings up front and lower SB in the rear) The Front will grip first and allow the tail to come out arround right after.
Keep in mind its important to always have the SRB higher then the SB usually double, but its not a rule. So when I say High SB 6 or 7 is high SB and usually SB should never exceed these figures. SRB can be higher, but should genrally be adjusted relatively to the SB
examples SB/SRB 2/4 3/6 4/8 5/10
But keep in mind the ration 1/2 is not a absolut, 5/8, 3/7, or 4/9 are all feasable variables
Never count out over doing something. If its said FF's like Stiffer front and Softer rear, this doesnt mean toss 15/5 on all your FF's. Move in small jumps in the direction, not huge leaps.
impact-bounce-cushine-Back in place
Impact obsorbed - Wheels back in play
Hope it helps
lowering her directly efects the amount of weight transfer (Reducing it) By lowering the cars center of gravity.
SB takes the initial impact. If its FF or FR the Front is Heavy and it will take more force to lift the heavy end so it can handle high SB to absorbe the impact quickly. If its too soft where the weight is it will cushine the impact too much, & the wheel will travle more then nessessary (Picture a old school Cadilac with a really long wheel baise lenth (Distance between front and rear wheels, this will exagerate the effect to emphasize the point) If this car were to hit a bump with a Soft set up (Low rear & Front SB & SRB) , all the cusioning would have the car going up and down up and down up and down, not prime for racing. Where a Stronger set up would be more jerky but less up and down travle. (Less comphy but better for handling) If the SB is too soft and the SRB too high, the impact will put the wheel high up in the wheel well and the SRB will push her down hard (Bouncy bouncy)
SRB pushes the wheel back into place, The heavier the section of aplycation the Stonger this can be.
If the SB is higher then the SRB any impact will bounce the end up and cushin the drop, this is the slowest way posible to get the wheels where they are needed. and these variables cause adverse affects on the handling of the car.
Getting the wheel back in place as quickly as possible insures most controle.
Front SB that is too High on a MR car can cause bouncing because the front is lighter and requires less force to lift it up and small impacts (bumps curbs, ect) will be enough to get too much lift in the front. The Same with Too much Front SRB on a MR. Even if the SB is soft enough to absorb the impact if the SRB is too high it will send the front up like a low low (Seattle hills helps to see this, as the jumps on the hill will make adverse effects)
The The same Principle is applyed to pretty much all cars. Higher figures where there is more weight. And Lower figures where there is less.
For FR & FF If the Rear SB is too high she will be tail bouncy while the front is more planted.
Rear SRB for FF & FR can be elevated (More so for FR then FF as you want to keep the wheels giving power planted, but overdoing it will get her tail bouncy still
As for the effects on weight transher, the higher damper setting will speed up the shift of weight while cornering & lower setting will slow it down. This helps when tossing the tail out
FR & FF cars (having high SB settings up front and lower SB in the rear) The Front will grip first and allow the tail to come out arround right after.
Keep in mind its important to always have the SRB higher then the SB usually double, but its not a rule. So when I say High SB 6 or 7 is high SB and usually SB should never exceed these figures. SRB can be higher, but should genrally be adjusted relatively to the SB
examples SB/SRB 2/4 3/6 4/8 5/10
But keep in mind the ration 1/2 is not a absolut, 5/8, 3/7, or 4/9 are all feasable variables
Never count out over doing something. If its said FF's like Stiffer front and Softer rear, this doesnt mean toss 15/5 on all your FF's. Move in small jumps in the direction, not huge leaps.
impact-bounce-cushine-Back in place
Impact obsorbed - Wheels back in play
Hope it helps
- 2,171
are you sure GT4 doesn't set the rebound value twice the bound value for the same setting value?
ie.
if we set 1/1 1/1 (frontbound/rearbound frontrebound/rearrebound)
it will actually set 1/1 2/2 on the car
if we set 7/7 7/7 it will actually set 7/7 14/14 on the car
if we set 10/10 10/107 it will actually set 10/10 20/20 on the car
It seems nobody ever test it.
ie.
if we set 1/1 1/1 (frontbound/rearbound frontrebound/rearrebound)
it will actually set 1/1 2/2 on the car
if we set 7/7 7/7 it will actually set 7/7 14/14 on the car
if we set 10/10 10/107 it will actually set 10/10 20/20 on the car
It seems nobody ever test it.
sucahyo
Ummm.......What?
GT4 Used the presented values. In real life with adjuable dampers you adjust the strent in levels (1 to 5 for example 1 being the softest) The more high end ones have settings for both SB and SRB Front & rear. Both front, & rear SB & SRB use the same levels of strenthening or weakening for the Imput variable (Level 1 SB is the Same strenth level as Level 1 SRB, exept in the oposite direction & NOT double)
Soooo if you set 7/7 Front/Rear SB & 7/7 Front/rear SRB you have 7/7 Front/Rear SB & 7/7 Front/rear SRB, and NOT 7/7 14/14.
The game use the same priciples, it would be odd for them to double up a variable within a aplication without a indication. And I will assure you enough testing has been done, this is beyond confirmed.
- 2,171
I read somewhere in this forum someone notice when using 6/6 6/6 damper, the wheel have faster bound than rebound. he said that when using the same damper value, the wheel speed when going up is faster than when it going down. Maybe he see it when doing slow motion replay.........TeamQuick
sucahyo
They were confused.
(too much of that in here every now and then.)
Formulas to calculate spring rates and so on, all nonsence. If they sound like they just figgured something amazing out and right a huge post to explaine it, its usually not worth your time of day. Best info comes from experienced tuners & from what Ive seen people with real life experience tend to be more familiar with the concepts in play and efects of adjustments, not to mention being able to PROPRLY read the efect of adjustments. Most people blame bad tuning on there driving style.
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sucahyo
I'd say there is.. since some cars definitely feel more responsive with softer rebound, and I have yet to make a car in GT4 bounce except from elaborate jumps. Another weird thing is the marginal difference it seems to make.. except for that one golden setting.
Since they actually write in the "tooltip" that rebound should be higher than bound, I doubt that there's already a multiplier in the rebound slider. I'm not sure why the dampers are always 8 all around when you first equip the suspension.. when the springs are already tuned to acommodate the weight balance.
@teamquick: I'll have to be frank with you; most of what you said is common knowledge and I assume that those who write here understand how it's supposed to work... What this thread is all about is understanding GT4's suspension physics with a blatant disregard to real life. Since GT4's physics don't seem to allow individual wheels to lose contact with the ground (side effect from not allowing cars to flip?), then there's obviously somethings wrong (when did you last see a stiffly setup FF lift the inside rear wheel in GT4?).
Ske
A bouncy front end or rear end doent mean a wheel nessesarily needs to "Break contact" for it to be traveling too much within its limits (Being "bouncy"). Your Car WILL break contact with bad setting lading from big air (and some times with good settings Check the 05 GT Stang, she likes to buck from big air).
And the adjustments Make diferences, Its READING them that is important.
"Some cars feel more responsive with softer rebound" You need to realize there are 2 ends of a car ,posibilities are not simply Soft car, Hard car, it could be other posibilities F/R s/h h/s (These Generally are Better for Cars without 50/50 weight distrobution, that is most cars on the road), HOWEVER when you find cars with closer F/R weigth ratios the damper settings will become more ballanced as well.
Just because a few cars might find themselvs to be exceptions to the rule, doesnt disprove the rule.
PD even uses the Actual gear ratios for each car (Proven through testing the Skyline) They did alot to keep the game as close to reality as posible, and after tuning a good chunk of cars in GT4 I can say with CONFIDENCE, using real world practices works BEST, as PD intended!
I say again
Best info comes from experienced tuners & from what Ive seen people with REAL WORLD experience tend to be more familiar with the concepts in play and efects of adjustments, not to mention being able to PROPRLY read the efect of adjustments.
Most people blame bad tuning on there driving style.
- 2,171
I have second thought,TeamQuick
let's say there is imaginary stock japanese car that have 0.2G bound and 0.4G rebound (I don't know the correct measurement for damper). Assuming that the car has double rebound value (negative) compare to bound in real life.
In GT the damper of stock car will be represented with value of 1. This would means:
- Damper value of 1 will means 0.2G for bound, 0.4G for rebound. Giving the value of 10 will means 2G for bound, 4G for rebound.
- PD decide not to simulate damper perfectly, damper value of 1 will means 0.2G for bound, 0.2G for rebound. Giving the value of 10 will means 2G for bound, 2G for rebound.
here is nice irrelevant picture from sachs damper
and from www.autozine.org
sucahyo
PD decided to get as close to reality as posible. & The Fact they got it so close is the reason this game is so great (Among other things) and better then the rest.
When you adjust Dampers in real life there is a Setting range (most are arround 1 to 6, six being the strongest, one being the weakest [PD went with 1 to 10]) There is a Setting for SB & one for SRB (Same as in the Game). The incriments of stiffness between the levels depends on the modle and make of Damper (being how much diference there is between setting 1 and setting 2), In order to have a stronger SRB then SB, you need to set it to a higher level (SB/SRB set at 3/6 for example to have double SRB then SB.) This is how its done in reality, AND in the Game.
What would indicate anything otherwise???????
Why is this so hard to understand?
Whats weird is that people only think its doubled up automatically because when you add a Fully customizable suspention the default setting is 8/8 SB/SRB. IT's GENERIC, & Being at 8/8 has no relevance to the car at all. Ad adjustable dampers and when you install them they will start at equal levels untill you adjust them.
PD even goes so far as to explain "Adjust the SRB usually double the SRB" it doesnt say the SRB adjustments move in incriments double that of the SB, so what would make people think that?
When you put a fully tuned suspention on the car the default setting is by FAR generic and not prime, Or Stock settings, For example if you ad a FC tranny IT WILL NOT work better with the default settings then a completly stock transmition, the Stock transmition will most often be FASTER then a FC transmition in default settings)
If the "imaginary stock japanese car" has higher SB then SRB, thats because the SRB would have to be set at a higher level then the SB. Generally twice as high.
sucahyo
Its 1/1 because dampers are set 1/1, its for you to adjust them to offset variables.
Why would you assume 1/1 is 1/2 because the DEFAULT, NOT Stock setting is 8/8?
8/8 is a Default setting applyed to EVERY car, its for the tuner to adjust it for best results, PD EVEN goes so far as to indicate the importance of having a higher SRB then SB, usually double.
WHAT would indicate otherwise?
It doesnt make any sence even, please RE-READ my previous explinations if you still beleve SRB is Double with the same variable as SB (SB/SRB 8/8 = 8/16) If you still beleve this there nothing that can be done.
- 2,171
Sorry, I don't have GT4, I just interested with this discussion, so I don't know that in GT4 you can change the damper of stock car with stock suspension.
In GT2, stock car with stock suspension display 1/1 on damper which is unchangable , by putting FC we can set front-rear-bound-rebound to the damper.
In GT2 I figure if the stock car displaying 1/1 on stock suspension, when real life value usually have rebound value double of bound value, then by putting FC, we'll be setting multiplication of stock suspension setting.
In GT2, stock car with stock suspension display 1/1 on damper which is unchangable , by putting FC we can set front-rear-bound-rebound to the damper.
In GT2 I figure if the stock car displaying 1/1 on stock suspension, when real life value usually have rebound value double of bound value, then by putting FC, we'll be setting multiplication of stock suspension setting.
But I highly doubt the programmer and the user guide writer is the same person, especially when the programmer is japanese and the user guide is in english.....Ske
- 2,063
I did some fairly involved research into this a little while ago and took the express position of putting aside what I 'know' about how real world cars and their suspensions work so that I would only interpret what I observed from making a change.
The somewhat rambling notes I made can be found here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60369&page=3
The general precis of it all is that 'proper' tuning rules can and do apply as long as you sort out the chassis balance first before you start tweaking and refining the handling. Doing that can take a bit of experimenting but it is attainable - I managed it on the Aston by applying simplified suspension frequency calculations for example.
However, as others have said above, I have found myself that there is a tendency for the stiffer set-up end of the car to handle as if it had more grip (which indeed may be how it has been coded) but the changes in roll-stiffness can have unexpected side-effects. I have to confess, tho', that a stiffer rear rate was the method I used to cure the lift-off oversteer on my Land Rover
.
What has to be borne in mind is that the suspension is a complex system and that each part of it has some impact on the others when you change it - that's what made the above linked study so frustrating as I was trying like mad to stick with the 'change one thing at a time axiom' and was getting some nonsensical results as a given setting got out of synch with it's fellows.
The somewhat rambling notes I made can be found here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60369&page=3
The general precis of it all is that 'proper' tuning rules can and do apply as long as you sort out the chassis balance first before you start tweaking and refining the handling. Doing that can take a bit of experimenting but it is attainable - I managed it on the Aston by applying simplified suspension frequency calculations for example.
However, as others have said above, I have found myself that there is a tendency for the stiffer set-up end of the car to handle as if it had more grip (which indeed may be how it has been coded) but the changes in roll-stiffness can have unexpected side-effects. I have to confess, tho', that a stiffer rear rate was the method I used to cure the lift-off oversteer on my Land Rover
.What has to be borne in mind is that the suspension is a complex system and that each part of it has some impact on the others when you change it - that's what made the above linked study so frustrating as I was trying like mad to stick with the 'change one thing at a time axiom' and was getting some nonsensical results as a given setting got out of synch with it's fellows.
You cant adjust the damper on a stock suspention, only FC suspentions. When a Stock suspention is installed there is NO DIPSPLAY of the Damper settings or any other for that matter. Only when a FC Suspention is put in do you see the variables 8/8 as DEFAULT settings. The reason for this is There IS NO settings on a NON customizeable damper. Its built with SB & SRB levels preset to the damper modles specifications (Depends on the aplication)
sukering, you bring up another Good and important point. Nothing can be fully adjusted by itself (You cant focus on damper leaving everything else to be played with once you get the damper where you like it) Every adjustment to the suspention reguardless as to what your adjusting [dampes, spring rate, ect] it will have a impact on everything else.
sukering, you bring up another Good and important point. Nothing can be fully adjusted by itself (You cant focus on damper leaving everything else to be played with once you get the damper where you like it) Every adjustment to the suspention reguardless as to what your adjusting [dampes, spring rate, ect] it will have a impact on everything else.
- 2,171
Wow long explanation, its gonna take a while to read it 👍sukerkinHowever, as others have said above, I have found myself that there is a tendency for the stiffer set-up end of the car to handle as if it had more grip (which indeed may be how it has been coded) but the changes in roll-stiffness can have unexpected side-effects. I have to confess, tho', that a stiffer rear rate was the method I used to cure the lift-off oversteer on my Land Rover
.Have you tried using higher spring rate but with lower damper? example(s2000):
Springs:11.1/11.1
Damper Bound: 8/8
Damper Rebound: 8/8
vs
Springs:20.0/20.0
Damper Bound: 1/1
Damper Rebound: 1/1
On GT2 I FEEL using harder spring will help grip. And I think when you increased the spring rate you should decrease the damper.
- 188
- Fort Riley
- KW_Variant2_DB8
I did some testing with the spring rate on my Saleen S7, and I found out that a 12/7 setting will give it neutral to a little oversteer. This brought the biggest smile to my face after spending countless hours doing reverse tuning on the damn thing all this time. I put on a supercharger to try and replicate the new Twin Turbo S7, it's actually pretty close (753) horses. Hope this helps some people. Now i know that at least some of the cars are need to be tuned the "wrong" way.
P.S. It's nice to see someone else from Norway Ske. Lenge siden jeg så noen normen på nettet.
P.S. It's nice to see someone else from Norway Ske. Lenge siden jeg så noen normen på nettet.
sucahyoWow long explanation, its gonna take a while to read it 👍
Have you tried using higher spring rate but with lower damper? example(s2000):
Springs:11.1/11.1
Damper Bound: 8/8
Damper Rebound: 8/8
vs
Springs:20.0/20.0
Damper Bound: 1/1
Damper Rebound: 1/1
On GT2 I FEEL using harder spring will help grip. And I think when you increased the spring rate you should decrease the damper.
You should lean away from uniforming the front settings with the rear. (Generally SR and Damper settings for the front of the car are diferent then the settings on the rear)
As well the SR should be lower and NOT equaL to the SRB.
Best results come from real world practices.
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