Going back to controller

[Johnnn]

Not looking to appear adversarial, but I don't understand any of this. I have heard a few people talk about the same thing, but I don't believe it's true, because it's just been assertions.
Is there some evidence of steering assistance from the controllers?

What evidence? You can feel it when you steer on a pad. But I can tell you exactly what I can feel but maybe it's not everything.

Helpers:
1. normal friction assist for steering (almost every game has it), so you can't steer precisely because game helps you with maximum grip on front wheels
2. stabilization of the whole car, you can test it with rear heavy cars and wild turns left and right, car will be completely fine with very small input - impossible
3. counter-steering assist, just slide and counter steer with full-lock, it couldn't work, counter-steering must be very gentle and precise

 

[sturk0167]

I don't really notice any of that. You could be right.
I've been using controller for a really long time, and typically pounding beers when I race.

 

[Abyss1]

I don't really notice any of that. You could be right.
I've been using controller for a really long time, and typically pounding beers when I race.

Since its launch I used the controller, and finally got fed up with the limits of the the thumb stick for gas pedal.
coughed up the cash for the Fanatec csl deal on black friday....I got the wheel / pedal stand for another $100 and gotta say its a brand new experience and with the beers....even more so

 

[Norrin Radd]

Not looking to appear adversarial, but I don't understand any of this. I have heard a few people talk about the same thing, but I don't believe it's true, because it's just been assertions.
Is there some evidence of steering assistance from the controllers?

Can't give any evidence and never used a wheel on this, but this game feels so much easier than older games. It's smoother and you don't go off all that easily. People better than me seem to think that the aids make controller about equal to wheel on this game when controller is a big disadvantage on most others. Personally I think there is something helping us controller players.

 

[Johnnn]

Can't give any evidence and never used a wheel on this, but this game feels so much easier than older games. It's smoother and you don't go off all that easily. People better than me seem to think that the aids make controller about equal to wheel on this game when controller is a big disadvantage on most others. Personally I think there is something helping us controller players.

It's not this game only, it was on PS3 too. With a wheel you fully drive the car, with a controller, you drive very stable something with some kind of control. It's not bad at all but after simulations it's very strange to play. Still, if you like Grid or F1 controls, it's very similar. Just the controlling of the car is very limited... in some perspective. Like I always wrote, try Motorsport 7 without assists and then GTS, you will see the problem.

 

[meekrab]

To me it seems the major thing GTSport does for controller users is dynamically expand and contract the range of possible steering input. With a wheel you always have full left to full right available even if you mostly just use about a half turn left and right, but if you push the DS4 stick all the way to one side at 100 mph you obviously don't get the full steering lock you get "turn as much as I have grip for, and then a little more and scrub the tires."

 

[Johnnn]

I discussed common helpers recently here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...0-on-xb1-ps4-pc.383864/page-137#post-13312657

But you are right your steering is limited to "right" zone only.

 

[JayRS200]

Johnnn I completely disagree with everything you have said. The pad doesn't really have any helpers. It's a great control mechanism for a racing game that PD has implemented very well and it feels great to use. Anyone starting out playing GT on a wheel or a pad without any experience of gaming with a pad or gaming or driving with a wheel, will no doubt have a similar learning curve with the same challenges to overcome. In fact I just let my sister have s go with my wheel for her first time ever and she showed steady improvement. She is a hardcore gamer on PS4 and PC but I can guarantee she would have been worse if she tried the pad. The wheel is very intuitive and that's why it became the norm for nearly all types of driving.

I've been a pad user for 90% of my GT life right through to still sometimes using a pad now and the only thing that the pad has over the wheel is that if someone prefers to make less effort physically.

 

[Johnnn]

@JayRS200, no problem, I like gamepad too. If you want to find out how much GT is assisted try Assetto Corsa or Project cars 2 without assists. My main problem is Motorsport is less assisted even if it's main competitor in many ways. If GT7 will be great the assists will be still big problems for me. It's not unplayable but it's not like driving the car. On the other hand, wheel should be completely different story, it's very hard because you really steer.

 

[NevilleNobody]

I have used both and to me 100% the controller is more stable but it is also, with the Dpad anyways, for more understeery. Esses are very tough and turn in, in general, is poor compared to the wheel . This is why tyre wear is so bad on a controller, the car is pushing against the front tyres relentlessly as the rear refuses to swing around.

In saying that, i don't feel like someone else is steering, maybe I should try my left hand so it feels like someone else is doing it

As mentioned before, I have driven daily for well over 25 years and I have some limited track time in an Alfa Giulia and a two day open wheel car (slower than Formula Ford) and I just found, with the T150 wheel and stock pedals, I had ABSOLUTELY NO FEEL AT ALL. Could not feel the front end push, could not feel the brake pressure, could not feel a dang thing. Now with the pad I can kinda accept that but I guess with a wheel it is so disconcerting as I am a real life driver. Steering lock was also a MASSIVE issue for me, the default is like 900 degrees or something which is just insanely long compared to a regular road car let alone a race car. I dialed it down to the lowest setting and it felt a lot better but a huge PITA on the T150 to always have to adjust it.

Then there's the seating issue, honestly to use a wheel I reakon i need a proper set up. An actual stable rig, high wheel and high end pedals and then i'll be fine but half @rsing it just does not work for me at all.

I tried for a month, maybe 500 laps with a wheel and never got within a million miles of a clean lap.

 

[JayRS200]

@JayRS200, no problem, I like gamepad too. If you want to find out how much GT is assisted try Assetto Corsa or Project cars 2 without assists. My main problem is Motorsport is less assisted even if it's main competitor in many ways. If GT7 will be great the assists will be still big problems for me. It's not unplayable but it's not like driving the car. On the other hand, wheel should be completely different story, it's very hard because you really steer.

I shouldn't really be replying to you as you've made very little sense through this whole thread. But as I created the thread and have been a fairly recent wheel user I feel it's only right to put this to bed.

If I tried any other game with a pad I would eventually get used to it. Give a noob GT or ACC and a pad or a wheel and they will be equally as bad on both.

As NevilleNobody just said, GT has a lot of understeer with wheel and pad which is a safe balance. Nothing at all to do with the pad being given any "helpers". I remember at launch and for some time after how difficult the NSX Gr3, Lambo Gr3 and even the NSX Gr4 were difficult with a pad.

I don't know what your agenda is but you're wrong.

 

[Johnnn]

It's OK if you don't know the game. I just wanted to help here. Wheel is not assisted and pad is very assisted (if everything off). It's not easy to drive a car on a wheel and it's even harder on a pad.

 

[JoeDaSnow]

I've always used the controller playing this game.

 

[The_Tullster]

The only user settable aid available to controller that's not available to wheel users in GTS is "Sensitivity". At low or negative settings this averages the steering input over a short period of time, reducing the impact of sudden controller inputs (or dodgy controllers with twitchy inputs). At high settings, steering is more direct.

Some games apply controller inputs as "force applied to virtual controls" rather directly controlling the virtual controls. Except stopped or at very low speeds, in cars (with no power steering) you need more force for a given steering deflection at high speed than you need at low speed.
GTS definitely links the virtual wheel position directly to the position of a wheel user's wheel, but it is possible (and I'm only speculating here) that a controller uses the force model instead of the one to one position correspondence model. This may account for some of the perceived differences between controller and wheel.

 

[Johnnn]

Input is OK, it's very very precise but you have car stabilization so you can do nasty stuff to the car precisely but the game corrects your car after it. So you don't actually drive too much because of this. It's like F1 game, you can do very strange stuff to the car but the game helps you a lot. It's not cool.

 

[The_Tullster]

Input is OK, it's very very precise but you have car stabilization so you can do nasty stuff to the car precisely but the game corrects your car after it. So you don't actually drive too much because of this. It's like F1 game, you can do very strange stuff to the car but the game helps you a lot. It's not cool.

What is your sensitivity set at when using controller?

 

[Johnnn]

What is your sensitivity set at when using controller?

I think maximum, because it's very precise then.

 

[The_Tullster]

Average pad user wont even have changed it from default. This means they can get away with fairly aggressive steering inputs.
Even with max sensitivity cars don't seem to turn the front wheels to full lock at high speed when using pad. This is what makes me suspect that pad inputs control force applied to the steering wheel rather than actual wheel position.

 

[Johnnn]

I wrote here about what aids are there. You can't do full locks in most games at your will. I think it's possible only in PC1, PC2, AC1 and ACC. GTS is full of aids and that's the reason why it's so easy. I know, it's not easy for beginners but it's much harder to steer on a pad than a wheel.

 

[Veinz]

It's OK if you don't know the game. I just wanted to help here. Wheel is not assisted and pad is very assisted (if everything off). It's not easy to drive a car on a wheel and it's even harder on a pad.

There is definitely a hidden assist within the steering that makes the cars easier to control on ds4. I'll use Forza Motorsport as an example of what kind of assist this, because it can be turned off in that game by switching to sim steering. From the wiki.

Normal: Gives the driver full control over steering, but dampens certain physical effects to make driving easier. The driver can steer his/her car in any direction whatsoever, making it easier to drive through a racing line better than the game's suggested racing line.

Simulation: Eliminates any damping and steering speed assistance for a more realistic effect, making counter-steering much quicker. Please note this mode is difficult with a controller and is recommended for advanced drivers. Unless the player is an advanced driver, he/she will experience spinouts very often.

It may not be as intense in GTS as it is in FM, but it's definitely there. Pretty much all racing game developers do this for controllers.

 

[Johnnn]

There is definitely a hidden assist within the steering that makes the cars easier to control on ds4. I'll use Forza Motorsport as an example of what kind of assist this, because it can be turned off in that game by switching to sim steering. From the wiki.

Normal: Gives the driver full control over steering, but dampens certain physical effects to make driving easier. The driver can steer his/her car in any direction whatsoever, making it easier to drive through a racing line better than the game's suggested racing line.

Simulation: Eliminates any damping and steering speed assistance for a more realistic effect, making counter-steering much quicker. Please note this mode is difficult with a controller and is recommended for advanced drivers. Unless the player is an advanced driver, he/she will experience spinouts very often.

It may not be as intense in GTS as it is in FM, but it's definitely there. Pretty much all racing game developers do this for controllers.

I could use Motorsport too because it has less assists than anything else normal.

Normal steering is like GTS steering.

Simulation is better because of counter-steering but still has grip guard. You can't steer at your will because your outer tires grip is probably checked for maximum steering angle. It feels a bit strange because you can't steer too much a you don't steer on your own if you use full-locks. But you can use full-locks because it means maximum grip on outer tires. It's big advantage against wheel users.

Overall, GTS has 3 main assists and Motorsport only one. If you like steering and don't like full steering Motorsport is the only way. GTS is too much assisted and it's very far from driving. If somebody wants direct comparison, try ACC, it has GTS steering helper by default called steer helper. If you disable it you have good old AC1 steering.

 

[Junkman55]

I am not tying to hurt anybody’s feelings if you want to play a racing game driving with a chase cam you do not need a wheel and pedals and you will be as good as anyone else playing. Now if you want more than playing a game you need to be looking at building a simulator. The bare minimum will be about $500 and If anyone with a T-80 complaining he can do better with his DS4 controller he is absolutely RIGHT!

 

[JayRS200]

Well I've been back on the controller for a while now and enjoying the game more. I like the chilled aspect of using the pad better. My last race with the wheel was with a Gr2 Honda NSX (the older version) at a DTS daily race and got a win. I could control the pointy MR cars better with the wheel and that's 1 thing I'll miss as I gravitate to pointy cars more as I hate the understeer in GTS. The Lambo Gr3 was beautiful with wheel too. Also the Lambo and Audi Gr3 were great in the wet. It would take me thousands of miles of practice with a pad to be as good in the wet with those cars with a wheel.

@Johnnn... You're way off the mark buddy and come across a kinda low IQish troll. I know these games more than you'll ever know, and now I have recent experience of going from pad to wheel back to pad, I can safely say again there are no assists. If anything, the pad still has a tyre wear handicap, how much worse depending on how it's utilised.

 

[BigSarj]

After going through starting from t80, my take now is load cell brake is mandatory for myself, as is a powerful enough belt driven wheel (t300 minimum)
I hope though that controller support will be stellar.
I prefer wheel, but the better controller works the bigger the playerbase.
It’s already good so bring on the OP haptic triggers!
Nobody good cares what anyone uses, they just want fun competition.
For me it’s a shame the level of cost to get really good wheel pedals/large screen/good setup close.
I think GTS should have generalized reccomendations for setups. If you are inventive you don’t need to spend a lot imo but I mean you gotta spend SOME. I wasn’t happy with lower end wheels at all, but once I invested in Fanatec (used even)
and setup my stuff in a good position for me my enjoyment went through the roof.
Jmo the bigger screen the better on ANY control method.

I also set myself up in front of a big screen and often use cockpit view for qualifying (I'll race with it one day) but I wonder if, outside of immersion, it is truly better. It's the consensus that in shooters, a smaller monitor is better than large so you can see the whole screen or because your eyes have to travel less from one point of intel to another. I'm curious as to what people think of this in regards to racing games.
But as I typed this out, I realized that the dream for so many, and what some car manufacturers use, is absolutely massive screens that encompass an entire room.

 

[tomaso777]

I also set myself up in front of a big screen and often use cockpit view for qualifying (I'll race with it one day) but I wonder if, outside of immersion, it is truly better. It's the consensus that in shooters, a smaller monitor is better than large so you can see the whole screen or because your eyes have to travel less from one point of intel to another. I'm curious as to what people think of this in regards to racing games.
But as I typed this out, I realized that the dream for so many, and what some car manufacturers use, is absolutely massive screens that encompass an entire room.

A big screen is like being there. More realistic. A small screen might tend to direct quick turns when not warranted. I use bumper cam. The rear view is great and if you adjust sound settings you can hear other cars approaching. For trial times, I use the cam that shows the hood.

 

[Johnnn]

@Johnnn... You're way off the mark buddy and come across a kinda low IQish troll. I know these games more than you'll ever know, and now I have recent experience of going from pad to wheel back to pad, I can safely say again there are no assists. If anything, the pad still has a tyre wear handicap, how much worse depending on how it's utilised.

I don't play GT too much but it's very clear how much is pad assisted. It's like playing some arcade.

You can easily try normal games without big helpers. Try ACC with steer assist, which is very similar to GT assists, and then disable it. Without steer assist you have much more direct input like you should. GT is like Grid with better physics and tighter controls.

 

[VBR]

Has anyone been a pad player then went to wheel for a while then went back to pad?

No, but I was a wheel user who went back to the pad for a while during 2018 & then went back to the wheel:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...acer-starting-to-have-fun-in-gt-sport.379842/

I've since gone back to the wheel (Fanatec CSR) as I feel that the FFB has improved over the last two years to the point that it's enjoyable again for me.

 

[gkgamer]

I don't play GT too much but it's very clear how much is pad assisted. It's like playing some arcade.

You can easily try normal games without big helpers. Try ACC with steer assist, which is very similar to GT assists, and then disable it. Without steer assist you have much more direct input like you should. GT is like Grid with better physics and tighter controls.

Hello fellow stubborn gamer, could you please share your kudosprime with us? I have a theory about your Quichottesque war on undocumented pad assists...

 

[Pigems]

I am not tying to hurt anybody’s feelings if you want to play a racing game driving with a chase cam you do not need a wheel and pedals and you will be as good as anyone else playing. Now if you want more than playing a game you need to be looking at building a simulator. The bare minimum will be about $500 and If anyone with a T-80 complaining he can do better with his DS4 controller he is absolutely RIGHT!

Not trying to hurt anyone’s feeling but your input device doesn’t make your game a simulator, nor does the camera view you use, the software/game itself does. Playing ACC with a pad is more simulation than playing GT with a wheel. Because ACC is more of a sim, the input device has no bearing on sim/game. Surely a true simulator wouldn’t need to have gamey things like prize cars, credits and XP.

 

[El_Beardo]

The bare minimum will be about $500

Are you high?