Gran Turismo – A comparison across the series (part 2 added)

[SavageEvil]

Hey all im saying is the the DFP is reading the road surface , not sure how accurately it reads it but I know that it's a lot better than playing with a DS2. For one on the Nür the part between the Kallenhard and Wehrseifen, in any race car going through there quickly is not easy with the DS2 it's terrible, but with the DFP because of the ForceFeedback you can actually read what's going to happen and adjust accordingly. With the DS2 is hit or miss, for the most part i just slow down when using the DS2 because it's soo tricky.

The DFP brings in something that was missing from prior GT's, it's the feedback from the road surfaces, this helps a great deal. It's a two way street though, as it makes highspeed driving treacherous. Wolfe when you get your hands on a DFP, go straight to Arcade mode and if you have it unlocked use the CLK-GTR on R3's, turn off all the assists, u may want to keep TCS as this car's hp is overboard (785hp), besure u disable all the wheels aids including the steering aids, turn FF to max. make sure the race setting is set to 10. Now you have 2-3 laps dependin on your setting to win, now you will understand completely what I mean about the difference between the DS2 and the DFP, and what it makes in the game. The other cars are there for competition, as while you are learning the wheel and the course feel they will keep you on your toes. AI isn't too good, but firstime on the Nür with the DFP they will hand you your ass.

But for some real good testing, take the M3 '04 model on N2's, in time trial mode and beat 8m 22sec, no off roading. Just fluid driving, with the DFP of course. This time can be done on both N2 and N3's, N1 is a little tougher, you have to be really really really focused.

 

[niky]

How come you always want me to be wrong...?

Because you don't like GT4. ...j/k... Nah... it's just one of those points I've been working on in road-testing these past few weeks. Drive a whole lot of FF cars, some of them pretty horrid ones, and lift-off oversteer becomes a very good friend.

I can agree with that. I said "GT4 doesn't allow you to use lift-off oversteer to correct understeer," but I didn't really mean never, ever, ever.

Okay, just clarifying. ...But it does allow it, and the situations in which it doesn't are ones in which it may not work in real-life... I guess the difference is in where you draw that line.

That's all fine and good, as long as you realize that such force feedback effects don't verify that GT4 has realistic...the arcade cabinet for the original San Francisco Rush had similar force feedback effects...

Hey all im saying is the the DFP is reading the road surface , not sure how accurately it reads it but I know that it's a lot better than playing with a DS2. For one on the Nür the part between the Kallenhard and Wehrseifen, in any race car going through there quickly is not easy with the DS2 it's terrible, but with the DFP because of the ForceFeedback you can actually read what's going to happen and adjust accordingly. With the DS2 is hit or miss, for the most part i just slow down when using the DS2 because it's soo tricky.

Arcade games have that force-feedback, but in GT, you get more feel for the road. If you go over a bump, it pushes your steering in the correct direction. Odd cambers will also tug your steering in the direction they would in real life. It's not 100% yet, you don't get tramlining or the slight, steady tugs down long straights at off-cambers, but moderate cambers WILL be felt. Whether or not it's completely realistic may be debatable, but it feels nice, and it's fun.

The friend from whom I borrowed a DFP is coming into town for the weekend, and he's probably going to sell the DFP to me for $80! Hurray! I'll be able to play Live for Speed again!

See? Your priorities are all screwed up. ...sell it to me! I can't find a DFP in this country anywhere! Congratulations, dude. Now you need to put a driving cabinet together.

Hey, for all the hard work we put into this, it should be, like, stickied, or linked to in a faq or something..."The Definitive Debate on GT4's Realism"

Or how about "the Official GT4 Abstruse Discussion Thread". Next up, How Realistically does GT4 Simulate Low-Profile vs. Regular Tires, and What psi Are They At, Anyway?

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe when you get your hands on a DFP, go...

I have plenty of experience with the DFP -- on Live for Speed, and various other PC sims. I borrowed my friend's DFP for several months, and almost never used it on the PS2.

The thing to remember is that we are discussing the realism of the motions, behaviors, and physics of the cars in GT4 here. Not the feedback that we get from the game. Good force feedback doesn't make a realistic game.

Because you don't like GT4. ...j/k... Nah... it's just one of those points I've been working on in road-testing these past few weeks. Drive a whole lot of FF cars, some of them pretty horrid ones, and lift-off oversteer becomes a very good friend.

Actually, you bring up a good point. Too many FF cars are too eager to put the tail out in GT4. You can even get power-oversteer...

Scaff and I were discussing the lift-off oversteer dynamics of GT4 vs Real life as a whole, regardless of drivetrain.

Okay, just clarifying. ...But it does allow it, and the situations in which it doesn't are ones in which it may not work in real-life... I guess the difference is in where you draw that line.

Eh...I can't recall it being that common...I don't have easy access to GT4 at the moment...

Arcade games have that force-feedback, but in GT, you get more feel for the road. If you go over a bump, it pushes your steering in the correct direction. Odd cambers will also tug your steering in the direction they would in real life. It's not 100% yet, you don't get tramlining or the slight, steady tugs down long straights at off-cambers, but moderate cambers WILL be felt. Whether or not it's completely realistic may be debatable, but it feels nice, and it's fun.

It doesn't matter how realistic the force feedback is, my point is that games with bad physics can have good force feedback, and vice versa (LFS has quite mediocre force feedback)

See? Your priorities are all screwed up. ...sell it to me! I can't find a DFP in this country anywhere! Congratulations, dude. Now you need to put a driving cabinet together.

Actually, I don't need a cabinet, because I just recently got a capture card for my PC, so not only can I play LFS, I can also play Enthusia on a nice, sturdy desk!

 

[niky]

Actually, you bring up a good point. Too many FF cars are too eager to put the tail out in GT4. You can even get power-oversteer...

Scaff and I were discussing the lift-off oversteer dynamics of GT4 vs Real life as a whole, regardless of drivetrain.

The power-oversteer is a valid complaint, but one that I notice happens mostly on flat tracks. It is damn weird.

Some FF cars that seem to allow too much lift-off oversteer actually are that way in real-life. But there are others which don't allow enough, and some which are ridiculously easy (take the Acura CL) compared to how they should handle IRL. On the whole, it's a hit-or-miss thing.

Damn, don't make me envious. Our home computer got damaged in a fire, and it'll take us some time to build another gaming giant (all I've got now is this dinky laptop... and I do all my photoshop work on it ). Till then, it's GT4 and no more FPS's for me.

Once I've got a good gaming system back up, I might actually be able to try these other games (and I'm really aching to)... till then, I'm staying right here.

 

[Wolfe]

The power-oversteer is a valid complaint, but one that I notice happens mostly on flat tracks. It is damn weird.

Some FF cars that seem to allow too much lift-off oversteer actually are that way in real-life. But there are others which don't allow enough, and some which are ridiculously easy (take the Acura CL) compared to how they should handle IRL. On the whole, it's a hit-or-miss thing.

Indeed, 'tis a very weird phenomenon. And you're right that there are FF cars that allow lots of lift-off oversteer -- these are the FF's that I tend to like (I'm a RWD fanatic ).

Damn, don't make me envious. Our home computer got damaged in a fire, and it'll take us some time to build another gaming giant (all I've got now is this dinky laptop... and I do all my photoshop work on it ). Till then, it's GT4 and no more FPS's for me.

Once I've got a good gaming system back up, I might actually be able to try these other games (and I'm really aching to)... till then, I'm staying right here.

Damn, that sucks...I had a computer die on me in April. The CPU fan failed, which eventually resulted in the CPU/motherboard frying...I couldn't find any place that sold a replacement fan of a proper size, so I just opened the case and put a floor fan in front of it, which worked for a month or two...

I've got a new, more powerful computer now, though...

 

[JasBird]

With the devlopment of the Physics engine from game to game, as far as I am aware GT, GT2 and GT3 (and possiably GT:C) are all developmentsof the same basic engine. As you say tweaked and evolved with each new game. I am, howver, sure I can remember reading that the engine for GT4 Prologue and GT4 was built from the ground up. I can recall the piece making a major point of the fact that it was the first time in the series that a new engine had been created. The difference was clearly visable when GT4 Prologue first came out and so of the issue discused today about GT4 have roots in threads in the GT4 Prolouge area.

If I remeber correctly Kaz Y says in the interview on the DVD that comes with GT4 Prologue that they created a new physics engine for GT4 and that GT3 was based on GT and GT2.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Awesome thread +Rep. This is similar to what I was saying in post 112 of this thread below:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=115079&page=6

I think it's important to compare the same car(s) at the same track in different games, it's an eye-opener for sure.


One question tho, to Scaff: did you do those acceleration tests starting the tach needle at idle in all cases, or did you put the needle somewhere higher up in revs?

 

[ferhound]

Gran Turismo, over the years:


Personally I like the way the series are evolving, but I would like to see major advance on AI.