General Tuning Guide (Updated 1.09)

[speedy turtle]

1:49.9xx and looking forward to tuning the springs.

Wow @Lionheart2113, it’s another planet time for me by the moment. I’m still far from being able to reduce more than 3 seconds. This is the difference between a professional and an amateur. I’m very limited by oversteer on bends exit.

When we'll finish with the suspension, and if you don't mind I'll ask you about your gearbox.


Ok, here is my feedback, I hope it’ll be useful:

Yes @DolHaus, your numbers are fine, they match with mine. I’m going to present my impression about the laps I’ve raced with the new spring rate values: F: 11.01 / R: 11.46, but they aren’t in the same displacement (F: 20% / R: 11%);later I’ll tell you my impression having made a new modification about which I’d like your opinion.

A. (F: 11.01 / R: 11.46)
In general it brakes well on straight line, doesn’t lose the rear (sometimes with other cars I lose the path when I’m racing at 180 or 190 mph, and I brake in straight line), then I think I found the balance with LSD decel.

But if I need continue braking while turn the steering wheel then I lose the grip, the understeer appears and I go to the outside of the bend sliding four wheels in parallel. It becomes more apparent on low speed bends (number: 2, 6, 10, 11, 14 & 15)

You ask me about the rotation too… The coasting period is difficult, the car doesn’t like to rotate, then if I push the throttle, the car oversteer and I lose the rear wheels.

When I exit, I have to be very cautious with the throttle, if I push it hard before finish turning the steering wheel, I lose the rear. If I wait to be on straight line there aren’t problems… of course, but the lap times 👎... I have to push little by little, but I haven’t the touch yet.

On the other hand, on faster bends I simply release the throttle without needing to step on the brakes, the rear slides a little, enough to realign the car and then I can push the throttle again (bends: 3, 5, in some case 17…).

Please don’t feel cheated, because I told you there weren’t problems before this initial suspension modification and now all the problems have appeared. Now I’m laying more interest on details, and at the beginning I was concentrated only on red tyres and general feelings.

Ok, you can forget the lasts paragraphs, or maybe not… no, I’m not crazy, or so I think…

B. (F: 11.01 / R: 12.45)
Like you see, the bars displacement of the front and rear spring rate are not equal… I don’t know what it implies… yet; but as you mentioned something about it in your last message, I increased an entire point the rear SR: 12.45, to make it similar to the front SR (20% of the slide bar)

Yes, I don’t know why I increased the rear SR and didn’t reduce the front SR… but it works, at least by now. The car is very much gentle, it turns better, it isn’t a brick and the trasition between the brake stage in the corner entry and the coasting phase inside the corner is smoother.

What do you think about it?

Thank you

 

[Lionheart2113]

Wow @Lionheart2113, it’s another planet time for me by the moment. I’m still far from being able to reduce more than 3 seconds. This is the difference between a professional and an amateur. I’m very limited by oversteer on bends exit.

When we'll finish with the suspension, and if you don't mind I'll ask you about your gearbox.


Ok, here is my feedback, I hope it’ll be useful:

Yes @DolHaus, your numbers are fine, they match with mine. I’m going to present my impression about the laps I’ve raced with the new spring rate values: F: 11.01 / R: 11.46, but they aren’t in the same displacement (F: 20% / R: 11%);later I’ll tell you my impression having made a new modification about which I’d like your opinion.

A. (F: 11.01 / R: 11.46)
In general it brakes well on straight line, doesn’t lose the rear (sometimes with other cars I lose the path when I’m racing at 180 or 190 mph, and I brake in straight line), then I think I found the balance with LSD decel.

But if I need continue braking while turn the steering wheel then I lose the grip, the understeer appears and I go to the outside of the bend sliding four wheels in parallel. It becomes more apparent on low speed bends (number: 2, 6, 10, 11, 14 & 15)

You ask me about the rotation too… The coasting period is difficult, the car doesn’t like to rotate, then if I push the throttle, the car oversteer and I lose the rear wheels.

When I exit, I have to be very cautious with the throttle, if I push it hard before finish turning the steering wheel, I lose the rear. If I wait to be on straight line there aren’t problems… of course, but the lap times 👎... I have to push little by little, but I haven’t the touch yet.

On the other hand, on faster bends I simply release the throttle without needing to step on the brakes, the rear slides a little, enough to realign the car and then I can push the throttle again (bends: 3, 5, in some case 17…).

Please don’t feel cheated, because I told you there weren’t problems before this initial suspension modification and now all the problems have appeared. Now I’m laying more interest on details, and at the beginning I was concentrated only on red tyres and general feelings.

Ok, you can forget the lasts paragraphs, or maybe not… no, I’m not crazy, or so I think…

B. (F: 11.01 / R: 12.45)
Like you see, the bars displacement of the front and rear spring rate are not equal… I don’t know what it implies… yet; but as you mentioned something about it in your last message, I increased an entire point the rear SR: 12.45, to make it similar to the front SR (20% of the slide bar)

Yes, I don’t know why I increased the rear SR and didn’t reduce the front SR… but it works, at least by now. The car is very much gentle, it turns better, it isn’t a brick and the trasition between the brake stage in the corner entry and the coasting phase inside the corner is smoother.

What do you think about it?

Thank you

No no my friend, I am no pro. You just so happen to be on GVS which has been my test track since GT5.
That is a great description of how the car handles for you. Well done!

 

[DolHaus]

Wow @Lionheart2113, it’s another planet time for me by the moment. I’m still far from being able to reduce more than 3 seconds. This is the difference between a professional and an amateur. I’m very limited by oversteer on bends exit.

When we'll finish with the suspension, and if you don't mind I'll ask you about your gearbox.


Ok, here is my feedback, I hope it’ll be useful:

Yes @DolHaus, your numbers are fine, they match with mine. I’m going to present my impression about the laps I’ve raced with the new spring rate values: F: 11.01 / R: 11.46, but they aren’t in the same displacement (F: 20% / R: 11%);later I’ll tell you my impression having made a new modification about which I’d like your opinion.

A. (F: 11.01 / R: 11.46)
In general it brakes well on straight line, doesn’t lose the rear (sometimes with other cars I lose the path when I’m racing at 180 or 190 mph, and I brake in straight line), then I think I found the balance with LSD decel.

But if I need continue braking while turn the steering wheel then I lose the grip, the understeer appears and I go to the outside of the bend sliding four wheels in parallel. It becomes more apparent on low speed bends (number: 2, 6, 10, 11, 14 & 15)

You ask me about the rotation too… The coasting period is difficult, the car doesn’t like to rotate, then if I push the throttle, the car oversteer and I lose the rear wheels.

When I exit, I have to be very cautious with the throttle, if I push it hard before finish turning the steering wheel, I lose the rear. If I wait to be on straight line there aren’t problems… of course, but the lap times 👎... I have to push little by little, but I haven’t the touch yet.

On the other hand, on faster bends I simply release the throttle without needing to step on the brakes, the rear slides a little, enough to realign the car and then I can push the throttle again (bends: 3, 5, in some case 17…).

Please don’t feel cheated, because I told you there weren’t problems before this initial suspension modification and now all the problems have appeared. Now I’m laying more interest on details, and at the beginning I was concentrated only on red tyres and general feelings.

Ok, you can forget the lasts paragraphs, or maybe not… no, I’m not crazy, or so I think…

B. (F: 11.01 / R: 12.45)
Like you see, the bars displacement of the front and rear spring rate are not equal… I don’t know what it implies… yet; but as you mentioned something about it in your last message, I increased an entire point the rear SR: 12.45, to make it similar to the front SR (20% of the slide bar)

Yes, I don’t know why I increased the rear SR and didn’t reduce the front SR… but it works, at least by now. The car is very much gentle, it turns better, it isn’t a brick and the trasition between the brake stage in the corner entry and the coasting phase inside the corner is smoother.

What do you think about it?

Thank you

I wasn't expecting this setup to perform well but testing it is part of the process, sounds like the rear is too soft which is causing the tyres to become overloaded during acceleration, during cornering load the front wheels are losing grip first which is causing the understeer. In both cases the course of action is the same so we must stiffen the rear gradually and test the changes.

Rear Springs:
(1206 x 9.81) 0.51 = 6033.7386

X1.9 = 11.46
X2.0 = 12.07
X2.1 = 12.67
X2.2 = 13.27
x2.3 = 13.88

Please test these spring rates and note the changes in rotation and traction during corner exit. If you find that you kind of like two of the settings then try looking between them by adjusting the sum as follows-
Lets say for example that we like both 2.1 and 2.2, we would simply try 2.15 as our multiplication and test that, our sum would now look like this: ((1206x9.81) 0.51) 2.15 = 12.97




In terms of the car feeling like a brick on entry my suspicion is that the LSD Decel is still too high and perhaps that the Initial is also a click or two too high. I also suspect that the front end needs stiffening slightly but we will get to that in due time.
Unfortunately doing this via proxy is making the process very slow when it should only take an hour or so to get he LSD and spring rates figured out, kind of like how it takes longer to explain how to change a tyre than it does to actually change the tyre

Unfortunately we are at a bit of a tricky point where two things both need adjusting because they could both be causing the same problem. My advice would be to stick with the 12.45 rear spring rates you felt happy with and go back to looking at the LSD Decel and Initial. The effect of the decel is going to be most noticeable on the entry to turn 2 so it should be fairly easy to test, as with all other aspects of the LSD you are looking for the lowest value possible without the rear of the car becoming unstable so try reducing it until that point is found.
It is important to make sure the tyres are up to temperature before testing to ensure consistency so be sure to keep an eye on them, if they are not fully warmed up by the braking zone for T2 then either take a warm up lap or backtrack a little bit from where the game launches you to give ample room.
The Initial is always harder to get right so my advice is to concentrate on the decel first and get that roughly where it needs to be then try lowering the Initial by a click at a time and testing. Look for improved neutral rotation and a more noticeable change in rotation characteristics when coming off the brakes, again the point you are looking for is the lowest value you can get away with. With the Initial and Decel you are always going to lose rotation if they are set too high, there is zero advantage to be found by having these higher than necessary in a RWD car.

Once you have sorted the LSD begin testing the rear spring rates 👍

No no my friend, I am no pro. You just so happen to be on GVS which has been my test track since GT5.
That is a great description of how the car handles for you. Well done!

Any chance you could record a lap for reference? Might help get our friend up to speed 👍

 

[Lionheart2113]

Any chance you could record a lap for reference? Might help get our friend up to speed 👍

I do have it recorded, and I can put it on this weekend. I'll be sure to have all of the display's turned on, volume turned up, and in chase view for comparison.👍

 

[DolHaus]

I do have it recorded, and I can put it on this weekend. I'll be sure to have all of the display's turned on, volume turned up, and in chase view for comparison.👍

Wonderful, thank you very much 👍

 

[Death2508]

How do you calculate spring rates?

 

[Lionheart2113]

How do you calculate spring rates?

Quick Spring Rate Calculation

(Total Weight of Car x Gravity) x (% weight of Specific Axle) / (1,000)

Car Weight: 1,500kg
Weight Distribution: 45/55

(1,500 x 9.81) x (.45) / (1,000) = Front Spring Rate
(1,500 x 9.81) x (.55) / (1,000) = Rear Spring Rate

 

[Lionheart2113]

Apologies for the double post, but here is a video of my run at GVS. I decided to run a new lap with the current settings and parts that are installed instead of my modified transmission and parts.
I was unsure of the transmission that @speedy turtle is using, so I left it at stock and adjusted the End Final to 3.750.
At its current state, I found it very unpredictable all around and not very fun to drive. The rear loves to lift; roasting the tires at Redline just before the shift, and the front turns well at first, but then goes snug further into the corner...all of that leads to lack of confidence when trying to go after it.
1:50.3xx and no, it's not consistent.

 

[DolHaus]

Apologies for the double post, but here is a video of my run at GVS. I decided to run a new lap with the current settings and parts that are installed instead of my modified transmission and parts.
I was unsure of the transmission that @speedy turtle is using, so I left it at stock and adjusted the End Final to 3.750.
At its current state, I found it very unpredictable all around and not very fun to drive. The rear loves to lift; roasting the tires at Redline just before the shift, and the front turns well at first, but then goes snug further into the corner...all of that leads to lack of confidence when trying to go after it.
1:50.3xx and no, it's not consistent.

It definitely needs stiffening at the rear to keep load over the front axle but I can't tell from the external cam what's going on other than that. Doesn't look like it's rolling around much, how did it feel stiffness-wise?

 

[Lionheart2113]

It definitely needs stiffening at the rear to keep load over the front axle but I can't tell from the external cam what's going on other than that. Doesn't look like it's rolling around much, how did it feel stiffness-wise?

Stiffness was good, like you said, it stays pretty flat throughout. Another note would be how most of the time, my fastest lap was my first lap... from my experience that leads me to either inconsistency or ride height/suspension constricted being the issue, but all in due time!

Straight Line Braking: Back end can start to slide around, but manageable.
Initial Turn In: Great, sometimes too responsive and would catch me out. (These first 2 things have me looking at raising the LSD decel a couple of clicks... just for now. Possibly lower it again closer to the end, pending confidence.)
Corner Entry: Starts well, but then pushes up the hill when trying to get down to apex.
Apex: "Rolls" (no brake or throttle) great through the centre, very responsive.
Corner Exit: I can never tell if I'm going to have grip. If there is a gear change or the RPMs are leading to a gear change, and I'm still turning out of the corner, I know the rear is going to step out. Other times it's hit and miss on traction.

Transmission: Gearing needs adjusting for more response and a few shifts out of timing. It's at 230mph, which has it over halfway down on the RPM range, and a mid"ish" End Final... that might be causing some of the push at corner entry.

Most of it could be just me trying to force this thing around the track before it is ready. If I changed my line to a later arc, it will eat up late apex corners as it is, but getting back on the throttle is where the most time and comfort is lost.


Edit: Moved Spring Rate Adjustments to new post below.

 

[Lionheart2113]

Springs:
Weight: 1206
Weight Dist: 49% / 51%

Front: .49(1206 x 9.81) / 1000 = 5.80
Rear: .51(1206 x 9.81) / 1000 = 6.03

Front Spring Rate Range: 8.69 - 20.26 (Stock @ 11.14)
Rear Spring Rate Range: 10.09 - 22.70 (Stock @ 12.77)

Since both sets of springs can't hit the formulated numbers, I took the front stock setting divided by the formula for the front springs.
11.14 / 5.80 = 1.92
Took that number and multiplied the formula for the rear.
1.92 x 6.03 = 11.58 (Used this number as a starting point for the rear springs)

Front: 11.14
Rear: 11.58
The rear has more grip, giving comfort on corner exit, making the car more fun to drive. But now has more understeer developing on corner entry through mid, causing a longer period of time off of the throttle, losing time to the ghost, especially through the last tunnel and the following set of turns.

Decrease Rear by 5% of 11.58
11.58 - .58 = 11.00
Understeer is increasing on corner entry and mid corner. Dropping speeds to the point of power oversteer on exit. Manageable once you know to look out for it. It is easier to handle this car and to hit your marks, even with the understeer. 3rd lap was fastest and had me on the ghosts' bumper at the line.

Increase Rear by 5% of 11.58
11.58 + .58 = 12.16
It is becoming a chore to drive this car again. The rear is sliding around a little more, the rotation is slightly better than the softer settings, and yes I can keep up with my ghost, but it's losing the comfort feeling.

So, do I take the faster car that always seems on edge or the slower car that is more comfortable? For now I would say my Rear Spring Range is 11.00 - 11.50.

*It seems that giving the suspension more freedom to travel has gotten me out of the zone where my first lap was the fastest.*

Front Spring Adjustments with Rear at 11.00

Decrease Front by 5% of 11.14
11.14 - .56 = 10.58
Power oversteer on exit is more noticeable, but getting down to the apex is better. The major change that I see is when hitting the curbs. It hits soft enough, but then jolts shortly after take-off. Inconsistency in lap times is back. (Ride Height not giving enough travel for the softer spring?)

Increase Front by 5% of 11.14
11.14 + .56 = 11.70
Braking distance is better and more stable. I slaughtered the ghost through the first turn by 2-3ths. It soon caught up as a push condition at corner entry and slalom appeared on the mid speed corners that followed. You can tell the stiffer springs aren't to keen on the rumble strips, but if you are sensible and not greedy (there's me out) it won't disrupt the car too much. Sliding of the rear (not power oversteer) at corner exit is coming back. Best lap time so far on lap 4.

I decided to go higher....
Increase Front by 5% again
11.70 + .56 = 12.26
Well that was interesting! This car is now dominated by the front end. Like a dog with worms, the rear is just being dragged along. It can still slide out on you (rarely) but for the most part you forget that it is a RWD with it having most of the FF characteristics. It slides the front, and is choppy through the turn, but if you can muscle it around the track...it could be the making of a TT setup. It's not the fastest, yet, but it does give you options.

For now I would keep it at 11.70 until Ride Height adjustments are made. But having these notes will help us determine which way we might want to go afterwards.👍

Currently running....
Front: 11.70
Rear: 11.00

 

[Arcanel]

Hello there everyone! Literally just joined in the forum after having just found that this page exists...!... Gotta be late for the party huh? ^^;; Anyway, this guide is certainly something special and when I get the chance, I want to put some of it in practice in the game. I'm a long-seasoned GT veteran I guess, having played from GT 1 through 6 (not sure if good, only know that I can win a decent amount of Quick Matches? XD), but I never really played much with the settings of the cars, other than the gearbox, because I felt what I did was good enough and well, it was enough to win. Then came GT6's Quick Matches and well... I was forced to change if I wanted to win, other than just about using the right car.

I mostly wanted to ask three things first if it was possible (And also for OP, BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT work with the guide and also a thank you for trying to help us newbs who love racing but understand none of it x3).

First off, the settings I've been mostly riding along with most cars have been of this class:






Ride Height:

Rear: 60/70 (or higher, depending on how low the car can go, about 10 inches from the minimum possible).
Front: 60/70 (Idem)

Spring Rate:

Not putting values here because there's too many, but always making the Spring Rate very stiff almost to the maximum possible, and always making rear spring stiffer than the front, or as close as possible depending on the car.

Dampers (Compression):

Front: 2
Rear: 2

Dampers (Extension):

Front: 3
Rear: 3

Anti-Roll Bars:

Front: 2
Rear: 2

Camber Angle:

Front: 0.5°
Rear: 2.0°

Toe Angle:
Front: 0.00°
Rear: 0.60°

Haven't really messed with the LSD or the Gearbox in a gear by gear basis so I gotta get onto that ^^; But I wanted to ask was, with these settings as a whole, since I know each car has it's own proper more adaptable settings and it also needs to adjust to the player, my question was, are these settings better or worse for a racing car? Lately I've been doing the Quick Match which involves a 600 PP limit, and the car I'm using (which seems to be the best so far), is the TS030 Hybrid. But I've realized that with these settings it at least feels like it's much more difficult to work with them on street cars than when you're using racing cars though, maybe this is just me (I also hope I put the stats in a readable way, sorry for that, since this is my first post, probably not gonna come off well x_x)




The second thing I wanted to ask about was about the Power to Weight ratio. Is it always better to go for the lowest PtW possible? I ask this since... if you play around with the oil deterioration, you're able to sometimes achieve a little bit of a better power-to-weight ration but at the same time I always thought that this wasn't necessarily a good thing since the engine isn't running as powerful as it could, even if the lower power means you can turn up the speed limiter up if you had to turn it down for a PP challenge. Is there a correlation between whether PtW is better than higher Speed Limiter or viceversa? Or are there certain times and situations where you can just say that one isn't necessarily better than the other?





And finally the last thing I wanted to ask in regards to the guide, is it always the best thing to try and achieve the 50/50 weight balance ratio? Or can you sometimes fix it a little in order to make a car more controllable? And if it is the best, why exactly and why does the game sometimes give more PP when the weight is placed on the rear and sometimes it doesn't?


I hope this all came out alright, it's 4am and well... probably comitted some mistakes out there, so I hope for the best! ^^;

 

[DolHaus]

Hello there everyone! Literally just joined in the forum after having just found that this page exists...!... Gotta be late for the party huh? ^^;; Anyway, this guide is certainly something special and when I get the chance, I want to put some of it in practice in the game. I'm a long-seasoned GT veteran I guess, having played from GT 1 through 6 (not sure if good, only know that I can win a decent amount of Quick Matches? XD), but I never really played much with the settings of the cars, other than the gearbox, because I felt what I did was good enough and well, it was enough to win. Then came GT6's Quick Matches and well... I was forced to change if I wanted to win, other than just about using the right car.

I mostly wanted to ask three things first if it was possible (And also for OP, BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT work with the guide and also a thank you for trying to help us newbs who love racing but understand none of it x3).

First off, the settings I've been mostly riding along with most cars have been of this class:






Ride Height:

Rear: 60/70 (or higher, depending on how low the car can go, about 10 inches from the minimum possible).
Front: 60/70 (Idem)

Spring Rate:

Not putting values here because there's too many, but always making the Spring Rate very stiff almost to the maximum possible, and always making rear spring stiffer than the front, or as close as possible depending on the car.

Dampers (Compression):

Front: 2
Rear: 2

Dampers (Extension):

Front: 3
Rear: 3

Anti-Roll Bars:

Front: 2
Rear: 2

Camber Angle:

Front: 0.5°
Rear: 2.0°

Toe Angle:
Front: 0.00°
Rear: 0.60°

Haven't really messed with the LSD or the Gearbox in a gear by gear basis so I gotta get onto that ^^; But I wanted to ask was, with these settings as a whole, since I know each car has it's own proper more adaptable settings and it also needs to adjust to the player, my question was, are these settings better or worse for a racing car? Lately I've been doing the Quick Match which involves a 600 PP limit, and the car I'm using (which seems to be the best so far), is the TS030 Hybrid. But I've realized that with these settings it at least feels like it's much more difficult to work with them on street cars than when you're using racing cars though, maybe this is just me (I also hope I put the stats in a readable way, sorry for that, since this is my first post, probably not gonna come off well x_x)




The second thing I wanted to ask about was about the Power to Weight ratio. Is it always better to go for the lowest PtW possible? I ask this since... if you play around with the oil deterioration, you're able to sometimes achieve a little bit of a better power-to-weight ration but at the same time I always thought that this wasn't necessarily a good thing since the engine isn't running as powerful as it could, even if the lower power means you can turn up the speed limiter up if you had to turn it down for a PP challenge. Is there a correlation between whether PtW is better than higher Speed Limiter or viceversa? Or are there certain times and situations where you can just say that one isn't necessarily better than the other?





And finally the last thing I wanted to ask in regards to the guide, is it always the best thing to try and achieve the 50/50 weight balance ratio? Or can you sometimes fix it a little in order to make a car more controllable? And if it is the best, why exactly and why does the game sometimes give more PP when the weight is placed on the rear and sometimes it doesn't?


I hope this all came out alright, it's 4am and well... probably comitted some mistakes out there, so I hope for the best! ^^;

1) As a racing setup you're really screwing yourself over by doing a few things here - Low ride height isn't a particularly desirable thing, leave it closer to stock and give the suspension more room to do its job, you don't gain anything by slamming it to the floor. Super stiff springs are not good at generating grip, the stiffness gives you responsiveness and the softness gives you traction so you need to be in the position of best compromise, soft enough to give you grip and stiff enough to make the car responsive (general rule is that the more grippy the tyres the stiffer the suspension can be). As for which end is stiffer that's a slightly complicated matter that revolves around weight distribution and characteristics, I can't provide a one size fits all solution to that one. Dampers are again complicated but try to look at them as opposite pairs, Front Comp/Rear Ext deals with weight transfer going forward (braking), Front Ext/Rear Comp deals with weight transfer going backwards (acceleration). ARBs deal with body roll so if your car is leaning over like a ship in a gale then stiffen these up, they also control how independent the wheels are so if you are building a rally car then slacken them off so the car can handle bumps better. Camber doesn't do anything good in GT6 so drop that down to 0.0/0.0 as a standard procedure on every car. Toe is useful but the standard 0.60 at the rear is way too much and results in a lot of understeer so if you must use a standard number then try 0.20 instead, personally I drop it back to 0.00 for the purposes of tuning and then add or remove as necessary.

2) Weight reduction is king, the more weight you can strip out of the car the better your lap times will become. Don't worry about peak power too much as the advantages are limited at best unless you are racing on SSRX or Circuit De La Sarthe (tracks with monstrous straights).

3) Weight distribution is somewhat complicated as there are a lot of variables, as a basic rule having more weight over the front axle will give you more predictable front end traction but an increased likelihood of understeer when pushed, more weight over the rear axle will give better rotation but an increased chance of oversteer when pushed. 50/50 is not necessarily best, most predictable perhaps but won't make you faster by default.
Depending on the specification of the car the PP can shift slightly when moving ballast, if its a RWD then you will gain PP for moving the distribution towards the rear, if its a FWD then the opposite will be true. The reasoning behind this is due to basic physics - Weight = Grip, higher % weight on drive wheels means greater potential for performance.



Note to rest of the thread: I'm very busy with Xmas and cannot spare the time for longer discussions at the moment. I will do my best to answer any questions but I can't spare the time to type out pages and pages of explanations at the moment, I will pick things up as soon as possible but time is not on my side at the moment, Thanks for your patience and wishing you all a merry Christmas and a happy new year

 

[Arcanel]

1) As a racing setup you're really screwing yourself over by doing a few things here - Low ride height isn't a particularly desirable thing, leave it closer to stock and give the suspension more room to do its job, you don't gain anything by slamming it to the floor. Super stiff springs are not good at generating grip, the stiffness gives you responsiveness and the softness gives you traction so you need to be in the position of best compromise, soft enough to give you grip and stiff enough to make the car responsive (general rule is that the more grippy the tyres the stiffer the suspension can be). As for which end is stiffer that's a slightly complicated matter that revolves around weight distribution and characteristics, I can't provide a one size fits all solution to that one. Dampers are again complicated but try to look at them as opposite pairs, Front Comp/Rear Ext deals with weight transfer going forward (braking), Front Ext/Rear Comp deals with weight transfer going backwards (acceleration). ARBs deal with body roll so if your car is leaning over like a ship in a gale then stiffen these up, they also control how independent the wheels are so if you are building a rally car then slacken them off so the car can handle bumps better. Camber doesn't do anything good in GT6 so drop that down to 0.0/0.0 as a standard procedure on every car. Toe is useful but the standard 0.60 at the rear is way too much and results in a lot of understeer so if you must use a standard number then try 0.20 instead, personally I drop it back to 0.00 for the purposes of tuning and then add or remove as necessary.

2) Weight reduction is king, the more weight you can strip out of the car the better your lap times will become. Don't worry about peak power too much as the advantages are limited at best unless you are racing on SSRX or Circuit De La Sarthe (tracks with monstrous straights).

3) Weight distribution is somewhat complicated as there are a lot of variables, as a basic rule having more weight over the front axle will give you more predictable front end traction but an increased likelihood of understeer when pushed, more weight over the rear axle will give better rotation but an increased chance of oversteer when pushed. 50/50 is not necessarily best, most predictable perhaps but won't make you faster by default.
Depending on the specification of the car the PP can shift slightly when moving ballast, if its a RWD then you will gain PP for moving the distribution towards the rear, if its a FWD then the opposite will be true. The reasoning behind this is due to basic physics - Weight = Grip, higher % weight on drive wheels means greater potential for performance.



Note to rest of the thread: I'm very busy with Xmas and cannot spare the time for longer discussions at the moment. I will do my best to answer any questions but I can't spare the time to type out pages and pages of explanations at the moment, I will pick things up as soon as possible but time is not on my side at the moment, Thanks for your patience and wishing you all a merry Christmas and a happy new year

Huh... interestingly enough I've always felt somewhat comfortable in this setup though, I guess I just don't know what could be so much better as a whole. I've always guided myself in the little general description of how to somewhat tune in the Suspension but well, it IS a general description, I should know that it's pretty far away from what would be the beat-all rule. Alright, I'll start tampering with some things in that case, see what happens.

I'm gonna presume that say, Comfort tires will need more softer springs, Sports tires somewhere along in the middle and Racing tires more closer to a stiffer setting, something along those ways? And I also guess that say, if you have a weight distribution that veers more to giving you more chances of understeer, you make a spring setting that will counter with some chances of oversteer and viceversa, more or less? (Probably oversimplifying the concept but, it's what I got so far in understanding it x_x)

Hmmm... I'm gonna guess that the damper pairs work something like if softened or stiffened in tandem it will affect if there's some loss in breaking or acceleration depending on if you're making them soft or stiff respectively? (It's one of the more confusing things for myself so I guess I'm simply trying to go by what I think is the right physics for it? Like, if a car has a lot of acceleration then a lot of the weight transfer goes backwards and needs a softer setting so the car room for motion? Or does it work the other way around?)

Alllllllllllright then, always go for less weight in that case unless I absolutely need Top Speed for whatever reason.

And huh. Uhhh... I have to admit I'm slightly confused. While you're having more weight on the area which is where the car gets more traction from, does that mean that an FWD which has tendencies to understeer, has more chances to understeer and then an RWD which has tendencies to oversteer, has more chances to oversteer? Or am I understanding the concept wrong?




Also forgot to mention too, Thank you very much for the advice Dolhaus and also Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all! Let's take it all easy and do things when we can! ^^

 

[Inferno 2047]

And this is why I love GTP, simplicity in a complex subject I always struggled with suspension tuning, and this will be a big help

 

[Arcanel]

Hoooooly crap. So... I got tamper today with the suspension especifically for the TS030 (which is the car I'm regularly using the quick match), and I essentially followed Dolhaus' advice and turned down all the way the Camber, changed the Toe Angle for 0.00 in the rear too, and as a bonus, I tinkered a bit with the LSD too especially on the Acceleration setting which was on 40. GOOD LORD WAS THAT NECESSARY. I've lowered it now to 10 and mother of all unholy does it make the car so much easier to control on acceleration, which was the bane of my existance with that car and especially on a track like Trial Mountain which is where I'm racing and also testing out.

I didn't change the ARB or the Dampers yet as I didn't have enough time but the springs on the car are:

Front: 18.50
Rear: 19.50

With a ride height of 75 on both fronts. I went from making laps of 1:15:700 to now laps of 1:14:500 if I do things right, and I think I could go even lower than that even in the current settings. Maybe I could go for around a 1:13:500 mark if I tinker around a bit more with the car. (I'm using a Dualshock 3 by the way, I use the D-pad for movement, and race with ABS 1, Traction Control 0, and the other aids off too).

I also started to mess with the transmission too though... I think I'm somewhat inexperienced yet in knowing what is more proper for the gear spacing in the current time.

 

[Arcanel]

So... after several races between yesterday and today done with the car and after having tinkered with it for quite a bit too, I THINK, I've managed to find some sort of balance for myself, though to be honest, it's something I'm still trying to get to grips with in terms of controlling the car in the track a few times and also getting used to the track itself with the current settings I got. And I'm not sure if it's the best place to do this, but I wanted to share the specs I'm using for the Quick Match involving a 4 lap race around Reverse Trial Mountain, Standing Start.

Course: Reverse Trial Mountain

Controller: Dualshock 3. D-pad use, and buttons, no analog stick use.

Driving Options:

Transmission: Manual
Active Steering: Off
Traction Control: 0
ASM: Off
ABS: 1
Controller Steering Sensitivity: 2
Force Feedback Max. Torque: 1
Force Feedback Sensitivity: 10

(And I'm probably sure that one of the last three is probably wrong if not more, any imput on that would be appreciated ^^; )

Car Settings:

Toyota TS030 Hybrid '12
PP: 600
Max. Power: 462 HP
Weight: 900 Kg
Front/Rear Weight Distribution: 50/50
Displacement: 3,400 cc
Max. Torque: 321 ft-lb
Power to Weight Ratio: 1.94 Kg/HP
Max RPM: 10,500

Oil Change: Yes
Body Rigidity Increase: Yes
Car Wash: Yes

Tires:
Front/Rear Tires: Racing: Hard



Suspension: Height-Adjustable, Fully Customizable Suspension (Default)


Ride Height:
Front: 75 inches (Min= 50, Max =90)
Rear: 75 inches (Idem)

Spring Rate:
Front: 20.92 kgf/mm (Min= 14.01, Max= 24.50)
Rear: 21.92 kgf/mm (Min= 14.92, Max= 25.71)

Dampers (Compression):
Front: Level 3
Rear: Level 3

Dampers (Extension):
Front: Level 4
Rear: Level 4

Anti-Roll Bars:
Front: Level 2
Rear: Level 3

Camber Angle:
Front: 0.0°
Rear: 0.0°

Toe Angle:
Front: 0.20°
Rear: 0.10°


Brakes: Racing Brakes (Default)

Brake Balance:

Front: Level 7
Rear: Level 7



Transmission: Fully Customizable Dog-Clutch Transmission (Default)

Max Speed: 240

Gearbox:
1st: 5.579
2nd: 3.745
3rd: 2.913
4th: 2.311
5th: 1.986
6th: 1.750
Final Gear: 2.975



Drivetrain:

Differential Gear: Fully Customizable Mechanical Limited Slip Differential (Default)

Initial Torque:
Front: --
Rear: Level 5

Acceleration Sensitivity:
Front: --
Rear: Level 5

Braking Sensitivity:
Front: --
Rear: Level 15



Power:

Power Limiter: 83.1%
Racing Exhaust (default)

(Everything else standard as you can't modify the car on any other side)



Body:

Downforce:
Front: Level 600 (Min= 300, Max= 600)
Rear: Level 650 (Min= 500, Max= 850)

Ballast Weight: 0 Kg
Ballast Position: 0%

(Also no change can be done to reduce weight, only increase it)




I'm... very new to the whole "feeling" the car, as I don't think I could give a proper description. What I can do though is say that with these settings, the car is able to corner very well and gives a lot of reliability on even being able to handle sharp cornering to the point of starting to slide, with a decent normal Top Speed of 255/257 Km/H on the straight, and allowing around 10 more for draft. The problem with the car starts to come around having to deal with gears 3rd and 4th (since you won't be using 1st and 2nd anymore unless you crash or spin out in the track), as, even with the LSD Accel all the way down, with TC 0 it can be somewhat challenging to control the car on full throttle during a turn in those gears, and especially in the turns with the highest difference in climbing and downhill which are everywhere in the track anyway. Not even using analog sticks myself that's obviously gonna be harder to control the throttle so I try around to control with press/release mechanics for the most part.

So far, my best lap in Time Trial mode that I was able to pull off was 1:14:291 with the setup I'm using now, but I feel with the current settings I have, I can push for under 1:14, which is good since, out of all the races I've done so far, the fastest lap I've seen is 1:13:9xx and that was just today, and I've been playing the race for I think over a week now. For the most part, I just need to get a bit more used to the track and I should be fine.

Either way, I hope this helps someone, maybe want to try it out for themselves, or is at least a good insight as a whole. Probably not nearly as good even in the tune itself but it's what I got so far ^^; Also, as always, any advice or critque would be appreciated.

 

[Arcanel]

Yaaaaaaahooooooo! It took me a bit of a good while but my god I did it! I finally went under the 1:14 mark in the track! It also involved me having to make a few changes to test out but in the end, what ended up making the huge difference was none other the spring rate, which was ironically the only change I ended up making to the set up described earlier, alongside with the brake balance.

Current Spring Rate:

Front: 17.92 kgf/mm
Rear: 18.92 kgf/mm

Brake Balance:

Front: Level 5
Rear: Level 5


It was just two things but it helped make the usual turning surprisingly more smoother than I ever gave it credit for to be honest, but more importantly, helped me make lower times in a more consistent fashion too. I also realized that this is something I should have balanced sooner considering that, with a ride height that is closer to it's maximum height (75 out of 90 inches), than it's minimum (50), I probably should have lowered the spring rate below the medium range to max and balance out with the ride height. I have no idea if I can actually make this set up better? (Probably can) But for the time being I'm very content with my newest results.

As it stands, my new lowest lap which I got (and it was actually recorded by the game as I didn't commit penalties!) is:

1:13:794

Sector 1: 0:16:325
Sector 2: 0:36:614
Sector 3: 0:58:701
Sector 4: 1:13:794

And the best part is, it's not even the lowest time I could go for! As I was playing against the ghost of my replay, I noticed that in a few parts, I actually lost some time due to small errors which cost me probably between 2 to 4 tens of a second so I'm very, very happy with my current set up. (And as it turns out, in one of the latest races, a guy did around 1:13:5xx so this is more than useful alright).

The moral for me is: "Remember kids, setting up the balance between ride height and spring rate is cruuuuciiaaaaaal."

 

[speedy turtle]

Hello everybody. Happy New Year, my best wishes for everyone. Happiness, health and job...

Two weeks away from the thread and GT6, and I've found lots of information to read and study... I have much work to do, plenty of things to put into practice.

Thanks for contributing.

 

[speedy turtle]

Hello, I'm going to review a little to remember data I set before the absence:

(Speedy post #595) LSD: 9/10/15
(Speedy post #601) SR: 11.01/12.45
(DolHaus post #599) Formula SR = Weight x Gravity x Balance / 1000
(DolHaus post #603) Recommendation about to decrease LSD Decel and Initial settings too high.
(LionHeart post #611) Perfect description about initial settings, thinking in a "blind" DolHaus cause he doesn't have the game; and his suspension configuration process.

Well, I've been racing a little these last days and taking into consideration your advices and @LionHeart ones, I reduce LSD Initial and Decel. Now my LSD values are: 7/7/12 and the things go better both turning in and exiting corners.

The next value I modified was the rear SR. Now my best is: (theoretical 6.03) x 2.3 = 13.88… we leave our last month conversation in that point, but I thought that the following logical step will be the front SR so I modified front SR too.

My best front now is (theoretical 5.80) x 2.2 = 12.75.

In any case, like I see that front SR is on the 35.1% of the bar, and rear SR is on the 30.1%, I'm continuing testing the front SR to reduce it a bit.

I was a step ahead and made several other modifications taking into account your initial Miata teaches and lasts @LionHeart indications, one at a time of course 👍, and I think them improved the car behavior a little, but I prefer to continue your teaches without any "personal" contamination except the front SR. In any case if you think we need to continue with the rear SR, just say it.

Summary:

LSD: 7/7/12
SR: 12.75/13.88

Ride height, dampers and brake balance on default values, and camber and toe on 0.0.

When you like and you can I'm opened to continue learning with your teaches.

Thank you very much.

 

[speedy turtle]

Hello... !!! ???

Is there anybody out there?

Pink Floyd - The Wall (1979)

 

[speedy turtle]

Hey guys, I learnt very much in the last quarter of 2016, thank you all of you that contribute to this thread in a greater or lesser extent. Suddenly all of you disappear and I have stayed “alone in the dark”.

I can’t pay in any way your teaches, only being very grateful for your time, patience and effort to teach something that may no longer report satisfactions to you.

I had the hope that, at least, you would like to teach and with your knowledge give others the opportunity to improve.

But now I only have half lessons, I learnt a lot about LSD, ride height, how to make more drivable an understeer FF or an oversteer FR, but I’m without the second part, and I think the most important… Dampers.

I’m trying to make tests, but it is difficult to advance in the right path without really knowing what you are doing.

I know that GT Sport is “on air” now, and you need all your time to dive into the new mechanics and to learn how GT7 is going to work, but others can’t afford the investment of a new console and new games, and have to continue in the GT6 world.

In any case, thank you again for all your time. It was a pleasure to talk to all of you.

 

[Otaliema]

Hey guys, I learnt very much in the last quarter of 2016, thank you all of you that contribute to this thread in a greater or lesser extent. Suddenly all of you disappear and I have stayed “alone in the dark”.

I can’t pay in any way your teaches, only being very grateful for your time, patience and effort to teach something that may no longer report satisfactions to you.

I had the hope that, at least, you would like to teach and with your knowledge give others the opportunity to improve.

But now I only have half lessons, I learnt a lot about LSD, ride height, how to make more drivable an understeer FF or an oversteer FR, but I’m without the second part, and I think the most important… Dampers.

I’m trying to make tests, but it is difficult to advance in the right path without really knowing what you are doing.

I know that GT Sport is “on air” now, and you need all your time to dive into the new mechanics and to learn how GT7 is going to work, but others can’t afford the investment of a new console and new games, and have to continue in the GT6 world.

In any case, thank you again for all your time. It was a pleasure to talk to all of you.

Dampers are or can be tricky.
They can make or break a tune on the car or they have so little effect it doesn't matter.
Really all they do is dictate thr speed at which the card weight is shifted from front to back and vice versa under breaking and acceleration. This leads to weight control in cornering as well.

If you haven't go read @Motor City Hami guide for tuning.
Your approach to them is going to based on what the tune is for. Racing you want to balance the transition between fast and recovery if you're building a TT you want fast transition with little concern for recovery.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Hey guys, I learnt very much in the last quarter of 2016, thank you all of you that contribute to this thread in a greater or lesser extent. Suddenly all of you disappear and I have stayed “alone in the dark”.

I can’t pay in any way your teaches, only being very grateful for your time, patience and effort to teach something that may no longer report satisfactions to you.

I had the hope that, at least, you would like to teach and with your knowledge give others the opportunity to improve.

But now I only have half lessons, I learnt a lot about LSD, ride height, how to make more drivable an understeer FF or an oversteer FR, but I’m without the second part, and I think the most important… Dampers.

I’m trying to make tests, but it is difficult to advance in the right path without really knowing what you are doing.

I know that GT Sport is “on air” now, and you need all your time to dive into the new mechanics and to learn how GT7 is going to work, but others can’t afford the investment of a new console and new games, and have to continue in the GT6 world.

In any case, thank you again for all your time. It was a pleasure to talk to all of you.

Not all of us will be moving on to GT Sport right away, more are like you who are not able to purchase a PS4 and the game than you think. Some of us will still be on GT6.

 

[speedy turtle]

Thank you guys.

I don’t know if any of you would like to finish my learning, all of you have been present since I began to write on this thread, and know where I am. I like to finish the suspension (dampers) configuration, and then ask @Otaliema about the gearbox.

I don’t know either, if I can continue using this thread or I’d have to open new one.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Thank you guys.

I don’t know if any of you would like to finish my learning, all of you have been present since I began to write on this thread, and know where I am. I like to finish the suspension (dampers) configuration, and then ask @Otaliema about the gearbox.

I don’t know either, if I can continue using this thread or I’d have to open new one.[/QUOTE
If you have any questions, just ask. I'm sure someone will answer and offer help.

 

[F1Racer68]

Thank you guys.

I don’t know if any of you would like to finish my learning, all of you have been present since I began to write on this thread, and know where I am. I like to finish the suspension (dampers) configuration, and then ask @Otaliema about the gearbox.

I don’t know either, if I can continue using this thread or I’d have to open new one.

I'm still around on the site, but have not touched GT6 in almost 2 years. I have moved back to my sim racing roots on the PC side with Project CARS and iRacing. As such, I tend to not pay much attention to the GT6 areas of the site anymore.

With that said, I will try and answer your questions and give you some hopefully helpful information about dampers.

Dampers in the GT world are simplified quite a bit compared to real life and other sims, so it's actually a good place for you to start building your understanding. Keep in mind though that this simplification will mean that your tuning ability in GT6 is also a bit simplified. What I mean by this is that in GT6 you only have "EXTENSION" and "COMPRESSION" settings. In real life, and other more advanced sims, these are further broken down into "FAST" and "SLOW" settings. In GT6, the basic dampers most closely correlate to the "SLOW" dampers everywhere else. So what's the difference?

In the real world, the FAST settings control how the wheels respond to bumps in the road, whereas the SLOW settings control the movement of the body/chassis above the wheels. This movement is called "Weight Transfer".

Now let's take a simplified look at how the dampers control weight transfer:

1. Compression settings control how quickly the weight is allowed to press down on the wheels.
   1. High settings prevent the weight from pressing down
   2. Low settings allow the weight to press down faster
2. Extension settings control how quickly the weight is allowed to be lifted off of the wheels
   1. High settings slow the rate
   2. Low settings increase the rate

So how does this help us? Let's look at some scenarios:

1. High Compression on the front prevents the weight from moving to the front wheels under braking.
2. Low compression settings on the front allow the weight to move to the front more quickly under braking
3. The same is true for the back end of the car under acceleration.
4. High settings on Extension prevent the weight from being lifted off of the front under acceleration.
5. Low settings allow the weight to be lifted quicker from the front under acceleration
6. The same is true for the back end under braking

By combining the use of the Compression and Extension settings you control how the weight is moved from the front to the rear under braking and acceleration. For example, if you are having an issue with the car not wanting to turn under acceleration, then you would increase the front extension and possibly increase the rear compression to slow down the weight transfer from front to rear. By the same token, if you have an issue of the rear wanting to step out under braking, then you would increase rear Extension and increase front compression in order to keep the weight on the rear longer under braking.

I know this was a bit long winded, and probably doesn't answer any specific questions but hopefully it helps with a basic understanding. As with all things tuning related, adjust 1 setting at a time and in small increments and then test to see the impact of the change.

I'll try and keep an eye out for new questions here and will do my best to help answer them.

 

[Otaliema]

Thank you guys.

I don’t know if any of you would like to finish my learning, all of you have been present since I began to write on this thread, and know where I am. I like to finish the suspension (dampers) configuration, and then ask @Otaliema about the gearbox.

I don’t know either, if I can continue using this thread or I’d have to open new one.

You can use this thread or post transmission thread.
Awesome explanation @F1Racer68

 

[Thorin Cain]

Nice info @F1Racer68 and nice to see you around again 👍.

I hope you don't mind if I also add my 2 cents. But I believe that it is also important to say that as well as controlling how the weight is shifted from front to back and vice-versa during acceleration and braking phases. That the same is true for side-side (lateral) motions during cornering.
I only add this because it has rarely been mentioned in any discussion about dampers I've seen around the forum. with ARBs usually being the only parts described to control lateral movement (Body roll). Dampers play a significant role (no pun intended ) there too.

 

[F1Racer68]

Nice info @F1Racer68 and nice to see you around again 👍.

I hope you don't mind if I also add my 2 cents. But I believe that it is also important to say that as well as controlling how the weight is shifted from front to back and vice-versa during acceleration and braking phases. That the same is true for side-side (lateral) motions during cornering.
I only add this because it has rarely been mentioned in any discussion about dampers I've seen around the forum. with ARBs usually being the only parts described to control lateral movement (Body roll). Dampers play a significant role (no pun intended ) there too.

It's absolutely correct regarding side to side, but unfortunately due to GT having simplified them, you don't have much control over the side to side aspect. This is due to the fact that you can only adjust "Front" or "Rear" and not "Left" or "Right".

I think that's why most people tend to focus on the ARBs for that.