Grass - too deadly?

[mattikake]

As per title, I'm finding this stuff more lethal than a fully icy track,

The slightest 1/4 wheel on the grass and you're doomed. Ok, so don't put a wheel on the grass. Well I try but small mistakes happen, especially when you have a violently twisting wheel. It's like the grass is permanently wet and speaking of which, in the wet, the grass effect is the same as in the dry.

I've seen 1000's of real races, in dry conditions drivers get away with a little puff of grass or dirt flying up, but here it's instant spin city. It doesn't appear to be realistic. I've also seen this become a tactic with online races. You only need to push someone a tiny bit on the grass, then spend the next few seconds watching them trying to sort it out in your mirrors. It's a real harsh fun killer online. Oh and of course, the race director then gives you a penalty, like you need another after losing 5-10 seconds in a spin. I don't ever remember a real race where a driver got a warning for touching the grass and/or spinning.

Kerbs are bad too, particularly the inside kerb. Not at all convincing. They kind of suck you off the inside of the track... and onto the grass, and you're doomed again. I'm guessing this is a feature of having pro drivers help develop the game who don't make such mistakes to test it properly for authenticity, but the average joe is going to.

Admittedly I haven't run on grass IRL but a have touched grass in karts before with half a wheel and nothing particularly spectacular happens.

If the devs aim for maximum realism, anyone else think this needs to be looked at?

 

[NLxAROSA]

Grass is fine. You can really smash through it in a lot of cases (e.g. front wheels of the Clio: no problem). But hit it with the wrong wheel (e.g. the rear wheels of a Clio) and you're backwards. Can't just run through it without thinking about the cars layout and setup.

anyone else think this needs to be looked at?

Maybe take a look at your driving style first. Judging from your topics, you can't seem to keep a car straight when it's cold, when it's wet, or driving through grass...

 

[twitcher]

As per title, I'm finding this stuff more lethal than a fully icy track,

The slightest 1/4 wheel on the grass and you're doomed. Ok, so don't put a wheel on the grass. Well I try but small mistakes happen, especially when you have a violently twisting wheel. It's like the grass is permanently wet and speaking of which, in the wet, the grass effect is the same as in the dry.

I've seen 1000's of real races, in dry conditions drivers get away with a little puff of grass or dirt flying up, but here it's instant spin city. It doesn't appear to be realistic. I've also seen this become a tactic with online races. You only need to push someone a tiny bit on the grass, then spend the next few seconds watching them trying to sort it out in your mirrors. It's a real harsh fun killer online. Oh and of course, the race director then gives you a penalty, like you need another after losing 5-10 seconds in a spin. I don't ever remember a real race where a driver got a warning for touching the grass and/or spinning.

Kerbs are bad too, particularly the inside kerb. Not at all convincing. They kind of suck you off the inside of the track... and onto the grass, and you're doomed again. I'm guessing this is a feature of having pro drivers help develop the game who don't make such mistakes to test it properly for authenticity, but the average joe is going to.

Admittedly I haven't run on grass IRL but a have touched grass in karts before with half a wheel and nothing particularly spectacular happens.

If the devs aim for maximum realism, anyone else think this needs to be looked at?

Wow it only took 1 response to tell you it's your problem

PCARS 2 really is the perfect game, not a thing wrong with it. The grass is modelled perfectly, shut up and L2D!

Just kidding. The grass is pretty ass. It permently feels like wet grass, never like dry grass or dirt. I can take a road car like the Mustang GT, on road tires, and can't even touch the throttle on the grass...like no one's ever parked a 430hp Mustang on grass without spinning

The difference between the grass in the dry and wet is zero. The amount of slip on the grass is the same, regardless of how much water is on track.


The inside curbs are also really bad...not as bad as PC1, but still really bad. Clip them the "wrong way" (ie the way every touring car driver in the world hits them to rotate the car), and you'll get "fish hooked" - it's like someone drops an anchor off the inside of the car and hooks the curb. Then the car goes into the generic PCARS 90' spin, inputs go numb, and you come to a stop 90' to a wall. I get depressed every time I watch TCR or V8SC and see the air those guys catch, and wish I could do the same.

The best solution I've found is that if you are going to strike an inside curb, left off the throttle...FWD or RWD, doesn't matter. If you hit the curb without touching the throttle, the chances of getting fish-hooked go down dramatically.

Or, straddle the curb. Not an option in most open wheelers, but in GT3/4, TC, road cars, etc, most have enough ride night to drive over all but the biggest curbs, one wheel on either side of the curb. Monza, Catalunya, Imola, Nurburgring, I do this all the time...it's like the curb's not even there

 

[FuriousDemon]

Grass seems a bit too slippery for me in the dry as well.

 

[mattikake]

Maybe take a look at your driving style first. Judging from your topics, you can't seem to keep a car straight when it's cold, when it's wet, or driving through grass...

Here we go. There's always at least one on every forum. I'm not really on here to see some publicly hint at their personal insecurity issues. Do you think that was in any constructive to a discussion about grass that seems too slippery, particularly from a playability pov?

I'm no expert and don't pretend to be as are many and have instigated several productive discovery discussions about playability features. Just because I've posted about these doesn't mean I'm perpetually struggling (re: your apparent negative view of people). I mention things I discover from time to time. Seems that's what you do when beta testing. No. Wait. This is a full release and not in beta isn't?

 

[BrandonW77]

The inside curbs are also really bad...not as bad as PC1, but still really bad. Clip them the "wrong way" (ie the way every touring car driver in the world hits them to rotate the car), and you'll get "fish hooked" - it's like someone drops an anchor off the inside of the car and hooks the curb. Then the car goes into the generic PCARS 90' spin, inputs go numb, and you come to a stop 90' to a wall. I get depressed every time I watch TCR or V8SC and see the air those guys catch, and wish I could do the same.

The best solution I've found is that if you are going to strike an inside curb, left off the throttle...FWD or RWD, doesn't matter. If you hit the curb without touching the throttle, the chances of getting fish-hooked go down dramatically.

Or, straddle the curb. Not an option in most open wheelers, but in GT3/4, TC, road cars, etc, most have enough ride night to drive over all but the biggest curbs, one wheel on either side of the curb. Monza, Catalunya, Imola, Nurburgring, I do this all the time...it's like the curb's not even there

Quite the opposite for me. In games like AC or R3E the curbs are death traps, touch them and you probably are going for a spin. In PCars2 I don't think I've had that happen at all so far, I regularly get all up on the inside curbs without any problems at all and even bounce the car up on two wheels like the Aussie's do (which is quite awesome and fun).

 

[twitcher]

Quite the opposite for me. In games like AC or R3E the curbs are death traps, touch them and you probably are going for a spin. In PCars2 I don't think I've had that happen at all so far, I regularly get all up on the inside curbs without any problems at all and even bounce the car up on two wheels like the Aussie's do (which is quite awesome and fun).

I too can hit the inside curbs, but there's some where it seems like from lap to lap, you get different results. The 2nd chicane at Monza comes to mind, the first curb on the left. It's not nearly as bad as in PCARS 1, but sometimes when you hit it, it grabs the car and spins it in a very odd feeling way. Same thing happens at the 2nd chicane at Oulton GP, the right hander.

I guess when I said "inside curbs are really bad," that was too much. They're not really bad, just inconsistent, to me at least. Better than PCARS 1 for sure.

 

[BrandonW77]

I too can hit the inside curbs, but there's some where it seems like from lap to lap, you get different results. The 2nd chicane at Monza comes to mind, the first curb on the left. It's not nearly as bad as in PCARS 1, but sometimes when you hit it, it grabs the car and spins it in a very odd feeling way. Same thing happens at the 2nd chicane at Oulton GP, the right hander.

I guess when I said "inside curbs are really bad," that was too much. They're not really bad, just inconsistent, to me at least. Better than PCARS 1 for sure.

Some curbs have a lip behind them and if you hang a tire over that lip it tends to grab the car and pull it in that direction. This is a real life thing, just like when you dip your real car off the edge of the pavement and it's kinda difficult to get it back up on the pavement because the lip just keeps pulling your car to the side. Same thing. I've seen it happen in real racing too, a driver can hit the curb 10 laps in a row with no problem but on the 11th lap he gets a little too far, hooks the back of the curb, and it takes his car for a spin. If you're getting different results from lap to lap this could be what's happening, and it fits your general description of what's happening with the curbs. The game definitely mimics this, as do some other games.

 

[mattikake]

Some curbs have a lip behind them and if you hang a tire over that lip it tends to grab the car and pull it in that direction. This is a real life thing, just like when you dip your real car off the edge of the pavement and it's kinda difficult to get it back up on the pavement because the lip just keeps pulling your car to the side. Same thing. I've seen it happen in real racing too, a driver can hit the curb 10 laps in a row with no problem but on the 11th lap he gets a little too far, hooks the back of the curb, and it takes his car for a spin. If you're getting different results from lap to lap this could be what's happening, and it fits your general description of what's happening with the curbs. The game definitely mimics this, as do some other games.

Yeah but PC2 will [sometimes] drag you past the lip and onto the grass, where you'll go for an oversteery spin. It's the inconsistency that gets you. If the FFB was better/working properly maybe you could feel it start to happen, but I get nothing for this kind of issue.

I used to use the inside lip on kerbs in karting whenever I could - so successful and often, I even considered it to be a bit of a cheat! But I'd never get dragged past it and onto grass on the inside. IIRC I've never spun it either in what must be a 100 races or more.

 

[BrandonW77]

Yeah but PC2 will [sometimes] drag you past the lip and onto the grass, where you'll go for an oversteery spin. It's the inconsistency that gets you. If the FFB was better/working properly maybe you could feel it start to happen, but I get nothing for this kind of issue.

Simple solution, stay away from the backs of the curbs. If you get more than half your car over the white line you're getting a penalty anyway, so it's just all around good advice. I have yet to have one pull me off into the grass like you describe though, but it happens quite often in other sims. I wouldn't expect multi-ton vehicles with full suspension to react the same way a go-kart does either, but maybe they would. I just know the curb issue is a big problem for me in other sims but so far it hasn't been a problem for me at all in PC2 which is nice for a change.

 

[mattikake]

^ sometimes you don't have to go to the edge of the kerb for this to happen. I find it's also a consistency problem for the two fast infield corners at the RBR. They don't have an inner lip as far as I can tell, just sausage kerbs.

No idea on the physics other than to say I'd have thought a lighter car would be affected more, given newtonian physics means a heavier object needs a greater force to make it change direction, but the force of direction change would be the same when on the limit of grip?

btw, when did kerb change to curb? Is this the same American thing that change tyre to tire?

curb
kəːb/
noun
noun: curb; plural noun: curbs; noun: curb bit; plural noun: curb bits

1. 1.
   a check or restraint on something.
   "plans to introduce tougher curbs on insider dealing"
   synonyms: restraint, restriction, check, brake, rein, control, limitation, limit, constraint, stricture;More
   
   
2. 2.
   a type of bit with a strap or chain attached which passes under a horse's lower jaw, used as a check.
3. 3.
   NORTH AMERICAN
   variant spelling of kerb.
4. 4.
   a swelling on the back of a horse's hock, caused by spraining a ligament.

kerb
kəːb/
noun
noun: curb

1. a stone edging to a pavement or raised path.

 

[Scaff]

^ sometimes you don't have to go to the edge of the kerb for this to happen. I find it's also a consistency problem for the two fast infield corners at the RBR. They don't have an inner lip as far as I can tell, just sausage kerbs.

No idea on the physics other than to say I'd have thought a lighter car would be affected more, given newtonian physics means a heavier object needs a greater force to make it change direction, but the force of direction change would be the same when on the limit of grip?

btw, when did kerb change to curb? Is this the same American thing that change tyre to tire?

curb
kəːb/
noun
noun: curb; plural noun: curbs; noun: curb bit; plural noun: curb bits

1. 1.
   a check or restraint on something.
   "plans to introduce tougher curbs on insider dealing"
   synonyms: restraint, restriction, check, brake, rein, control, limitation, limit, constraint, stricture;More
   
   
2. 2.
   a type of bit with a strap or chain attached which passes under a horse's lower jaw, used as a check.
3. 3.
   NORTH AMERICAN
   variant spelling of kerb.
4. 4.
   a swelling on the back of a horse's hock, caused by spraining a ligament.

kerb
kəːb/
noun
noun: curb

1. a stone edging to a pavement or raised path.

In regard to the physics a number of things can affect what happens (some of which will also apply to grass as well).

A lighter car will generally be more affected than a heavier one.
Stiffer suspension will be more affected than softer suspension (within limits).
Loaded wheels can be more affected than unloaded wheels
Driven wheels can be more affected than un-driven wheels
Suspension geometry, steering angle, yaw rate, slip angle and slip percentage will all have an effect (this and the last two also act within each other as well - to quite a degree).
Gear and throttle position will have an effect (lower gears and higher torque combinations in particular).
What the curb is painted with has an effect (textured pain is used at time to reduce issues - particularly in the rain)
Tyre compound and temp will have an effect

In essence however the straighter you are, the less throttle you have applied, the heavier and softer the suspension you are running, the better you will be able to run curbs.

However every title will have its issues at times and run into a combination of factors that will throw out the engine and do something odd.

 

[mattikake]

In essence however the straighter you are, the less throttle you have applied, the heavier and softer the suspension you are running, the better you will be able to run curbs.

So in other words it should be much much harder to be consistent in a kart, given a kart is never straight, always on the power and has no suspension!

 

[OdeFinn]

@mattikake, similar problems occurred on other games, bad ffb and "wrong" fov as reasons. Is there any chance to improve those on your end?

 

[Scaff]

So in other words it should be much much harder to be consistent in a kart, given a kart is never straight, always on the power and has no suspension!

Only if you ignore the rest of my post.

Karts naturally have a very low roll centre, which helps keep them stable under vertical displacement.

 

[BrandonW77]

btw, when did kerb change to curb? Is this the same American thing that change tyre to tire?

curb
kəːb/
noun
noun: curb; plural noun: curbs; noun: curb bit; plural noun: curb bits

1. 1.
   a check or restraint on something.
   "plans to introduce tougher curbs on insider dealing"
   synonyms: restraint, restriction, check, brake, rein, control, limitation, limit, constraint, stricture;More
   
   
2. 2.
   a type of bit with a strap or chain attached which passes under a horse's lower jaw, used as a check.
3. 3.
   NORTH AMERICAN
   variant spelling of kerb.
4. 4.
   a swelling on the back of a horse's hock, caused by spraining a ligament.

kerb
kəːb/
noun
noun: curb

1. a stone edging to a pavement or raised path.

No idea. I usually prefer "kerb" but I can't find a consensus on it (and in Murica everyone pretty much uses "curb"). I generally just use whatever version was already being used in the conversation, and in this case that was "curb".

 

[ozwheels]

The inside curbs are definitely improved over pCars 1, no doubt about it. However there are still some track and some curbs that do the same thing as pCars 1 and pull the front of the car towards the inside in an extremely non believeable way. I drive in chase cam so when it happens it looks very strange.

The grass is also extremely low grip for whatever reason. It definitely wasn’t like this in pCars 1 and the gravel seems to have the same grip as the grass now so it doesn’t really slow you down.

 

[Scaff]

Gravel isn't realistic in any title, as we can get out of it.

 

[2clicks]

What the curb is painted with has an effect (textured paint is used at time to reduce issues - particularly in the rain)

Is this actually simulated in the game? I don't have a wheel - just curious.

 

[Scaff]

Is this actually simulated in the game? I don't have a wheel - just curious.

It would mainly be noticeable in the wet and I've not yet noticed any difference, do would currently have to go with no.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Here we go. There's always at least one on every forum.

Don't turn this around on me when every thread you start is showing shoddy driving and car abuse and then blaming the game for it.

PCARS 2 really is the perfect game, not a thing wrong with it. The grass is modelled perfectly, shut up and L2D!

Don't be so melodramatic. There's plenty of issues to go around (especially on consoles). But this guy is clearly pushing an agenda/has an axe to grind.

But no worries, no more responses from me on his posts. 👍

 

[twitcher]

Don't turn this around on me when every thread you start is showing shoddy driving and car abuse and then blaming the game for it.

Don't be so melodramatic. There's plenty of issues to go around (especially on consoles). But this guy is clearly pushing an agenda/has an axe to grind.

But no worries, no more responses from me on his posts. 👍

He doesn't have an agenda This weird oversteer sensation is wide spread, well documented. Goes back to PCARS 1, and if carried over to PCARS 2.

 

[Lusitano]

Ok, I found the solution for our problem!

 

[ozwheels]

Ok, I found the solution for our problem!

What...

 

[Sentry87]

I get on the grass every once in a while. Let off the gas and keep it straight and you're fine

 

[MABlosfeld]

height of the car in relation to the floor (low / high) also makes a lot of difference

edit: I think certain surfaces (grass / gravel) could have a bit more bump, maybe there are bumps already but I have not noticed.

 

[Wayne Kerr]

the kerb thing could be settled down also via setup.

ran a jsp3 at cota and the car would literally get sucked into the turn going through the esses taking the small kerbs. changed the setup, took the same line, and it was a night and day difference. Entry of the esses in a df car is flat chat, but that "getting sucked into the corner" thing is tuneable. at least on my end of the pc version it is.

i'm not saying pcars 2 have the most real world like tire physics out there of all the games. Every title i've tried (ac, rf, rf2, ams and now pcars 2) have their own quirks and nuances and part of the fun is figuring that stuff out, but the changes react as they should and it doesn't take a huge change to make you feel the adjustment either.

 

[Motor City Hami]

As per title, I'm finding this stuff more lethal than a fully icy track,

The slightest 1/4 wheel on the grass and you're doomed. Ok, so don't put a wheel on the grass. Well I try but small mistakes happen, especially when you have a violently twisting wheel. It's like the grass is permanently wet and speaking of which, in the wet, the grass effect is the same as in the dry.

I've seen 1000's of real races, in dry conditions drivers get away with a little puff of grass or dirt flying up, but here it's instant spin city. It doesn't appear to be realistic. I've also seen this become a tactic with online races. You only need to push someone a tiny bit on the grass, then spend the next few seconds watching them trying to sort it out in your mirrors. It's a real harsh fun killer online. Oh and of course, the race director then gives you a penalty, like you need another after losing 5-10 seconds in a spin. I don't ever remember a real race where a driver got a warning for touching the grass and/or spinning.

Kerbs are bad too, particularly the inside kerb. Not at all convincing. They kind of suck you off the inside of the track... and onto the grass, and you're doomed again. I'm guessing this is a feature of having pro drivers help develop the game who don't make such mistakes to test it properly for authenticity, but the average joe is going to.

Admittedly I haven't run on grass IRL but a have touched grass in karts before with half a wheel and nothing particularly spectacular happens.

If the devs aim for maximum realism, anyone else think this needs to be looked at?

I kind of agree with you. Dry grass in PC2 does feel just like real world rain soaked grass while on racing slicks. I have been on slicks in the rain 11 times in my Spec Miata racing career and if you step you're back wheel off the surface on corner exit, you will loop quickly. I have also been four wheels off in the wet and there is a delicate balance between riding it out and spinning. If you recognize that you are going to miss the corner exit, it's best to go off with both outside tires with very little wheel input. It's your best chance at saving the corner - ride it out with very little steering. Same as with a four wheel off - have to be very, very easy on the inputs - you're not going to change direction in wet grass - just manage keeping the car pointed in a generally straight line projection, facing forward.

So I do think that PC2 got that sensation right, but it reminds me of wet grass, not dry. I have to be real world wet grass careful but in PC2 dry grass conditions. So I see your point. You can get away with far bigger off track lawn mowing in real life in the dry. Changing direction is generally possible in the dry in real life grass on slicks.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I kind of agree with you. Dry grass in PC2 does feel just like real world rain soaked grass while on racing slicks. I have been on slicks in the rain 11 times in my Spec Miata racing career and if you step you're back wheel off the surface on corner exit, you will loop quickly. I have also been four wheels off in the wet and there is a delicate balance between riding it out and spinning. If you recognize that you are going to miss the corner exit, it's best to go off with both outside tires with very little wheel input. It's your best chance at saving the corner - ride it out with very little steering. Same as with a four wheel off - have to be very, very easy on the inputs - you're not going to change direction in wet grass - just manage keeping the car pointed in a generally straight line projection, facing forward.

So I do think that PC2 got that sensation right, but it reminds me of wet grass, not dry. I have to be real world wet grass careful but in PC2 dry grass conditions. So I see your point. You can get away with far bigger off track lawn mowing in real life in the dry. Changing direction is generally possible in the dry in real life grass on slicks.

This is the second wettest race I have run while on slicks in the rain.



We all missed the weather. The storm was projected to go just south of the track, but the wind picked up and blew the storm right across the track as we entered the track for the pace lap. Not the best footage, but shows the example. At about the 3:45 mark, I retook the Spec Miata lead. It had been a steady rain until then, but the sky opened up and we were racing on slicks in a downpour. At the 5 minute mark, both me and the 2nd place Miata hit a stream of water now flowing across the track that wasn't there the lap before. I did my best to keep the car straight - rode it out with very little steering input. The 2nd place car tried to turn back toward the track and you can see him off to the left of the frame sliding backward. We both went the same direction, but me facing forward and continuing onto the track with little loss of time and him having to work his way from stopped to climbing up a slight hill in the wet.

I said it was my second wettest experience in the rain on slicks. The other one did not end in a class and overall win. It ended up with a hard crash from the lead at Mid-Ohio on lap four. I have the video here somewhere.

 

[RomKnight]

Grass is usually maintained IRL, hence, wet for the most part.

I recall seeing IMSA races (dry) and commentators always say (in a crash obviously) that grass is deadly.

Well, riding motorcycles I can assure you it is.

Don't recall that in a car, much less in a slick ofc.

Anyway, in game it's just one more material that it's equal across all tracks but I suppose we are to drive on TARMAC?!

Also, I recall still in pC1 when the sand (Laguna Seca in particular) really "drowns" you into it. If it was made like that (it's way "better" now) one going out and you'd be stuck there and race over (as it should) but for gameplay purposes...

I think a few should decide what type of game they want... and don't even try iRacing then...