German GT forum "GTRP" sued by Sony

[Danoff]

Using Sony's trademarked logos is a nono. The owners of that site should have known that Sony would come after them if they got big enough.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Yes you shouldn't use TM logos, but to just settle for teh domain name seems they were just looking for a reason.

 

[Danoff]

Yes you shouldn't use TM logos, but to just settle for teh domain name seems they were just looking for a reason.

...and they found one.

 

[Famine]

GTRP's argument was that it wasn't the trademarked logo... It bore "strong similarity to" it, but it wasn't the same one.

 

[Evolution.]

No, it seems like someone mentioned earlier. Sony only wanted the domain name and used agressive tactics to obtain it.

Lets all bombard the new owners of the domain

Who says they wont want GTPlanet?

Sony has been in the game with Microsoft for a bit too long...

 

[a6m5]

Who says they wont want GTPlanet?

Sony has been in the game with Microsoft for a bit too long...

That's a strech. They have no legal basis for "gtplanet.net" name, why would they even care?

 

[ExigeEvan]

Who says they wont want GTPlanet?

Sony has been in the game with Microsoft for a bit too long...

Because it isn't granturismo.net.

Granturismo.de is probably a domain they should have snapped up in the beginning, it's a basic but official sounding name.

 

[Danoff]

GTRP's argument was that it wasn't the trademarked logo... It bore "strong similarity to" it, but it wasn't the same one.

It'll be up to a court to decide whether it was similar enough then.

 

[Famine]

Which, being a privately-run site, GTRP cannot afford to fight, thus just the threat of legal action from Sony would be enough for them to roll over GTRP.

Would YOU call Sony's bluff?

I probably would, but I'm a vindictive bastard. Unless you're 100% sure of victory though, I suspect you wouldn't - and even then you'd have doubts.

 

[Evolution.]

Because it isn't granturismo.net.

Granturismo.de is probably a domain they should have snapped up in the beginning, it's a basic but official sounding name.

GTPlanet would be Sonys GT Source...they will always find a way...

and .de usually denotes a german website, so havign that as an official site may not attract some english users.

 

[ExigeEvan]

GTPlanet would be Sonys GT Source...they will always find a way...

and .de usually denotes a german website, so havign that as an official site may not attract some english users.

Yes but it will attract German user

 

[Evolution.]

Yes but it will attract German user

But you were proposing it to be an official website.


Not all GT4 players are German, you fool!

I vote nein on that idea..



*ahem*

I mean...

I vote no..

 

[xcsti]

Not all gt players speak english either.

 

[ExigeEvan]

But you were proposing it to be an official website.


Not all GT4 players are German, you fool!

I vote nein on that idea..



*ahem*

I mean...

I vote no..

The official german site... Even if it was just a redirection to the .com site with full translation, it would still be much more accomadating of German members.

 

[a6m5]

The official german site... Even if it was just a redirection to the .com site with full translation, it would still be much more accomadating of German members.

Exactly. Plus, it's nothing new. Go to any car company sites. Many of them will have local website in your language. Not everybody speaks english.

Edit: Sorry. xcsti already said that.

 

[ledhed]

If they want to be as$wipes about it buy an X- box...oops that belongs to microhitler ( although their racing game is hot ! )...ummm maybe a game cube ? but that sucks...hmmmm tough spot .
They will wake up if people hit them in the pocket book and make them know why ..otherwise they will do as they please and say " its only business, nothing personal " .
IMO its a risky move to alienate a part of your customer base so that domain name move has cost them something more valuable than money ..and thats brand/ customer loyalty .
Great move nitwits . When is the 360 comming out ?

 

[iceburns288]

and .de usually denotes a german website, so havign that as an official site may not attract some english users.

I'm sure they can afford to have multiple sites in different languages... do you know how many googles there are?

 

[Appie]

not good

 

[Delirious]

Before anyone goes bloating around...

Watch how you revive old threads...a two word response isn't the best way.

Also, they have the rule of maximum six lines per signature.

Just wanted to let you know

 

[Duke]

Correct, and correct.

Please don't gravedig old threads unless there is something worthwhile to add. This news is almost 4 months old now, the situation has been resolved, and your post added no new information.

Also, as #17 stated, signatures are to be no longer than 6 lines, including blank lines. There's no reason to waste screen space with a giant sig. Please edit yours down to no more than 6 lines.

 

[T4 GTR]

Sony are beggining to look like they've teamed up with our friend Bill when the haven't. Wonder what excuse Didi will come up with next.



Cheers

T4 GTR

 

[Flerbizky]

Sony are beggining to look like they've teamed up with our friend Bill when the haven't. Wonder what excuse Didi will come up with next.



Cheers

T4 GTR

I suggest you take a look at the very last post until yours in this thread :

Correct, and correct.

Please don't gravedig old threads unless there is something worthwhile to add. This news is almost 4 months old now, the situation has been resolved, and your post added no new information.

Also, as #17 stated, signatures are to be no longer than 6 lines, including blank lines. There's no reason to waste screen space with a giant sig. Please edit yours down to no more than 6 lines.

 

[the Interceptor]

Oh well, actually I wanted to translate the whole story, which has by now been written down by Didi. That is a lot of work, but I think I'll do it anyway, to "complete" this thread.

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[Duke]

I would be interested to read it, as I'm sure others woud too. If you get the chance to post it here in English, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[the Interceptor]

Okay, here we go with the whole story, translated from this thread. You better take a leak and get some food before you start reading, this is going to take some time.

Introduction:
Between 1999 and 2001, Diethelm "Didi" Lisse, the owner of the Gran Turismo Racing Point (GTRP) forums and database officially registered the domains "granturismo.de", "granturismo3.de", "granturismo4.de" and "gt4.de". I know that GT4 wasn't even out then, but thinking of the future, Didi already registered those domains anyway, cause he was sure GT4 would be produced one day.
The ending ".de" stands for "Deutschland" by the way, which is the german word for Germany - just in case you didn't know.

Everything you'll read from now on will not be mine, but Didi's words. I tried to keep my translation as close as possible to the original. Only at some points, I added some expaining comments which you can easily spot, cause I put them in [squared brackets] and marked them italic.

The actual story:
Once upon a time, there was a nice "MANAGER" from Sony Computer Entertainment Deutschland (SCED) who noticed after 6 years that the domain "granturismo.de" doesn't belong to SCED. At the beginning, he didn't even seem to be bothered that a private person cultivates the domain. In short sentences...

Dear Mr. Lisse,

I'm contacting you concerning your registered domain www.granturismo.de.

As an online manager at Sony Computer Entertainment Deutschland (SCED), one of my divisions is online marketing. As you know, SCED distributes the racing game series "Gran Turismo". The trademark "Gran Turismo" is a co-trademark of our subsidiary company Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.. The index of goods does also contain merchandising like clothing. The [GT] logo is a trademark as well. As being accepted by current adjudication, the use of a trademark of another person than the owner is the infringement of a trademark.

Due to the fact that I am contacting you personally instead of through a lawyer, you can see that I am trying to open a dialogue with out to find out in which way we can support your activities and/or how we can alter your offerings, so that both sides can live with it.

I'm a big GT-fan for myself, and we're thrilled by the enthusiasm you run your community and your website with. That's why I have a joint meeting in mind here at Neu-Isenburg, where we can a) get to know each other and b) think about how to archieve what we want to archieve together.

Possibly, we can talk about how you can support us to get the visitors of your website to notice the official GT-sites (e.g. through establishing a visible slot on granturismo.de for promotion of official minisites, events etc.). In addition, I'd like to discuss the options on putting up a GT-shop (http://www.equisto.de/perl/store/store.pl?store_id=gtrp). At this point, we need to talk about "usage of the GT logo". On the other hand, we should discuss how SCED can support you and your community in the future (e.g. official screenshots, infos, lotteries for invitations to events or the like).

You can contact me at any time through the e-mail-addy jan_keller@scee.net or the denoted telephone number. I'm looking forward to your reply.

Best regards

Jan Keller
online manager SCED

This thing sounds reasonable. What I did first is take the shop offline. I only opened it in the first place because the Sony guys couldn't get this rolling anyway, each sold shirt delivered the the tremendous amount of 1 Euro to me. Unfortunately this didn't make me the millionaire I advertised to become on the website.

In short, I made an appointment with that guy to drop by at Neu-Isenburg. That happened at the end of april [2005].

But then, this:

Dear Mr. Lisse,

I am contacting you again concerning your registered domain www.granturismo.de.

We sent a signal to you that we are interested in an active, positive collaboration with you. For that, the framework needs to be right though.

It came to me that you, with your domain www.granturismo.de, are some kind of sponsor to the "first official german Gran Turismo 4-championship" in line with the Best Players Cup 2. I am referring to the flyer of that event, see page 14.

Until now, we perceived you as a "community". But the stated communication goes one step too far for us. You are advertising, using our trademarks. Our customers can not discern between "fan projects" and official offers anymore. Our trademark rights have been harmed massively. Additionally, I am surprised there's been no coordination with us - that way, you wouldn't have made us face accomplished facts. I do not see - also after internal discussion with the responsible product manager - a further basis for a cooperation between SCED and you.

First of all, I cancel our meeting at monday.

We can not grant you any rights for using the trademark Gran Turismo. Therefor, I'd like to resolve with you in written form how you will pass on the following domains to us quickly and secure the transaction:

- www.granturismo.de
- http://www.gt4.de
- http://www.granturismo3.de
- http://www.granturismo4.de

We are willing to give you some time to point your visitors to a new domain (e.g. www.racingpoint.de). In this period of time, you also get the opportunity to modify your website, so that an infringement of a trademark through the use of our logo is not given anymore.

I'm not fixed to a specific transit time - is a transaction and a change up to june 6th realistic? I need a binding statement of yours on this until wednesday of next week (27/04/2005)

We reserve legal measures concerning this affair.

Thank you for your understanding,

Jan Keller
online manager SCED

What? Sponsor of the Best Players Cup? What the ...?!?!?!

Indeed, I can not deny some engangement of mine in the Best Players Cup. At one of our [Gran Turismo] challenges, one of the participants brought the "inventor" of the BPC events with him, who gazed at the goings and asked me if I wanted to coach the Best Players Cup, concerning GT4, with a database and a race plan. Why should I say no?
It would be in Munich, but there's little I woudln't do for my hobby. We never talked about money, and I'd have declined it anyway. Accomodation and food would be ok, but money for fun?

So, I setup the database and a time plan for the Best Players Cup 2, cancelled my attendance later due to the fact stated above. The reason for this whole thing came to me when I held the flyer in my hands.

Aha….! That BPC cretin used the GTRP logo, which is no problem actually, but gets one with the sentence ... GT Racing Point presents ... oh boy!

The first thing I did was - nothing ... I won't answer on receivables like that by e-mail anyway.

At some day in July, I got this e-mail:

Hello Mr. Lisse,

our domain-licensee Pironet unfortunately tried to transfer the discussed domains one week too early. Therefor, the transfer failed. I hope that this didn't get you in any trouble.

Referring to your fax from the 27th of April 2005 and the question of allowance: there won't be any. I see no reason for this: the domains helped you to build a great community. We don't take it from you, and as I can see, it still is very busy. That's the way it should be! In the end, your offerings can persist at www.gtracingpoint.de or similar in the same way (for that reason, I offered the transit time of 7 weeks). Additionally, you gain the advantage of judicial security.

We'll try to transfer the domains again on the 13th of June 2005. Should you need one or two more weeks for preparation, just let me know. But I need an exact date.

Best regards,

Jan Keller
online manager SCED

When I read this, I had to rofl a bit just like our smily (

).

Oh man, MANAGER, come to think if you are up to the job. You don't transfer domains because you think you have a legal claim on the letters. You buy or register domains as long as they are free, or you sue for them with a lawyer. They won't buy, obviously, it ain't free either ... down to the lawyer then.
Of course, I didn't want to be beaten so quickly. The 6 years I put into granturismo.de and my free support should be worth a bit more than being pushed out of the game like this.

One day, I found the first letter of a SCED lawyer in my mailbox. Unfortunately, I gave it to Ringohiro [GTRP mod] and therefor can't quote from it, but it's not necessary either, cause you don't need to see any of that paragraph babble.

Long story short, the SCED guys wanted the domains, for free and within one week. Boy, they are in a hurry. As this was a reminder, I knew I should react on it, or I'd lose before the game had begun.
A female lawyer [] assigned by me found out that the actual words "Gran Turismo" were registered by Sony only in 2003, but I registered the domain in 1999, so I have the legal rights for a longer time. After the event it also showed that the old cronys were wrong with the 'registered number', so they presented me another one. Veeeeeery professional fellas 👍

If a person knows about the situation, but tolerates it for a period of six years, it loses all its legal claims on it ... or similar you can read in a german code of law. Or in short, "lapse of time" are the magic words. To find an arrangement, my lawyer offers a financial compensation.

Declined ... who didn't see that coming?

After some phonecalls between the lawyers, mine offered a financial compensation in the form of a charitable donation.

Declined.

After some expensive letters from my lawyer and some hefty sabre-rattling, I agreed to transfer the domains. The reason is obvious ... SCED has the hell of a lot more money than I have, and after I'd supposedly win the first slugfest, another hearing would be exorbitant for me.

Now, it was down to some articles. SCED made the first step with some terms:

1. Mr. Lisse obliges to transfer the domains granturismo.de, granturismo3.de, granturismo4.de as well as gt4.de to Sony. For that purpose, Mr. Lisse will do anything that is necessary from his side to transfer the domains granturismo.de, granturismo3.de, granturismo4.de as well as gt4.de, especially the acceptance of the provider change for the domains granturismo.de, granturismo3.de, granturismo4.de as well as gt4.de, through signing the blanks attached as appendix 1 and 2. [what a sentence! Now I'm blind! ]

2. Sony obliges to deliver the Playstation-newsletter until the 31st of december 2005, indicating a link and stating that the content of the domains granturismo.de, granturismo3.de, granturismo4.de as well as gt4.de is to be found unter the above indicated link.[my god, I can't even translate this properly! ]

3. Sony obliges for at least one month, unter the category NEWS on www.playstation.de, to post the information that the contents of the domains granturismo.de, granturismo3.de, granturismo4.de as well as gt4.de are to be found on another website owned by Mr.Lisse, accompanied by a link to that website.

4. Sony abandons [all hope! ... just kidding!] the right on assertion of any amends against Mr. Lisse for using the words "Gran Turismo".

5. Both parties oblige to mutual good conduct. Neither will Sony, nor will Mr. Lisse make any negative statements about the other party on the website or openly. Additionally, Mr. Lisse closes the chatroom-thread "GT Racing Point wird von Sony verklagt". [The equivalent of this one at the GTRP]

No way ... no closing threads, and they can forget about the newsletter also - who reads newsletters anyway? No, gentlemen, not this way!
In the end, we agreed on item 1 and 4, as well as them paying a part of my lawyer fees.

That's the end of the story about granturismo.de & co.

As a finishing assertion, I'd like to add the following. I never was after the money for the domains, I don't care at all. It was just about the way this went, like doing nothing for the Gran Turismo users for years, and then mount a campaign like you invented the internet. Granted, I didn't invent it either, I just started using it earlier than those guys.

Furthermore, I give you a link where you can thank this guy. He actually invites you to, so he won't resist. But please concern, when choosing your words, that he also was a footman of Sony that only followed orders.

http://www.jankeller.com/content/blog/archives/144

[the END]

That's it! I hope you had fun reading, and feel welcome to add comments. But please, be polite! 👍

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[Pebb]

You cannot fight the money of Sony, and if they have copyright on a logo. Then you cannot use it with out there permission, since PD created it and are the creators of GT series.

Plus since PD is supported by Sony, and owned by them. Then you must ask the owners of PD first.