Good and Bad; Good and Evil

[Grand Prix]

I thought this might be an interesting area of discussion. If it has been done before, just lock it and carry on.

I'm interested to see what people think of the terms "Good", "Evil", and "Bad". Is Good and Evil absolute, and applies to every person in the world in the same way? Or is it relative to the nation or person at hand? Try to support your argument with more than just emotion, but facts and theories as well.





***Disclaimer: Purely emotional references to Nazi Germany/Adolf Hitler are completely inacceptable. Unless you can strongly support your reference to Nazi Germany/Adolf Hitler with facts, and go about it in a mature way, this topic will be closed.

 

[Famine]

Godwin's law gets quicker every thread...

 

[Grand Prix]

Godwin's law gets quicker every thread...

 

[James2097]

I'll fill in the yank's point of view, on their behalf.

United States of America=GOOD
Everyone else=BAD

James2097=EVIL

 

[Grand Prix]

So James, I guess you're in support of the quote "One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"? Then you agree that good and evil are relative depending on where you live, correct? For example, the Colonists in the American Revolution and the British Empire could have viewed each other as equally evil, with both thinking that they were good?

 

[Zardoz]

The concept of "good" and "evil" existing on their own as some sort of entities or forces is nothing more than a cop-out. This childish notion is merely a convenient out to excuse our very human behavior.

There is no such thing as "evil". There is only the nasty behaviour of we self-centered little piss-ant hominids.

The comedian Flip Wilson's great old line "The devil made me do it!" is a wry comment on our natural tendency to point fingers and divert blame away from ourselves: Don't blame us for what we do. It's that nasty evil force out there making us do it.

 

[Zrow]

I'll fill in the yank's point of view, on their behalf.

United States of America=GOOD
Everyone else=BAD

Wow; being a yank myself, I'd say you were 100% accurate. Thank you for speaking on our behalf.

 

[Grand Prix]

The concept of "good" and "evil" existing on their own as some sort of entities or forces is nothing more than a cop-out. This childish notion is merely a convenient out to excuse our very human behavior.

There is no such thing as "evil". There is only the nasty behaviour of we self-centered little piss-ant hominids.

The comedian Flip Wilson's great old line "The devil made me do it!" is a wry comment on our natural tendency to point fingers and divert blame away from ourselves: Don't blame us for what we do. It's that nasty evil force out there making us do it.

Good point, but some people claimed that Communism was evil? They said that not only were Communists evil, but the Communists themselves knew they were evil and existed to perform evil deeds. It seems more likely to me that Vladimir Lenin thought he doing good for the world.


In the Hundred Years War, both the French and the British believed that God was leading them to victory. Does this suggest that God was a double crosser? Or did both sides simply thought they were good, and God had nothing to do with it?

 

[Young_Warrior]

Americas evil they go by this.

Dont do as we do do as we say.

 

[Gil]

So James, I guess you're in support of the quote "One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"? Then you agree that good and evil are relative depending on where you live, correct? For example, the Colonists in the American Revolution and the British Empire could have viewed each other as equally evil, with both thinking that they were good?

To some degree you are correct that "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter."

But keep in mind that the colonists left Britain due to an oppressive government that tended to tax on the basis of the king wanting to stuff the governmental coffers, and that the tax payers had no say in what the money was to do.
They also sought freedom to worship as they pleased.

Then, to the dismay of the colonists, the taxation issue followed them to the colonies. So, we took up arms and raised holy hell. If the British had relented, and allowed us representation in parliment r/t taxation, we might likely still be content British subjects.

Yes, I'm sure the British saw us as "evil"/disloyal to the crown, but regarded us as a bothersome little band of rebels that would be easily quashed. That "little" mistake in British thinking is the reason that there is a US of A, instead of the Colonies of America.

 

[Duke]

I'll fill in the yank's point of view, on their behalf.

United States of America=GOOD
Everyone else=BAD

James2097=EVIL

Geee, thanks. I'm so grateful to have you to think for me. How would I ever manage it otherwise?

Well, this post just totally killed my interest in participating in this thread, or in reading another word James2097 ever writes. Good bye.

 

[Gil]

I'll fill in the yank's point of view, on their behalf.

United States of America=GOOD
Everyone else=BAD

James2097=EVIL

How humorous you are!!
However I believe that Grand Prix was asking at least a semi-serious question.
Please be good enough to think about the question and answer in the spirit that the question was asked in.
Otherwise, we'll see your input in the "Comedy Corner".

As for filling in our point of view... You've hit the nail squarely on the thumb!.
Nice try! Perhaps a smaller "hammer" is in your future.
How does that shoe taste anyway?

One of our "Yank" rules of thumb: Keep your mouth closed and let them think you're clueless. It's much better than opening it and removing all doubt.

 

[ledhed]

I know evil when I shoot it .

 

[Young_Warrior]

I know evil when I shoot it .

Only in america.

 

[Zardoz]

Only in america.

Yeah, we only have thinking like that up here in Babylon. Thank Jah that nobody is like that in the safe, peaceful city of Kingston.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Yeah, we only have thinking like that up here in Babylon. Thank Jah that nobody is like that in the safe, peaceful city of Kingston.

I live in London UK.

But in america anyone can have a gun and so most people do and it a kind of norm but only the gangstas and rudeboys in london kingston etc be bustin gats.

 

[Pupik]

I'll fill in the yank's point of view, on their behalf.

It's a good thing I'm not a Yankees fan. You are a simpleton, aren't you, James2097?

In any case, I pretty much agree with Zardoz. Good and evil are just concepts, what's good for one, is evil for another, and vice versa. Nobody and nothing creates good and evil "behind the scenes"; there are no mysterious forces pushing anybody or anything toward a good side or the evil side. Good and bad things are all judgements of our mind.

For example, a grizzly bear has to protect itself and it's young. So does a wise human for protecting himself in a wild area. Should one of them attack the other, who is evil? The bear may feel threatened by the human, and the human may feel the bear is a threat to himself. But if the bear attacks and mauls the human, we think of the bear as evil. The bear is doing what we might have done, except we aren't likely to maul it in return, but to shoot it/scare the heck out of it. The bear, frightened, will think differently of a human. Both feel they are doing a "good" thing, both fear each other (whether rational or otherwise), which provokes feelings of "evil" in some cases.

I think the concept of "evil" is merely part of our ignorance or disdain towards actions we have no control (or wish not not exercise control) over. No thing is purley good or bad, or purely good or evil.

 

[milefile]

The Judeo-Christian nations, formerly known as Chistiandom, are advanced. They are nice places to live, offer their citizens many benefits and a high standard of living. Their poor are better off than the average citizen of the average non-Judeo-Christian nation. Virtually every major advancement which improves the quality and length of life has come from these the places where the Judeo-Christain morality is the rule.

This is evidence that this way of life is good for humanity.

It is important to mention that nothing is perfect.

Evil is, as far as I can see, more singular. There are evil people in Europe and America, as well as Iraq and China, or North Korea. The morality of a group can be seen in what they do with their evil individuals. In some places evil is celebrated by the masses (with UN money). In some places schools are named after suicide bombers. In other places people who blow up children and women are put to death.

The BTK killer is evil. And our tax dollars will pay his cable bill for the next thirty or forty years. That is bad.

 

[Pupik]

In some places schools are named after suicide bombers. In other places people who blow up children and women are put to death.

How is that any worse than naming a school after a military general, who sends people to kill others? To me, it's quite poor taste to name a school after anyone who kills people either way.

The BTK killer is evil. And our tax dollars will pay his cable bill for the next thirty or forty years. That is bad.

Better (and cheaper) than paying for his (before arraignment) government job salary, in which we paid for beforehand. Who says he's getting his own cable TV, anyhow? They should put him in General Population, where he'll get bound, tortured, and raped just like his victims.

 

[James2097]

So James, I guess you're in support of the quote "One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"? Then you agree that good and evil are relative depending on where you live, correct? For example, the Colonists in the American Revolution and the British Empire could have viewed each other as equally evil, with both thinking that they were good?

Yes, I do think there is never really truly "good" or "bad" in the world, only shades of gray. Humanity is the same everywhere, although different cultures try and find peace and happiness through different systems - sometimes with (unwanted) bad results. However I believe everyone has the same basic ideals of how life should be lived. Freedom, justice and peace are all things EVERYONE wants, they are the core of how humanity can stay happy. I don't think these things are culture specific.

My post was simply highlighting (using an extreme example) the problems brought upon one's world-view by only relying on one (ultimately biased) source of "news". It was criticising the often simplistic and all too 'black and white' media you guys have in America, NOT any individual. My post was blatantly sarcastic, however in hindsight it was dangerously cutting in its observation of the way many Europeans really do see America, hence why you may not have realised it didn't reflect (at all) my actual view. Surely, if one had built up any previous idea as to who I am, one would simply KNOW I was simply pulling yer leg. It was a joke, pure and simple.

The post actually makes MORE fun of people who irrationally hate/blame the US (its called self-mockery) for every problem in the world. You were never supposed to take the post on face value. It had a deeper observational purpose, which some people didn't quite understand, in their quickness to attack me, without asking for any explanation first...

Personally (and I'm being serious now, in case you want to know) I have a great love and respect for America and its people, as I do all people - this should be obvious if you actually knew me, I value all people equally.

Just to prove I love America (to remove all doubt):
My favorite people: Hendrix, Buddy Guy, BB King, Stevie Ray Vaughan (all American).
My favorite things: Fender Strat, Gibson Les Paul (American).
My favorite food: Hamburgers, ribs, nachos etc (American, a bit mexican but close enough).
My favorite music: Blues, Rock & Roll (originally American - although you did have to enslave an entire race of people for it )
My favorite cars: many of them classic American models...
Do I need go on?

I admit to criticising and dissagreeing with a lot of American policy, but this should NOT be taken as me hating Americans. Too many Americans take offence when all you are doing is questioning government actions, NOT the citizens...

I only poked a little fun (knowing the issue (of whether the world hates them) is something Americans worry about) to stimulate debate, which worked. To show I was joking, I stated that I was "evil" and gave a trouble-maker smiley... I knew I was saying something potentially aggravating for American readers. The plan was to let it go down, observe the reactions and then discuss the issues I brought up. Some of you got the joke (I'm actually WORRIED some of you ACTUALLY AGREED WITH IT!!), others got offended and had a tantrum without letting me first explain the premise behind posting it.

Seriously - lighten up. I am not an American hater. I am far too educated to have such a simplistic view of the world and its people. Surely people would realise I had a point to my joke? Grand Prix picked up on the issue very well.

Of course an entire nationality of people can't be stupid, or dumb. All people are the same! They only know what the media tells them, after all.

Now of course there can be certain individuals in the world who are extremely bad or possibly evil when given power and/or influence (Bin Laden anybody?) but overall I think all humans are fundamentally the same. Its still ironic that at one point Bin Laden was America's ally (kind of), same with Saddam. How things change... My point is that things aren't quite as cut and dry as many people assume (or want) them to be...



I still can't believe how crazy Duke went, he really got upset! I am sorry about that

Gil, funny put down (seriously ). Pity you took my post to heart (maybe?), I don't want you to get me wrong, you seem like a really nice guy from when we talked about guitar stuff...

 

[ledhed]

I live in London UK.

But in america anyone can have a gun and so most people do and it a kind of norm but only the gangstas and rudeboys in london kingston etc be bustin gats.

They teach ebonics in London ? What the F87k does a joke about a stupid subject have to do with only in america ? We shoot morons too .

 

[milefile]

How is that any worse than naming a school after a military general, who sends people to kill others? To me, it's quite poor taste to name a school after anyone who kills people either way.

I agree. It is in poor taste. I can't think of a school named after a general, though. Do you know of any?

But here is how it is worse:

A general takes orders from a government. His directive is that of the security, survival and/or enhancement of whatever body the government represents.

A general's goal is to win a war. Wars aren't won until they end. The only way to end war is to win war. When the war ends the killing ends. The general's goal is for killing to end. A lot of people have a hard time wrapping their minds around this one.

A general's targets are military targets. The general can't help it if his adversary has placed military targets among civilian populations. Do you have anti-aircraft stations next to your house? Any radar stations? Arms caches? In Western countries we try to protect our citizens from military action, unlike some others where they are used as dispensible pawns by the dictator.

Let's contast this to terrorism.

A terrorist takes it's directive from a radical dogma. For instance, Islamo-fascist terrorists' directive is to convert the world (pigs) to Islam, except the Jews (monkeys), who must all be killed. Their means are simple: resitst and die. Be a Jew and die.

A terrorists' goal is to kill, preferably in the most destructive and unpredictable way possible. There is no end to the killing. The more the better. Kill kill kill. Then laugh about it and pat eachother on the back. One "victory" leads to the desire for another. Terrorism incites itself.

Terrorists' targets are the vulnerable. Terrorists kill babies and women on purpose. Terrorists chop off heads, video tape it, and broadcast it for the sole purpose of terrorizing.

To name a school after a general who's actions preserved America in the face of a threat like Nazism or Imperial Japan, perhaps one who went on to be president, is diferent from naming a school after someone who commited suicide at young age in order kill Jews because all Jews must die, and never did anything else, never had a chance to do anything else in life.

 

[Sage]

Only in america.

Stick it where the sun don’t shine and get back on topic. Every damn thread you enter, you say “Only in America” or something else critical (no, not critical – ignorant) that you picked up from the jerkfaces who have nothing better to do with themselves than whine about the world. Why don’t I just record a damn little audio clip that says “Only in America”, burn it onto a CD, then have it loop perpetually? That would achieve the same effect you’re having, except it would be cheaper to maintain, and at least I could smash it when I’m done. Sheesh.

Anyway, pupik has it right-on. We are nothing but a grab-bag of atoms, and there’s no such thing as a “good” or “bad” atom – and behavior/actions are merely the result of many atoms moving together at once. Good/bad and good/evil are merely for the sake of convenience – if we did not make such definitions, we’d have anarchy, and humans found out a long time ago that anarchy doesn’t allow as much innovation and progress as a society that has some rules.

 

[Emohawk]

I've just got one little point I'd like to dispute:

A terrorist takes it's directive from a radical dogma.

I think terrorists can take their directive from anywhere, it's only their actions (as you discribed) in satisfying that directive that makes them terrorists.

 

[Grand Prix]

@Milefile: Do you think that the terrorists know they're evil? Are you implying that there is an absolute evil force that drives terrorists to perform evil deeds? Hmmmm.


Well, my take on this matter is that every person in the world will see themselves as good in some way. I think it all started in the earliest of human societies, when tribe leaders labeled themselves as good and named everything else bad. Later, when the poor and the slaves started being treated cruely, they labeled their masters as evil and called themselves good as an afterthought. Thus began "slave morality", which comprises as traits designed to make the poor seem better than the rich.

To say that absolute evil exists, in my mind, is akin to saying that the majority of Germans that were able to vote in the 1930's were evil.

 

[ledhed]

Forrest Gumps mom said it right . " Evil is as evil does " . Or was that a funny pancake I ate ?
Evil is just a word . Good is just a word ..a better word than evil but still has four letters and starts with " G " same as goobers and everyone knows goobers are good . Evil sounds bad and everyone knows words that " sound bad " are an indication of intent ..so shoot the evil bastards and be done with it ! send me some goobers...although I'll take raisinettes if you cant find any . look at Saddams picture...dont he look evil ? Now look at a picture of Pamela Anderson...mmmmmmmm dont she look GOOD ?
But Ha ! Looks can be decieving...everyone knows Pam is a bad bad girl...though she might not necessarily be evil...unless of course your Pat Robinson...then Pams goin ' to the DEVIL ....cause Pat say's she's evil ..but Pat wants to kill some dude ...mmm Pats a minister ? ...Pat wants to kill....minister.....Pats an evil bastard minister ! Shoot him for being mad at Pam ! Say it ...say E............V.......I.......L ..dont it sound kool ? Stretch it out ...say EEEEEEEEEVIL ...then go bwaahahahahahahahahaha....see what I mean ?
Good is boring....unless you score a goal......then its GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD !
But do you really want to BE good ? Or is it good enough to just want to be good and have evil **** just happen ?

 

[James2097]

Forrest Gumps mom said it right . " Evil is as evil does " . Or was that a funny pancake I ate ?
Evil is just a word . Good is just a word ..a better word than evil but still has four letters and starts with " G " same as goobers and everyone knows goobers are good . Evil sounds bad and everyone knows words that " sound bad " are an indication of intent ..so shoot the evil bastards and be done with it ! send me some goobers...although I'll take raisinettes if you cant find any . look at Saddams picture...dont he look evil ? Now look at a picture of Pamela Anderson...mmmmmmmm dont she look GOOD ?
But Ha ! Looks can be decieving...everyone knows Pam is a bad bad girl...though she might not necessarily be evil...unless of course your Pat Robinson...then Pams goin ' to the DEVIL ....cause Pat say's she's evil ..but Pat wants to kill some dude ...mmm Pats a minister ? ...Pat wants to kill....minister.....Pats an evil bastard minister ! Shoot him for being mad at Pam ! Say it ...say E............V.......I.......L ..dont it sound kool ? Stretch it out ...say EEEEEEEEEVIL ...then go bwaahahahahahahahahaha....see what I mean ?
Good is boring....unless you score a goal......then its GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD !
But do you really want to BE good ? Or is it good enough to just want to be good and have evil **** just happen ?

I know, the whole concept of good and evil is just silly and simplistic, only worth making fun of.
But seriously, I'm worried for your health. Have you had one too many space cakes?

 

[milefile]

@Milefile: Do you think that the terrorists know they're evil? Are you implying that there is an absolute evil force that drives terrorists to perform evil deeds? Hmmmm.

No. Like I said, it's more singular. There are evil people everywhere and always have been. I can't fathom what drives them to do what they do. What happens to them tells us more than anything.

Forrest Gumps mom said it right . " Evil is as evil does " .

Indeed. It is good that we have (just) words to talk about these things.

We are nothing but a grab-bag of atoms

How do we get from atoms to Mozart? Atoms to the internet? Is language just atoms? Shakespeare is just atoms? Are love and hate just atoms?

Your statement strikes me as some ultimate, nihilistic statement of indiference. Is it?

 

[Swift]

I live in London UK.

But in america anyone can have a gun and so most people do and it a kind of norm but only the gangstas and rudeboys in london kingston etc be bustin gats.

You obviously have no clue what the gun laws are in America. So, you should shutup currently about things you don't understand.

 

[Sage]

How do we get from atoms to Mozart? Atoms to the internet? Is language just atoms? Shakespeare is just atoms? Are love and hate just atoms?

Your statement strikes me as some ultimate, nihilistic statement of indiference. Is it?

No, of course not! Not indifference at all – I was trying to point out that it’s all relative. Good and bad are not universal constants – as pupik said (whom I was concurring with), killing is usually bad, but if you’re killing a bear to save yourself, then it’s not bad (well, for you, but of course it’s bad for the bear). Good and bad can’t be measured like the speed of light – it’s all relative to our needs.

[edit]: I need to learn to write coherent sentences without dashes.