GM to drop Chevrolet in Europe to focus on Opel.

[SagarisGTB]

Full development costs going into Opel/Vauxhall products isn't just a win for Europeans, it's a big win for us Americans, too. That means that GM won't be wasting development dollars developing several cars on the same platform all meant to do different things. Definitely expect an improvement with the next-generation Chevrolet small cars, and I'd definitely expect more product overlaps between Buick and Opel in the US going forward.

I don't follow. GM Korea will still be getting their money to develop cars for emerging markets and probably NA as well. The current range of small Chevrolets (Sonic, Spark, Cruze) are fully or partially developed out of GM Korea, why would you expect any different with the next batch?

Is GM going to bring Chevrolet to Australia or are they ditching the Australian market altogether?

I would expect the Holden badge to stay on. GM are shutting down Holden's development facilities and factories, I wager Australia will still get GM world cars badged as Holdens. It'll be similar to the situation with Vauxhall (which are mostly re-badged Opels). It would be absolutely idiotic for GM to drop Holden completely and try to replace them with brands Australians aren't familiar with.

 

[YSSMAN]

I don't follow. GM Korea will still be getting their money to develop cars for emerging markets and probably NA as well. The current range of small Chevrolets (Sonic, Spark, Cruze) are fully or partially developed out of GM Korea, why would you expect any different with the next batch?

It has been my understanding that GM has already begun to shift development away from GM Korea on the successors to most of the current small cars. The Delta II successor (not sure if they're calling it Delta III or D2ux) was developed almost in it's entirety by Opel. I believe the Gamma successor will be largely developed by GM Europe and North America as well. Absolutely nothing against the current cars, GM Korea did a pretty good job doing their development. But, assuming GM matches the "One Ford" policy going on over in Dearborn, I'm guessing that development for their larger markets will eventually go to the teams that will be selling most of them.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

[quote="YSSMAN, post: 9065320, member: 54459]

Both the Malibu and the Impala get pretty good fuel economy, averages usually range between 24-27 MPG (10-11.5 100km/l)
[/quote]

I don't know which engines those two are equipped with, but 10-11.5 l/100km is considered terrible in germany. Petrol is very expensive over here (yesterday I saw 1,60€/l), Diesel is roughly 0.15€ cheaper, so Diesel is the way to go for many people. I don't think those cars could compete with Audi's/VW's doing 5 l/100k with such a fuel economy. Also, when it comes to cars, many people here are borderline racist against anything outside of germany, so I guess american cars would still carry the stigma of heavy, high fuel usage cars (same as japanese cars being called "cheap rice boxes") even if it were wrong.

For the german market atleast, its good to focus on Opel.

edit: Oh sorry, didn't knew fuel usage was calculated differently in US^^

 

[YSSMAN]

edit: Oh sorry, didn't knew fuel usage was calculated differently in US^^

The testing procedures for most of Europe, as I understand it, are woefully optimistic. The American EPA estimates are normally pretty pessimistic, and are quite easy to exceed. I'll throw in a comparison here of some full-size, 300 BHP models from Germany against the "everyman" Chevrolet Impala with it's 300 BHP V6.

2014 Chevrolet Impala LT (3.6L V6): 19 City - 29 Highway, 24 MPG combined - 10.2 L/100KM

2014 Mercedes-Benz E350 (3.5L V6): 21 City - 30 Highway, 25.5 MPG combined - 9.2 L/100KM

2014 BMW 535i (3.0L I6, turbocharged): 20 City - 30 Highway, 25 MPG combined - 9.4 L/100KM

2014 Audi A6 3.0T (3.0L V6, turbocharged): 18 City - 27 Highway, 22.5 MPG combined - 10.4 L/100KM​

Based on our testing in the US, it's all roughly the same with cars this size. You can change most of that pretty quick by adding all-wheel-drive, or in the case of the Germans, opting for the diesel, but when you're considering that the Impala is more than $20,000 less than the Germans, it isn't exactly a fair competition. Keep in mind, of course, the Impala has perennially been one of the best-selling cars in the US.

Keep in mind, also, diesel fuel is usually more expensive in the US, so it hasn't entirely set our world on fire. Although diesel Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz models have been selling well for decades, it wasn't up until a few years ago that BMW and Audi got involved, and only just this year did GM offer a diesel version of the Chevrolet Cruze. Of course, GM sells the Cruze Diesel as a substantially upmarket model compared to the others - Volkswagen does the same with their TDI models. Mercedes, however, is the first to start offering diesel as a basic option. Hopefully that is something that will begin to change in the future.

 

[BKGlover]

GM and Olds also killed the diesel cars in the US in the late 70's, something only Volvo and MB seemed to defy, which hadn't helped up until mid-late 2000s, when all fuel prices shot up and diesel went higher than unleaded for the first time in my life (24 Years). I'll leave that for another discussion though.

Those EPA estimates are still optimistic from what I've seen. Maybe it's because they don't go easy on the throttle, but the only time my parents have gotten 20+ from their vehicles is speeding on the interstate (80+, do not take as advise), and my moms 08 Tahoe regularly gets about 12 in town. Bluntly, I've never seen or heard anyone hit EPA estimates regularly. Once, maybe, but never regularly.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

@YSSMAN thanks for the clarification. Yeah, the european system is way to optimistic, IIRC they use accelerations low as 1 m/s^2 to get that numbers and I can imagine manufacturers sending cars with optimizied engine mappings for those tests.

I think its dishonest, barely anyone will ever reach those 4l numbers, but thanks to the internet there are websites where we can share real numbers.

And yes... German cars are way to expensive. A ****ing A250 costs 36k € in germany. A frigging A Class without any luxury stuff in it. I can imagine MBs and BMWs really being worth the premium price tage 30 years ago, but in todays age a C class does barely anything better than its competitors from Ford/Toyota, is less reliable and has high service costs too.

 

[Slash]

GM and Olds also killed the diesel cars in the US in the late 70's, something only Volvo and MB seemed to defy, which hadn't helped up until mid-late 2000s, when all fuel prices shot up and diesel went higher than unleaded for the first time in my life (24 Years). I'll leave that for another discussion though.

Those EPA estimates are still optimistic from what I've seen. Maybe it's because they don't go easy on the throttle, but the only time my parents have gotten 20+ from their vehicles is speeding on the interstate (80+, do not take as advise), and my moms 08 Tahoe regularly gets about 12 in town. Bluntly, I've never seen or heard anyone hit EPA estimates regularly. Once, maybe, but never regularly.

I basically had this conversation the other day with someone, only to get reamed a new one because I apparently didn't know what I was talking about.

 

[BKGlover]

Hey, I may be wrong, @Slashfan , but until someone comes forward and states otherwise that's all I can go on. I know the way people drive is a big part of it too, but I need to see or hear someone make the statement that they hit those numbers regularly without hyper-miling.

 

[Slash]

@BKGlover

Exactly, that's basically what I was saying when I got ripped on. I was told I needed to get off my high horse and step into reality.

Um, what?

 

[YSSMAN]

GM and Olds also killed the diesel cars in the US in the late 70's, something only Volvo and MB seemed to defy

Bad diesel engines were just bad, there isn't any way around it. I don't know if a lot of people outside the US understand how bad it was, and how it utterly decimated the idea of a diesel-powered car in the US for 30 years. Sure, Mercedes and Volkswagen were able to keep (and grow) their marketshare slightly, but we still haven't recovered from the idea of diesel-powered Chevrolet Malibus and Ford Fusions to this day.

Bluntly, I've never seen or heard anyone hit EPA estimates regularly. Once, maybe, but never regularly.

Strange... I regularly best the EPA quotes on the cars I've owned, and that the family has owned, often by 3+ MPG each fillup. Your mileage will vary, of course, but mostly country driving without frequent stops helps it significantly.

 

[BKGlover]

That does help a lot. I've also heard that atmospheric conditions play a part as well. Good example, my parents had an 2004 Suburban we took on vacation to Colorado. I don't know why, but performance never lacked and we got better mileage in the mountain air than we ever did here in Texas, and that includes a trip down the interstate going about 90.

 

[homeforsummer]

In the several years I've been writing about fuel economy, I've found that by and large, EPA ratings are pretty much what you can expect from the car in general use.

Some fall woefully short of course but those cars don't usually keep their excessive window stickers for long, since some lawsuit or other would pull them back down. See Hyundai/Kia/Ford in recent years, all of which have had to revise their official ratings after customers couldn't get anywhere near them.

I've also driven several vehicles over here that are also sold in the U.S. Without fail, I'll usually get pretty close/beat EPA figures, but predictably miss out on the more optimistic European ones by a much greater distance.

It's just down to how the tests are arranged. EPA tests are a third to a half longer than European economy tests (meaning engines spend more of their time at optimum temperatures), they're typically done at higher average speeds, and there's a lot less stopping.

This does mean that if you live in the middle of a city you may still do worse than official city ratings, as you likely spend a lot more time stopping and starting. Incidentally, EPA tests don't show the benefits of stop-start technology anywhere near as much as European tests do for this very reason - it's simply activated far less on EPA tests. At the same time, all the VW diesel fanboys are always quick to point out that they beat EPA highway ratings by 10 mpg or so since those engines are at their best doing a constant speed for miles upon end.

Driving style is of course a factor, but you certainly don't need to hypermile. You just need to drive "properly" - observe traffic conditions, don't use excessive speed and don't accelerate or brake unnecessarily. Hypermiling goes right off the other end of the scale and that's when you get people in full-size trucks miraculously getting into the 20s or people in a Prius getting 75 mpg compared to a 50 mpg EPA rating. For the record, I don't condone hypermiling as extreme techniques can be disruptive or dangerous.

 

[BKGlover]

Do they test on the public roads, or do they run them in controlled conditions? I've wondered for years but never seen a straight-forward answer.

BACK ON OPEL: I was wondering this as well, does Opel/Vauxhall have new stuff coming down the pipeline?

 

[homeforsummer]

Do they test on the public roads, or do they run them in controlled conditions? I've wondered for years but never seen a straight-forward answer.

Do you mean to record the official figures?

As that's always in controlled conditions, since it's the only way to do the test fairly. It just happens that the EPA's testing conditions much better match reality than do the European tests.

While I was out in the U.S. in September I actually beat Hyundai's figures for the Elantra quite comfortably. High 30s overall and as much as mid 40s on the highway, against official numbers of 32 combined and 38 highway. No special techniques required, though the driving was probably more consistent than the tests. Goes to show how easy they can be to beat though - and Hyundai was one of the automakers who actually had their numbers bumped down after an EPA investigation. Again, for people stuck in city driving most of the time I'd expect to miss out on the official city figures, but probably not by much.

As for your Opel question, the answer is no, to my knowledge. Maybe a new Corsa subcompact, but I've heard surprisingly little about it. I think to an extent they were pinning hopes on the Adam, but I've not seen many of those on the roads.

 

[BKGlover]

Thank you.

 

[YSSMAN]

As for your Opel question, the answer is no, to my knowledge. Maybe a new Corsa subcompact, but I've heard surprisingly little about it. I think to an extent they were pinning hopes on the Adam, but I've not seen many of those on the roads.

Aren't the Corsa and Agila the two oldest models in the lineup? I'd imagine that we're a bit overdue for an Insignia refresh as well.

I'm guessing the Monza is the only thing on the plate that might happen. But, I'm guessing that'll depend quite a bit on whether or not they could market it in Australia as a Holden or in North America/China as a Buick.

 

[homeforsummer]

Until you mentioned the Agila I'd literally forgotten it existed. But you're right, those two are the oldest overall.

Surprisingly the very newest Corsas really aren't that bad. Vauxhall doesn't lend cars to me but I've ended up with a Corsa a couple of times when renting, and engines aside, which are awful (and really kill the Adam too), they've finally dragged it up to being a decent product. I drove the current shape car maybe four years ago (shortly after my MX5 was stolen, in fact) and found it utterly wretched, but the last few times they've been pretty passable.

Still, there's absolutely zero reason to buy one over a Fiesta or a new Clio or 208 or Rio or Yaris or umpteen other cars in that class, so it really needs replacing.

Vauxhall has very recently revised the Insignia over here, so that's got a few years in it yet. But again, little reason to buy one with Mondeos and Mazda 6s about. Same goes for the Astra - thoroughly competent, but simply not competitive with several other cars in its class.

A fellow journo wrote an amusing piece recently on being banned from driving Vauxhalls, because he slated them in a previous article and the company threw all its toys from the pram. Was even funnier seeing all the comments from other journalists along the lines of "I bet you're really disappointed..."

 

[SciroccoRich]

Thank god for that. They make truely aweful cars.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'd like to see the Adam show up in the States as a cheap Buick. But, the Buick brass already want me to buy a Verano (ie, Astra sedan), so... That won't be happening.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

If they bring Monza back, they should seriously consider a lower class 2 seater, or maybe 2+2 and call it Manta and make it BRZ/MX-5 competitor performance/price wise. But, that would be logical, and most big companies and governments are allergic to logical things.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd like to see the Adam show up in the States as a cheap Buick. But, the Buick brass already want me to buy a Verano (ie, Astra sedan), so... That won't be happening.

I'm not sure you really do. It's a hateful little thing. Given a thin veil of sportiness with overly-darty steering and a stiff ride but none of the engines to back it up. The chances of them dropping in something with the 150hp or so it needs to drag it somewhere towards fun are very slim.

 

[YSSMAN]

We haven't seen much of the car other than a few mentions here and there. On paper, it sounds quite good - it would certainly give GM a proper way to take away some sales of the Fiat 500 and Mini Cooper here. Then again, it's a city car, and it's a nearly non-existent market.

Give it to the guys who did the Sonic's steering rack, and let them shoe horn that same 1.4T under the hood, make sure we get that shorter ratio gearbox from the Sonic RS. That'd be an interesting thing to toss on the market against our version of the Abarth.

 

[Dennisch]

I'm not sure you really do. It's a hateful little thing. Given a thin veil of sportiness with overly-darty steering and a stiff ride but none of the engines to back it up. The chances of them dropping in something with the 150hp or so it needs to drag it somewhere towards fun are very slim.

Adam OPC would be nice.
I like how the Adam looks, when the proper paint scheme is applied. And of course the return of the Manta could boost sales. But I don't see that happening unless the other manufacturers start to build succesfull BRZ/FRS competitors.