Going for a gap OR divebomb?

[breeminator]

Braking markers are really second priority to where other cars are on track in real time during a race. I base my braking points off where I am and other cars around me at that point in time are

I posted this earlier in the thread, it's a point just after where the Supra has started braking. There is no reason at all for the Supra to think it needs to brake early at this point, as there is no reason for it to be catching the Megane during that corner. At 7k, I doubt it was intentional by the Megane, as if they were skilled enough to do this, they wouldn't be at 7k, but at higher DRs people pull this kind of stunt to prevent the overtake on the main straight, by brake checking the car behind to force them off their line, ensuring they can't exit onto the main straight with a speed advantage.

 

[Vegard]

I'll remember this if I come up on anyone of you in the future. If I feel that you're going too slow I can just take a hot narrow entry and if I punt you off at the apex it's your own fault for going too slow. That's what you're arguing, yes?

 

[breeminator]

I'll remember this if I come up on anyone of you in the future. If I feel that you're going too slow I can just take a hot narrow entry and if I punt you off at the apex it's your own fault for going too slow. That's what you're arguing, yes?

If I inexplicably go 14mph slower through a corner than I have been doing, i.e. brake check you, then yes, feel free to punt me. The situation will never arise.

 

[wtrain77]

I'll remember this if I come up on anyone of you in the future. If I feel that you're going too slow I can just take a hot narrow entry and if I punt you off at the apex it's your own fault for going too slow. That's what you're arguing, yes?

To be clear, nobody is advocating or saying it is ok to do what you describe. Nobody should be punted off for going too slow.

The argument is two-fold. First, going too slow has consequences. Here, it forced a C driver into an unexpected situation. He needed to make a decision and make it quick: stay wide or go for a gap. When you force a C driver into a decision, it will usually not end well. Second, both cars share responsibility for this incident. To say the Megane did nothing wrong is not true.

 

[Spongeinside]

People keep forgetting that I was also taking a different line to avoid another car that was coming back on the track..

 

[NevilleNobody]

OK I clearly see the difference of opinion we have now. It comes down to intent on the Supra driver's part and our definitions of "dive bomb". You are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt where I (and it would appear more than 50% of people that voted) do not.

1) intent to hit the car in front really can't be established unless the driver comes forward and honestly answers the question.

2) My definition of "dive bomb". When a vehicle attempts a pass from a distance too far away that has little chance of success and more than likely will end in contact with the vehicle in front. A reckless pass with little or no regard to the vehicle in front. A dangerous pass with little chance of success. (*IF* damaged was on his race would also have ended. BTW this is how you fix the penalty system as well. Turn damage on)

Point one, we will never know. Point two, guilty as charged, a reckless overtake with little regard for consequences and the game's rules clearly befitted him in the long run :-(

This. All he had to do was stay on the racing line.

 

[Ashthebash]

I'll remember this if I come up on anyone of you in the future. If I feel that you're going too slow I can just take a hot narrow entry and if I punt you off at the apex it's your own fault for going too slow. That's what you're arguing, yes?

Other than the tiny fact that the Supra hasn't gone in 'hot', yeah go for it. You have a split second to make the decision as I go 20% slower than normal into a corner. You don't know which corner it'll be though, and you'll be taking it as you would normally expect to until I park my car in front of you. I will however have a mirror up and will probably see you coming so the contact could well be avoided - unless I just decide to take the apex despite you being there.

From what the OP has said, the driver of the Supra seems a bit of a dick but he hasn't done a great deal wrong for this particular incident.

There seems to be a popular view that if you're ahead going into a braking zone then you can take whatever line you like at whatever speed you like because it's "your" corner

Nah

Racing is dynamic, things happen and change all the time and you have to be ready for someone ahead making a mistake. Going into the braking zone, the Supra isn't close enough to attempt an overtake in normal circumstances, and doesn't attempt one, but the Megane just invites an overtake before blindly slamming the door after the Supra has accepted the invitation

People keep forgetting that I was also taking a different line to avoid another car that was coming back on the track..
View attachment 890724

You need a mirror on your car! Taking a different line is one thing but you still need to be aware of what's going on behind you (and maybe not so tentative about what's going on ahead - but that will come with practice).

As others have said, fair play for sharing, you have the right attitude to improve how you are on the track (Supra driver seems a nob!). Not every late move to the inside is a dive bomb though and many late moves that are perfectly legitimate rely on the car ahead seeing them coming to avoid a crash.

It's an ugly coming together, there's nothing dirty from either driver but it's very avoidable when the track there is so wide and I think if you do see him coming, the contact doesn't happen

This. All he had to do was stay on the racing line.

"After you sir, don't worry, you go as slow as you like, I'll make sure this Porsche behind me eases up and stays in line too so we can all have a jolly good drive around looking at the beautiful scenery and none of this racing nonsense with automobiles that bark louder than my dogs. I'll get Matilda to bring us some cheese and we'll have a spiffing picnic. Tally Ho!!"

 

[NSP525]

I still don't get the I race every lap at quali pace and brake late/on the fringe everywhere mentality. Sometimes preserving your opportunity to fight another day is the smart and respectable thing to do. Licking the stamp and sending it on every corner is not racing as much as it is bumper cars. To sum it all up the supra driver should maybe take a lesson from this Senna quote "To win a championship you need more than anything a very clear mind to understand exactly when is the moment to be aggressive, when is the moment to be calculative, when is the moment to give everything you have, when is the moment to hold everything you have for another opportunity. That’s the difference between winning and losing."

 

[Trone_Colby]

So by some of you, this would be a divebomb as well although I had no choice. The Mustang braked too early (M 175ish. M 150 is the normal braking point).

Full 1st clip


I guess I should have waited on the Mustang

 

[NSP525]

So by some of you, this would be a divebomb as well although I had no choice. The Mustang braked too early (M 175ish. M 150 is the normal braking point).

Full 1st clip


I guess I should have waited on the Mustang

The two situations are nowhere similar enough to compare as divebombs and frankly yours isn't because you overtook him due to numerous factors all adding up and you making the correct decision in that situation. Very nice overtake, you gained track position under braking and claimed the inside line, textbook. The only contact that comes from this is if the Mustang tries to turn in on you and that's not your fault anyways. Instead it looks like he's going very slow even the car behind you managed to follow you through the gap he was forced to leave you because you had established track position prior to corner turn in.

Could have all played out much differently if the Mustang decided to try a move up the lead cars inside and braked later but I doubt that would have resulted in any contact from you on them unless they both stuff it up on the apex going two wide.

Every situation is unique and requires its own unique decisions, there is no universal application for these situations. You have to adapt and capitalize when you can fairly and safely.

I still stand by my assessment that for how many lengths back the supra was he could have done more to avoid contact. I wouldn't really say divebomb but it was poor judgment forsure. He comes off the brakes momentarily mid braking as well, could of been the difference right there between avoiding and contact.

 

[wtrain77]

I still don't get the I race every lap at quali pace and brake late/on the fringe everywhere mentality. Sometimes preserving your opportunity to fight another day is the smart and respectable thing to do. Licking the stamp and sending it on every corner is not racing as much as it is bumper cars. To sum it all up the supra driver should maybe take a lesson from this Senna quote "To win a championship you need more than anything a very clear mind to understand exactly when is the moment to be aggressive, when is the moment to be calculative, when is the moment to give everything you have, when is the moment to hold everything you have for another opportunity. That’s the difference between winning and losing."

Are you suggesting the decision to start braking where the Supra did was too aggressive?

 

[NSP525]

Are you suggesting the decision to start braking where the Supra did was too aggressive?

From what the OP said the supras reply was it's more his attitude toward racing and what is acceptable that is the problem, he said he was going for a gap when in reality any driver wouldn't be expecting to overtake from that far back, he should have just explained that he wasn't expecting the op to be so slow there, coming across as arrogant earns you no respect from me. From what I can tell they both brake just after 100m board. The supra has 5 extra kph at point of braking which isn't a huge difference compared to the Megane but he lifts momentarily mid braking, IMO he could have done more to avoid contact in this situation without having to brake earlier. If he did brake 5m sooner he probably could've taken the better line without contacting the Megane and had better drive for the main straight and passed, I also understand he has a car behind him as well and doesn't want to concede to them either.

To try and place the majority of the blame on the OP tells me all I really need to know about that supra driver. He knows he can run that in quali and he is going to try it in the race with total disregard for what's happening in front of him, maybe with a better explanation I would have a different opinion but I call a spade a spade and that supra is a dirty driver even if this isn't a classic dive bomb.

 

[wtrain77]

From what the OP said the supras reply was it's more his attitude toward racing and what is acceptable that is the problem, he said he was going for a gap when in reality any driver wouldn't be expecting to overtake from that far back, he should have just explained that he wasn't expecting the op to be so slow there, coming across as arrogant earns you no respect from me. From what I can tell they both brake just after 100m board. The supra has 5 extra kph at point of braking which isn't a huge difference compared to the Megane but he lifts momentarily mid braking, IMO he could have done more to avoid contact in this situation without having to brake earlier. If he did brake 5m sooner he probably could've taken the better line without contacting the Megane and had better drive for the main straight and passed, I also understand he has a car behind him as well and doesn't want to concede to them either.

To try and place the majority of the blame on the OP tells me all I really need to know about that supra driver. He knows he can run that in quali and he is going to try it in the race with total disregard for what's happening in front of him, maybe with a better explanation I would have a different opinion but I call a spade a spade and that supra is a dirty driver even if this isn't a classic dive bomb.

What the Supra says and what he does are two separate things that should be judged independently. I am commenting only on the evidence provided by the video.

If you can accept his braking point is fine, which it clearly is, you have to accept that combined with the Megane's slow pace, the cars will eventually overlap. The Megane could have recognized there was a car approaching to the inside, he has a slow pace and stay to the outside instead of closing the door, he didn't. The Supra could have predicted the Megane was going to close the door and stay to the outside, he didn't. Their decisions would need to be coordinated to avoid a collision and unfortunately that didn't happen. Not a big surprise.

The Supra may very well be a dirty driver. I just don't know enough to label him as one because this is not an example of being dirty. Furthermore, blanket labeling any driver as being dirty based on a single incident is unfair and a mistake.

 

[Vegard]

I guess I should have waited on the Mustang

I mean, you did ignore the yellow flags.

 

[NSP525]

What the Supra says and what he does are two separate things that should be judged independently. I am commenting only on the evidence provided by the video.

If you can accept his braking point is fine, which it clearly is, you have to accept that combined with the Megane's slow pace, the cars will eventually overlap. The Megane could have recognized he has a slow pace and stay to the outside instead of closing the door, he didn't. The Supra could have predicted the Megane was going to close the door and stay to the outside, he didn't. Their decisions would need to be coordinated to avoid a collision and unfortunately that didn't happen. Not a big surprise.

The Supra may very well be a dirty driver. I just don't know enough to label him as one because this is not an example of being dirty. Furthermore, blanket labeling any driver as being dirty based on a single incident is unfair and a mistake.

Like I said I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he didn't come across like an arrogant nob. The more we analyze this we can agree that it unfolded in an odd way but the supra gains no respect from me with that explanation.

 

[fastone371]

So by some of you, this would be a divebomb as well although I had no choice. The Mustang braked too early (M 175ish. M 150 is the normal braking point).

Full 1st clip


I guess I should have waited on the Mustang

Not a dive bomb because you made it through without ramming the car you were passing.
Does the yellow flag mean "pass with caution"?

 

[vvise]

check out my sweet dive pass, back to back on the same driver 2 corners apart


warning: if you watch the video long enough there will probably be some swearing in it.