GranTurismo 7 Damage model

[Dave A]

Damage being restricted due to licensing has never actually been proven to my knowledge. I mean, logic tells you that there certainly would be a limit, they aren't going to want them to see their cars crushed to nothing, but there has never been anyone that has come out and said they can't significantly damage road cars, AFAIK.

The Kunos guy even said years ago it was an "urban myth" and the only restrictions were to showing blood and injury.



Damage is just really hard to do well with hyper detailed modern cars. People always point to BeamNG but those cars are specifically made from the start to support that and are limited in other ways, namely detail.

It has been confirmed by both manufacturers and developers in the past that rules on damage have been stipulated by the license. Bear in mind the Kunos developer in that interview states they can "put" damage not that the damange they are allowsed to "put" is unrestricted. A very common stipulation by manufacturers is that the car must remain drivable at all times, i.e. you cannot damage the car to an extent that it becomes undriveable.

A quote from Kazanori (quite old but relevant) says "It's not all manufacturers, but there is a trend generally speaking that manufacturers have become a little bit more lenient towards the direction we would like to head, in terms of allowing for damage on cars in games."

You do see that in other games - there are ways - it's just that with the range of cars we have, it's more difficult.": https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/i_gt4_ps2

Develpoers, System 3 are also on record as stating that convincing Ferrari to put damage on the cars was a “big challenge”: http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/features/markcale_iv_jun08_p1.asp

Another quote from Kazanori stated "Some car makers don't mind car damage, others forbid it": https://n4g.com/news/93684/kazunori-yamauchi-talks-about-gran-turismo-5#c-681372

Stances may or may not be softening further, but there is very much a reason why racing games like Dirt Rally feature more complex damage and deformation models than games that feature licensed road cars.

 

[Nowax]

Real-time soft body damage like in Wreckfest and BeamNG.

Wreckfest does NOT use real-time soft body damage. By that logic, Gran Turismo 5 had soft body damage with the 458 Italia.

 

[c172fccc]

Damage being restricted due to licensing has never actually been proven to my knowledge.

All I am gonna say is that you'll notice in Project CARS 1 that none of the Mercedes cars can lose panels, while most of the other cars can.

 

[Dave A]

Wreckfest does NOT use real-time soft body damage. By that logic, Gran Turismo 5 had soft body damage with the 458 Italia.

Are you sure? On the Steam page for Wreckfest Bugbear state "Wreckfest is a demolition derby themed racing game with soft-body damage modeling..."

 

[Nowax]

Are you sure? On the Steam page for Wreckfest Bugbear state "Wreckfest is a demolition derby themed racing game with soft-body damage modeling..."

Well that's rare if you ask me. BeamNG uses Soft-Body cars to simulate its cars, every hole on the track (Just an example) makes all the car wobbly, whereas in Wreckfest I don't see that happen. And come to think of it, it's really resource-consuming Wreckfest, it wouldn't be cool if you added soft-body to a game that needs to have 24 cars on a single race.

 

[enthusia]

Damaged models are overrated. Most big title car games today have varying degrees of deformity. Just be lucky we get something for those that want it. While they look good, none of them are really 100% accurate. Gran Theft Auto games have proper deformity

 

[Sage Ages]

Real-time soft body damage like in Wreckfest and BeamNG.

No.

 

[05XR8]

Damaged models are overrated. Most big title car games today have varying degrees of deformity. Just be lucky we get something for those that want it. While they look good, none of them are really 100% accurate. Gran Theft Auto games have proper deformity

Don't know. I've driven a many time into cars on a motorcycle and my tyres don't deform.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Soft body physics are extremely complicated and completely out of the question for Gran Turismo. Nor do I feel like they're necessary. However GT7 needs a better damage model to at least show panel damage and loose bodywork. I would like to see component failures but that may be harder to implement across the board.

 

[Shingo_civic]

It would be amazing to have brakes wear and tire flatspots also, they seem little things but can add so much variables to the races

 

[05XR8]

Flat spot at Nurb 24 T1. Oof!

 

[Vspectra]

From 2015: https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-7-to-see-improved-crash-damage-physics-coming-before-2017/

“Yamauchi has guaranteed that the seventh chapter will solve many problems related to the physical impacts and simulation of damage, two aspects that have always been taken seriously by fans of this saga. It also confirms a greater number of premium cars in Gran Turismo 7, although – for the moment – Yamauchi-san has preferred not to say too much about figures.
​

I wonder if they do have something new planned given these old comments and how GTSport's damage was barely any different from GT6. Held back by the PS4 low-end laptop CPU?

 

[TiMcF1]

No.

I'll await for my low expectations to be lifted if not, no harm done.

 

[Haitauer]

Collision physics are a lot more important than deformation i think. Visual damage is a plus, but for a racing game collisions are #1 mechanical damage #2 and visuals come after these. One of the most overlooked features is wall/track object collisions, which have big impact how realistic the consequences of a driver error are. Deformation is more important for arcade racing.

Before anyone quotes this and comments "of course I want those too..", we must understand its not a perfect world and we have these things called resources and things need to be prioritized. And for anyone using iRacing as an example - even though they have capabilities of high-end pc to run the game it has taken them over a decade to get to this point. Still the game is obnoxiously expensive and actually not much of a game outside the simulation and online races. To bring AAA game like GT7 or FH5 optimized to a console with all the content and these physics of iRacing wouldnt be much short of a miracle.

 

[BigShamrock]

nada.

 

[MadMax97]

I think they will only improve suspension damage slitghly and add engine temperature and engine damage/overhaul with the cars get slower of course..... But a part from that nothing special, sort of GT5 and GT sport damage hybrid.... No aesthetyc/visual damage! Only perfomance, which is enough!

 

[O.Z]

Gran Turismo and damage model doesn't belong in the same sentence

 

[Dave A]

Gran Turismo and damage model doesn't belong in the same sentence

Why? Damage in one form or another has featured in GT2, GT5, GT6 and GT Sport. Excluding the non-mainstream titles and GT7 (as we don't know if that will feature damage or not yet) that's 57% of the games that featured damage.

Damage done well is another matter altogether, in GT2 is was fairly basic mechanical damage which affected the cars steering if you turned the feature on, and IIR it was only an option on the Arcade disk.

GT5 and GT6 had much more comprehensive damage models in comparison, but they still fell short in many ways and was inconsistent from car to car. Mechanical damage was also present.

GT Sport features broken lights and scuffs and minor visual damage as well as mechanical damage.

 

[MadMax97]

Give me good mechanical and suspension damage, engine overhaul and I'm happy

 

[Scaff]

Are you sure? On the Steam page for Wreckfest Bugbear state "Wreckfest is a demolition derby themed racing game with soft-body damage modeling..."

Wreckfest has very basic soft-body in comparison to the level and detail that BeamNG has, if Wreckfest were on the same level most races would end after a lap with everyone wrecked to the point of immobility.

The strain that BeamNG puts on a system with it's soft-body physics with just a handful of cars is massive, the spec you would need to run Wreckfest with the same level of detail would be insane.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Wreckfest has very basic soft-body in comparison to the level and detail that BeamNG has, if Wreckfest were on the same level most races would end after a lap with everyone wrecked to the point of immobility.

The strain that BeamNG puts on a system with it's soft-body physics with just a handful of cars is massive, the spec you would need to run Wreckfest with the same level of detail would be insane.

Not really suitable for a home PC or console then. Racing 16 cars with complex soft body physics will break pretty much everything a consumer can own.

 

[Scaff]

Not really suitable for a home PC or console then. Racing 16 cars with complex soft body physics will break pretty much everything a consumer can own.

This youtube channel is pretty much nothing but BeamNG crash tests (and is oddly compelling to watch), the PC spec they run to get it looking like this (which let's be honest is not much better than Wreckfest) are quite mad, this is kind of what needed to run 16 car races in BeamNG.





Spec: CPU: Intel Core i9-7980XE 18-Core, 36-Thread
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 4000MHz 32GB
GPU: 2 x NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 TI PCI-Express 3.0, 11GB GDDR6

That's to get it looking sort of Wreckfest level of quality (and also the reason why they don't need to clear the track between tests, as on my system that would become a lagging frame-rate nightmare with that much going on in BeamNG), but oh boy does the damage look amazing.

 

[owoc12]

bump

 

[MadMax97]

Kaz said in September interview that they will going to improve the damage model in GT7 what do you expect as an improvement? maybe a damage similar to gt sport that have more impact on the car handling and speed? Or maybe a completely new overhauled damage system that affect every mechanical part of the car as the perfomance of the vehicle, in addition with more of aesthethyc visual damage on the body of the car, parts feeling a part flying from the car and something more sophisticated? Maybe something like it was in GT5 but with more realism?


I am very curious about it! What are your predictions about?

 

[o000o]

Kaz said in September interview that they will going to improve the damage model in GT7 what do you expect as an improvement? maybe a damage similar to gt sport that have more impact on the car handling and speed? Or maybe a completely new overhauled damage system that affect every mechanical part of the car as the perfomance of the vehicle, in addition with more of aesthethyc visual damage on the body of the car, parts feeling a part flying from the car and something more sophisticated? Maybe something like it was in GT5 but with more realism?


I am very curious about it! What are your predictions about?

Why do you have such a high hope over this?

 

[MadMax97]

Why do you have such a high hope over this?

Well, hope is the last to die.

And also, I would very like to see what they will do and how far they can improve it from GT Sport, because in GTS it was really very basic and rubbish... that's all, nothing more nothing less...

 

[Ramosis]

IMO, it will be marginally better than that one in GT Sport. My only hope is a better collision model. But, to be realistic, I would not hold my breath for this...

 

[MadMax97]

IMO, it will be marginally better than that one in GT Sport. My only hope is a better collision model. But, to be realistic, I would not hold my breath for this...

I agree, we can't hold much of a breath, but hey... we have still to see! I mean, they could suprise us, who knows... I think visual damage is pretty unlikely (unless miracle happens), but perfomance damage and collision model maybe will get a slight update. What I expect as a MINIMUM is to have damage also in career mode races, and have a realistic damage option (toggable) that allows the damage on suspensions and engine to be permanent and last as such for the whole race, instead of disappearing after 1 lap... and maybe I would also expect a bit more of a perfomance penalty for the damage and collisions itself


Visual damage maybe get a slight upgrade, but it will probably stay as it is. I'm very curious to hear news from PD in this regard!

And what is even more important to fix is the penalty system for the collisions etc.

 

[o000o]

I agree, we can't hold much of a breath, but hey... we have still to see! I mean, they could suprise us, who knows... I think visual damage is pretty unlikely (unless miracle happens), but perfomance damage and collision model maybe will get a slight update. What I expect as a MINIMUM is to have damage also in career mode races, and have a realistic damage option (toggable) that allows the damage on suspensions and engine to be permanent and last as such for the whole race, instead of disappearing after 1 lap... and maybe I would also expect a bit more of a perfomance penalty for the damage and collisions itself


Visual damage maybe get a slight upgrade, but it will probably stay as it is. I'm very curious to hear news from PD in this regard!

And what is even more important to fix is the penalty system for the collisions etc.

They said it themselves that it'd be minimal improvement compared to GTS, stop giving false hope by twisting their words into something much bigger.

 

[05XR8]

Sport Mode or Simulation Mode? Sport Mode, I guess we’ll still have the same ping pong collision. Simulation Mode may be more of a softer contact, in that it simulates the distribution of the contact.