GT Sport (Race C) and FIA race mentality

[Slo_Wass_Mike]

I almost exclusively play Sport mode and have begun racing FIA races recently. Last night in Manufacturer's was a good demonstration of what was bugging me subconsciously. Tsukuba which is not passing zone heavy really drove it home.

Now, a little about me. I am not a single lap outright pace guy. My qualifying is always mediocre at best. I'm usually about 1-1.4 second off of the top 10 times of the day. I tend to qualify at race pace. I run consistent lap times. I also have raced cars in real life for the last 10 years. I try to be very clean and fair in game. I am a real pain in the rear to pass. When I defend I only make a single defensive move. My style is to allow the overtaker to make a less than optimal decision. If they want the place they are going to need to work hard for it (assuming we are on the same strategy). I refuse to give positions up (once again assuming same pit strategy). When I attack it's the exact opposite. I will spend a fair amount of time making the lead car believe that I will "take" a big risky line in an effort to allow them the opportunity to make a poor decision and overreact in defending. If all the stars align and I get a win it's normally due to racecraft, fuel saving, and consistent pace.

So, I was defending my position coming in to T1 (Tsukuba) with 3 cars jostling for position behind me. The car immediately behind me after 4 laps of attempted overtakes barged through the corner using my car as a track guide which caused an off for me pushing me down 2 places. Then in T4 I had the exact same thing happen with the car immediately behind me causing another off and 2 more places for a less than acceptable finish (for where I was in the race) of 8th from a nice finish.

After the race I commented that "Push to pass doesn't mean what you think it does." To which the reply was "You should have let me pass, I was faster." The second guy who bumped me off said almost the exact same thing in reply. I agree that they were faster. The Evo and Toyota 86 should whoop the viper on that track. The mentality that "I'm faster you so you need to concede to me or I'll run you off" is, in my opinion, directly against what racing and racecraft is all about. I believe that too many people approach the game as multiple single lap time trials with moving obstacles on track instead of a test of skill over time.

I watch some streamers like Tidgney, F4H_Rosso and Z28 while I'm at work. Each of them have a different but solid approach to the game and each are fast drivers.

How do you think that PD and the community can help remove the mentality of "I'm faster you so you need to concede to me or I'll run you off" from sport mode and FIA races? I have a few ideas but I would love to hear this community's thoughts as there are some really good racers, really fast people, and really fair racers in here.

 

[UnkaD]

This is something that bugs me as well. I hate how overly aggressive some drivers are when there is tire-wear on. I like to maintain a consistent pace that is just fast enough without compromising my rubber. All the minute slides and squeals can really add up quickly over a few laps, and if you're keeping that aggressive style later in the run you are more susceptible to loosing that grip on the worn tires. Some folks behind aren't always too keen to follow that mentality.

I think a solution from PD would have to be a complete overhaul of the initial entry to sport mode. The safety video is a complete joke. We need something that breaks down basic racecraft, and part of that could include long-run strategies and how to adjust your driving to meet them. That and the basic idea that you don't win races by punting your opponents.

 

[John Crellin]

This is something that bugs me as well. I hate how overly aggressive some drivers are when there is tire-wear on. I like to maintain a consistent pace that is just fast enough without compromising my rubber. All the minute slides and squeals can really add up quickly over a few laps, and if you're keeping that aggressive style later in the run you are more susceptible to loosing that grip on the worn tires. Some folks behind aren't always too keen to follow that mentality.

I think a solution from PD would have to be a complete overhaul of the initial entry to sport mode. The safety video is a complete joke. We need something that breaks down basic racecraft, and part of that could include long-run strategies and how to adjust your driving to meet them. That and the basic idea that you don't win races by punting your opponents.

I gotta agree.
They need driving school to be an actual racing school not just a 'get comfortable with controller and physics' school.
Like they do with trail braking and driving line, they need to incorporate a driving clean in traffic lesson as well as overtake and defense lessons

 

[Crazy Taylor]

They could start by removing hazard lights. Overall the mentality will always be there in certain racers who possess it. Its not everyone who drives like that (thankfully), but just a few. Its a stigma that would be hard for PD to remove.

 

[Rinsky]

So, I was defending my position coming in to T1 (Tsukuba) with 3 cars jostling for position behind me. The car immediately behind me after 4 laps of attempted overtakes barged through the corner using my car as a track guide which caused an off for me pushing me down 2 places. Then in T4 I had the exact same thing happen with the car immediately behind me causing another off and 2 more places for a less than acceptable finish (for where I was in the race) of 8th from a nice finish.

So this kind of Behavior comes from people being fast but having no clue on how to race. If you are faster than the person in front of you it's quite easy to setup a pass several corners in advance. Executing a move like this lets you start setting up this pass well before you are at that spot and works 99% of the time.

But these types of racers you are talking about can't see past the corner in front of them and have no clue how to pass someone so they just barge thru or ram others out of the way. It's one of the most frustrating parts of sport mode. That mentality of I'm faster than you so you must get out of the way or I'm making you move.

There is so much more to racing than just winning and when you can successfully start planning and setting up a pass way before the spot your looking at to make the move then you pull it off with 100% success can be just as rewarding as winning. To bad not everyone understands this.

 

[TheNorfolkDad]

I’ve learned recently, after several months of racing, if a car is that much faster I will let him pass. I covered this in my latest video but basically I’ve found one of two things happens.

1. I adjust my line trying to hold my position, lose time, allow more players to catch up, this never ends well.

2. He gets pissed off with me defending and rams me off anyway.

This isn’t real life racing/track days, it’s a game where people have no respect towards other players they just want to win. The positive of allowing a faster player to pass, maybe not on a short track like Tsukuba but certainly a Monza or dragon trail, you can slipstream them. Great for fuel saving of on race c, also good for leaving the other players in your dust.

 

[Venster]

Unfortunately I don’t think you can, it’s a mentality thing. Some people get impatient and unfortunately no system will change that, even with the best penalty system around.

Similar to your story only I was the guy behind in my Tsukuba race. I made a mistake and found myself at the back. I eventually caught the back and had to follow behind for several laps, but I was patient and waited for several laps, I thought I was quicker but that doesn’t give me the right to barge past. Eventually they made a mistake and I got through and pulled away. I probably lost time but I didn’t give myself a clear opportunity so I had to wait, to me it feels better to pass this way, it’s easy to barge past but that isn’t racing to me.

As @ThePhantomAli says, it’s sometimes a better strategy to let them through, give a lap of defending perhaps then if still on your bumper let them go. Best case you stick with them and save fuel, worse case they pull away in which case you’ve probably done the right thing letting them through.

Thing with this game you tend to be matched with the same drivers quite often, so try to learn the aggressive ones from the patient. Also if you are courteous to others they remember that and give you the same respect.

 

[kjeldsen]

How can he be faster and not be in front of you.. that does not make sense..

 

[GTPorsche]

How can he be faster and not be in front of you.. that does not make sense..

With longer races, pit stop strategies play out different, so it's easy that a faster car can end up behind you at some point in the race.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

How can he be faster and not be in front of you.. that does not make sense..

- he didn't put much effort into qualifying
- you set a golden lap at qualifying yet can't maintain the pace
- he crashed earlier
- he got punted off the track earlier
- he had to serve a penalty
- he pitted a lap earlier
- you abused your tires too much
- he was fuel saving first, full power last laps
- you are currently fuel saving
Or he got caught in your draft and only thinks he's faster.

The last one is dangerous to let past as they'll either slow you down by blocking or slip up trying to outrun you and crash into you. Although it can also be advantageous to let the aggressive drifter go by when you're behind another car as then he'll likely take out the car you were waiting to pass cleanly.

 

[tofuhero]

I believe that too many people approach the game as multiple single lap time trials with moving obstacles on track instead of a test of skill over time.

That's unsurprising, considering that's what GT's single player mode basically has been for the past 20 years.

The lack of a Racing School in GTS, teaching concepts with videos like the Circuit Challenges and then applying that knowledge in racing missions, is the single biggest failure in executing their vision for this game. The game doesn't teach how to race cleanly or how to race well, it just throws everyone into the meat grinder. Why didn't they invest the same amount of attention and care to the mode the game is named after as they did with the Scapes feature?

I think people also need to be incentivized to race cleanly and fairly, and something like DriveClub's kudos system with moment-to-moment bonuses (cash?) for things like "clean overtake" or "clean pit exit" could work well as a carrot for good behavior instead of just beating people over the head with a stick.

 

[Krypton78]

What makes me really angry is when in the first lap the driver behind me overtakes me with raming or divebombing because he thinks I'm slower. But I'm not slower, in fact I am keeping safety distance to the guy in front of me.
After a while it comes out that HE is slower then me. But fortunately for him, I try to be fair and do not the same to him what he did to me.

 

[Tom swan]

I almost exclusively play Sport mode and have begun racing FIA races recently. Last night in Manufacturer's was a good demonstration of what was bugging me subconsciously. Tsukuba which is not passing zone heavy really drove it home.

Now, a little about me. I am not a single lap outright pace guy. My qualifying is always mediocre at best. I'm usually about 1-1.4 second off of the top 10 times of the day. I tend to qualify at race pace. I run consistent lap times. I also have raced cars in real life for the last 10 years. I try to be very clean and fair in game. I am a real pain in the rear to pass. When I defend I only make a single defensive move. My style is to allow the overtaker to make a less than optimal decision. If they want the place they are going to need to work hard for it (assuming we are on the same strategy). I refuse to give positions up (once again assuming same pit strategy). When I attack it's the exact opposite. I will spend a fair amount of time making the lead car believe that I will "take" a big risky line in an effort to allow them the opportunity to make a poor decision and overreact in defending. If all the stars align and I get a win it's normally due to racecraft, fuel saving, and consistent pace.

So, I was defending my position coming in to T1 (Tsukuba) with 3 cars jostling for position behind me. The car immediately behind me after 4 laps of attempted overtakes barged through the corner using my car as a track guide which caused an off for me pushing me down 2 places. Then in T4 I had the exact same thing happen with the car immediately behind me causing another off and 2 more places for a less than acceptable finish (for where I was in the race) of 8th from a nice finish.

After the race I commented that "Push to pass doesn't mean what you think it does." To which the reply was "You should have let me pass, I was faster." The second guy who bumped me off said almost the exact same thing in reply. I agree that they were faster. The Evo and Toyota 86 should whoop the viper on that track. The mentality that "I'm faster you so you need to concede to me or I'll run you off" is, in my opinion, directly against what racing and racecraft is all about. I believe that too many people approach the game as multiple single lap time trials with moving obstacles on track instead of a test of skill over time.

I watch some streamers like Tidgney, F4H_Rosso and Z28 while I'm at work. Each of them have a different but solid approach to the game and each are fast drivers.

How do you think that PD and the community can help remove the mentality of "I'm faster you so you need to concede to me or I'll run you off" from sport mode and FIA races? I have a few ideas but I would love to hear this community's thoughts as there are some really good racers, really fast people, and really fair racers in here.

I agree the mentality of most is use your car for breaks before they use their own and the penalty system in here is the biggest crok of crap I have ever seen

 

[Sven Jurgens]

What makes me really angry is when in the first lap the driver behind me overtakes me with raming or divebombing because he thinks I'm slower. But I'm not slower, in fact I am keeping safety distance to the guy in front of me.
After a while it comes out that HE is slower then me. But fortunately for him, I try to be fair and do not the same to him what he did to me.

Some people have that idea in T1 already, especially on Monza. The penalty system doesn't help either.

One race tonight on Monza I start on pole and take the defensive line on the inside, brake just after the 150 marker, sweet spot for starting on pole. However second and third place both try to out brake me, 2nd on my left, 3rd trying to shoot by on the right where there isn't any chance to make the corner. I want to let 3rd place shoot by as he's just going to crash into the blocks, yet second place tries to save his late braking attempt by turning into me early, knocks me into the 3rd place car trying to fly by which slows him down just enough to make the corner, then 2nd gives me an extra bump so he can pass as well. What does the game do, it gives me 9 sec penalty, the other 2 got 1 sec...

I pass them cleanly in the first 2 laps, however one of them still hangs on to my draft long enough to tap me again in T1 3rd lap, luckily square from behind so I only get 1 second extra. Then he proceeds to drive inside my car when he tries to out brake me again in the second chicane. I guess the game had enough of him bumping me. Luckily he wiped out in the next corner, probably couldn't see very well while half inside my car... Fun racing with minus 10 sec on the clock, plus 15 SR loss for that race. I still managed to win by increasing the gap to second enough to scrub the 10 seconds at the finish.

I agree the mentality of most is use your car for breaks before they use their own and the penalty system in here is the biggest crok of crap I have ever seen

Sometimes it works, not in the above example, yet in another race one driver used me as a brake in T1 and in the next chicane. He ended up with 20 sec penalty and disappeared to the back. Unfortunately I still ended up with 2 sec as well next to losing time from the bumps.

I've also noticed a new problem. Sometimes neither party gets a penalty when you get rear ended. Yet twice today someone bumps into me from behind pushing me over the overly sensitive Monza curbs. Instead of the 1 sec "you too" penalty now I got the instant 2.4 sec shortcut penalty and the attacker nothing....

The worst was another out brake attempt by someone on the outside in T1, steers into me too soon and the game gives me 10 sec penalty and him nothing (B/S driver vs A/S me) How is it possible that the attacker at the start of the race in T1 is in the right according to the game... I was in 2nd closely following first, he was in third trying to drive through me...

My mindset for T1 is first to not hit the car in front, second to watch for dive bombs, third to make a speedy exit to clear room for who is behind. Yet for most it seems T1 is the place to quickly gain a bunch of places. The problem is, thanks to the penalty system that often works. It would be better to start races with the yellow flag out, no passing until after T1. (Of course that would be abused as well)

 

[xxxman1]

What makes me really angry is when in the first lap the driver behind me overtakes me with raming or divebombing because he thinks I'm slower. But I'm not slower, in fact I am keeping safety distance to the guy in front of me.
After a while it comes out that HE is slower then me. But fortunately for him, I try to be fair and do not the same to him what he did to me.

It is always my case. For example, last night at Maggiore started at P4. Followed P1-P3 for the first 3 laps without any problem (without flashing penalty). We kept a safe distance among us. During that 3 laps I noticed the P5 became impatient. On lap 4 T1, i took the inside line to turn left and kept left after the corner as we were side by side. I saw P5 go to the grass in the mirror and slowed down. So I took the inside line again at the hairpin. All of sudden I was T-boned by P5 as he took the "more" insider line (actually on the grass) for that corner. Got 1s penalty myself (he got 10s) and the tracing of P1-P3 was over. Already 4s behind, it was only 0.5s before T1. All the fun was gone.

I want to point out that I quit enjoy the tracing game without overtaking. I even got faster lap time (faster then PB) in the race by following racers who are slight faster than me or have similar pace. The way to learn the racing line and defending skill are one of the great part in Sport mode. Offline mode cannot offer this training imo.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

It has crossed my mind that the fact that we're now in FIA preseason may have increased both participation and overall aggression level. The fields I've been in have been more compressed time-wise than the last few test seasons and it may be putting drivers in more battles than they're accustomed to. That and the stakes are higher now which means people may start doing things they haven't before.

I do want to point out that racecraft is one of those things that even if the game did a better job of teaching, it is something that ultimately requires time and effort to develop. Not everyone is willing to do that and there's the reality that people's standards on what is considered good racecraft is going to vary. Combined with a penalty system that stumbles in developing a consistent baseline of acceptable behavior, it can get messy out there.

I’ve learned recently, after several months of racing, if a car is that much faster I will let him pass. I covered this in my latest video but basically I’ve found one of two things happens.

1. I adjust my line trying to hold my position, lose time, allow more players to catch up, this never ends well.

2. He gets pissed off with me defending and rams me off anyway.

This isn’t real life racing/track days, it’s a game where people have no respect towards other players they just want to win. The positive of allowing a faster player to pass, maybe not on a short track like Tsukuba but certainly a Monza or dragon trail, you can slipstream them. Great for fuel saving of on race c, also good for leaving the other players in your dust.

Another way to put it, know which battles to fight. Each one has its risk and rewards and making the right decisions will lead to better results. It's not always easy to figure out what to do but I try to think about my overall lap time and what will keep that the lowest possible.

What makes me really angry is when in the first lap the driver behind me overtakes me with raming or divebombing because he thinks I'm slower. But I'm not slower, in fact I am keeping safety distance to the guy in front of me.
After a while it comes out that HE is slower then me. But fortunately for him, I try to be fair and do not the same to him what he did to me.

It's one of those issues that mimics real life. The start of the race is one of the prime opportunities to overtake and there will be those that will take advantage of those that just want to make it through the corner clean.

I want to point out that I quit enjoy the tracing game without overtaking. I even got faster lap time (faster then PB) in the race by following racers who are slight faster than me or have similar pace. The way to learn the racing line and defending skill are one of the great part in Sport mode. Offline mode cannot offer this training imo.

That can be good practice since you get into a rhythm and you find speed through consistency. I know I developed mine throughout all the years of having to chase aliens the best I can before they always slip away.

 

[Manasseh257NSX]

My whole issue with passing, is people try to take a line they can't commit to or they don't have total control over their car. I can't tell you how many pointless penalties I've gotten due to a person who tries to pass me (usually on the inside) and doesn't stick with the line. OR my all time favorite, you try to pass somebody who can't keep a steady line or keep their car under control. In result, the only way of passing them is hoping they'll mess up.

@Slo_Wass_Mike me and you are similar. My race pace exceeds my qualifying as I am a horrible hot lapper. So it becomes a hard task to try to pass and at the same time defend.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

My whole issue with passing, is people try to take a line they can't commit to or they don't have total control over their car. I can't tell you how many pointless penalties I've gotten due to a person who tries to pass me (usually on the inside) and doesn't stick with the line. OR my all time favorite, you try to pass somebody who can't keep a steady line or keep their car under control. In result, the only way of passing them is hoping they'll mess up.

@Slo_Wass_Mike me and you are similar. My race pace exceeds my qualifying as I am a horrible hot lapper. So it becomes a hard task to try to pass and at the same time defend.

I usually find it a blessing when my race pace exceeds my qualifying. That means that I often quickly lose the people starting behind me and have plenty extra speed to play with to cleanly over take the car in front of me. But indeed starting behind someone that drives erratically through every corner while the car behind you doesn't have the patience to set up a clean pass is a recipe for incidents. Usually they stick a nose next to your bumper without any plan or place to go even if they would manage to pass. Or they simply bump into me from behind, I guess expecting me to drive through the car in front of me. Just get out of the way and let him drive into the erratic car in front and pass them both a few corners later.

I'm never in a hurry to pass. I find it more fun to stick close to someone studying their driving pattern and set up a clean pass after a corner they struggle at. I'm not a fan of out braking, that so often goes wrong. Faster corner exit plus draft pass before the next corner is the way to go.

One thing I do not understand is why people bother to try to out brake or dive pass on the last turn of Monza (when it's not the last lap). It's risky and completely pointless as you'll just be passed again on the long straight. It's the same at the long straight on nurb 24h. You've got to time your pass halfway down the straight, it makes zero sense passing in the corner or at the start of the straight. Add Tokyo East, Mount Panorama and Bluemoon infield to that list. The game can really use a tutorial on how and where to pass in the track experience. Of course as long as the game lets people get away with weave blocking and brake checking.... I don't though, report.

 

[Furinkazen]

I've never been an especially fast hot-lapper, preferring to use qualifying sessions to just get myself used to the car and track, especially if i've not done any running beforehand. Probably my greatest asset driving wise is my consistency and vision, which a few years back on GT5 & 6 was somewhat patchy. My worst thing, being used to racing touring cars and short events, was pushing too much, making a stupid mistake like clipping a gravel trap and spinning, and then wrecking more and more over-driving afterwards being annoyed and frustrated as hell. That's something I reckon i've improved one as well is judgement, not immediately going for a gap that doesn't exist. Seriously those guys, the Senna wannabe's, deserve a massive slap in the face and a tutorial on how to drive, because it's used as justification for some of the most stupid divebombs and driving ever known.

 

[Macboyilija]

Great post @Slo_Wass_Mike !

You are right that in no way you are obliged to let someone pass unless you have a Blue flag waving. But you have people that may be faster than you. But there are also people that are way faster than you. Holding them back can get yourself into trouble as @ThePhantomAli stated so clearly. Still you are right that they need to pass you and not you letting them pass.

What makes me really angry is when in the first lap the driver behind me overtakes me with raming or divebombing because he thinks I'm slower. But I'm not slower, in fact I am keeping safety distance to the guy in front of me.

This is soooo annoying. As if they dont understand you qualified before them so you probably are faster. For Gods sake let me at least pass the first corner to show you. This is clear PD fault for not making this a must see race etiquette. Maybe to prohibit first corner takeover would sort this issue out. In fact, it would solve a way more than that.

 

[TheGeologist]

- he didn't put much effort into qualifying
- you set a golden lap at qualifying yet can't maintain the pace
- he crashed earlier
- he got punted off the track earlier
- he had to serve a penalty
- he pitted a lap earlier
- you abused your tires too much
- he was fuel saving first, full power last laps
- you are currently fuel saving
Or he got caught in your draft and only thinks he's faster.

The last one is dangerous to let past as they'll either slow you down by blocking or slip up trying to outrun you and crash into you. Although it can also be advantageous to let the aggressive drifter go by when you're behind another car as then he'll likely take out the car you were waiting to pass cleanly.

One more to add to the list. Some people are just bad qualifiers. I'm one of them. I would estimate I finish at least 2 spots better than I qualify 90% of the time. I cant make one perfect lap very well, but I'm very good at making several near perfect laps. My race pace ends up exceeding those in front of me.

 

[NommyNom]

What makes me really angry is when in the first lap the driver behind me overtakes me with raming or divebombing because he thinks I'm slower. But I'm not slower, in fact I am keeping safety distance to the guy in front of me.
After a while it comes out that HE is slower then me. But fortunately for him, I try to be fair and do not the same to him what he did to me.

this happens too often, those first lap heroes who have no patience. First few laps is going to be a bit slower due to traffic, dive bombing the first turn isn't going to help you, you're just ruining others races.

I agree the mentality of most is use your car for breaks before they use their own and the penalty system in here is the biggest crok of crap I have ever seen

the penalty system does need a bit of work and i understand it's difficult but it's no excuse to use others as brakes. I have raced with friends in lobbys who are lower DR than I and they'll do that to me, then say "why did you brake so early?" or my favorite: "should'nt have left the door open!" i'll catch up, keep it clean, they mess up, i go to pass, and get rammed off the track. thankfully this doesn't happen in FIA racing, I like nice/dirty lobby racing after cup racing, so much less stress.

 

[vvise]

Sounds like I race a similar style to you. This is a tough spot, I don't think you can really fix it. I find the higher up you get, the more respectful drivers are though. The less of those types of shenanigans you see.

The annoying part is that defending does make you slower so the driver feels justified.

If there's anything good about the newer more aggressive penalties it's that usually in your scenario that type of pass results in a 5s to them and 1s to you, and you can usually finish the race within 4s of that driver and still take the win.

 

[Slo_Wass_Mike]

I was a little apprehensive about posting this here but the discussion has been fantastic and I thank ya'll for that (I'm from Texas). I'm new to the online sim racing world. I played GT 6 offline with the exception of the challenges and one incredible group of racers that I exclusively raced with nightly for several months.

@Rinsky I completely agree with you.

@ThePhantomAli @OutlawQuadrnt @Macboyilija Yes, I agree completely with picking the battles to fight smartly. I should have mentioned that I will pick battles. If someone way ahead of me has a big off and I get past them and they quickly close the gap I concede. No use in fighting that. It destroys both of our races. I just wish sometimes those racers would be a little more patient as I do not want to destroy a run just to allow them to pass by putting my car in a less than stable state. I think that most drivers aren't used to someone who will move to the side and lift when it's smart for them to do it. And this is where the community can get better but I believe that having that confidence will only come with familiarity with the individual driver. But if I've spent multiple laps with the same guy putting a few tenths or being almost even each lap, he's gotta earn it (or punt me....).

That's unsurprising, considering that's what GT's single player mode basically has been for the past 20 years.

The lack of a Racing School in GTS, teaching concepts with videos like the Circuit Challenges and then applying that knowledge in racing missions, is the single biggest failure in executing their vision for this game. The game doesn't teach how to race cleanly or how to race well, it just throws everyone into the meat grinder. Why didn't they invest the same amount of attention and care to the mode the game is named after as they did with the Scapes feature?

I think people also need to be incentivized to race cleanly and fairly, and something like DriveClub's kudos system with moment-to-moment bonuses (cash?) for things like "clean overtake" or "clean pit exit" could work well as a carrot for good behavior instead of just beating people over the head with a stick.

This is really great insight. Everything except for the longer races in the game rewards, encourages, and enforces the hotlapping mentality and doesn't teach distance racing or strategy. A racecraft school would be brilliant, especially if it were mandatory to pass prior to competing in the FIA races.

The kudos system (which I'm not familiar with but sounds nice) seems like a good option. Perhaps a monetary penalty in credit and or mileage points for unruly behaviour could be some incentive to drive cleaner online.

I think that if they can ever get collision detection properly figured out I would love to see pit penalties for gross misconduct or an accumulation of penalties. The problem with the current penalty system is that someone can punt you into a massive loss of time that you cannot recover from and ultimately still benefits the punter post penalty.

I wish that we could give "clean driving" acknowledgement to people post-race for FIA or Sport Mode races. It could be something simple like a Facebook thumbs up or sad face that would appear next to your name on pre-race and post-race boards. This would encourage people or warn you. Imagine seeing someone qualify directly behind you with a ton of sad faces. You'd approach the start a little more cautiously I believe.

 

[cleanLX]

Great thread.
I agree that more focused tutorials/missions would help... but... it's only going to help those that already have a "racing" mindset get off to a better start in the game.
The "gamers" are going to crush the tutorials/missions to get their precious fantasy trophy, then go "play" sport mode with the same "I'm faster" attitude and ram crash push punt their merry way around the track.

In all seriousness... what happened to patch 1.13 penalties?
The racing got incredibly clean in a very short time.
But, many of those who are "ranked" as "fast" complained... hmmm...

I honestly believe the only way to purge the "you need to let me through" behavior is to implement a better penalty system.
1.13 seemed to be doing just that. Too bad the "fast" racers couldn't cope.

Edit to add...
I also think qualifying should be changed to best average of 5 consecutive clean laps.
That would throw a bunch of the one lap wonders out the window.

Edit again, to add more...
Also believe that qualifying is mandatory to race... aka, no qualify, no race.

Asbestos suit is on.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Great thread.
I agree that more focused tutorials/missions would help... but... it's only going to help those that already have a "racing" mindset get off to a better start in the game.
The "gamers" are going to crush the tutorials/missions to get their precious fantasy trophy, then go "play" sport mode with the same "I'm faster" attitude and ram crash push punt their merry way around the track.

In all seriousness... what happened to patch 1.13 penalties?
The racing got incredibly clean in a very short time.
But, many of those who are "ranked" as "fast" complained... hmmm...

I honestly believe the only way to purge the "you need to let me through" behavior is to implement a better penalty system.
1.13 seemed to be doing just that. Too bad the "fast" racers couldn't cope.

Edit to add...
I also think qualifying should be changed to best average of 5 consecutive clean laps.
That would throw a bunch of the one lap wonders out the window.

Edit again, to add more...
Also believe that qualifying is mandatory to race... aka, no qualify, no race.

Asbestos suit is on.

I hate those kinds of people you described in your first statement. I loathe them. The sad part is you're so bang on with their description it's not even funny. Although, who am I to talk seeing that I hold my fantasy DR quite dearly

I loved the 1.13 penalties. Looking back at it now, it's not the best system ever. It was overly sensitive and it was a 10 second penalty galore. But from how I see it, it's this huge imperfection of the 1.13 system that made for some very clean racing. So yeah for me I'm all go for overly sensitive systems as long as the same penalties apply across all DR ranges.

I don't agree with you on the second part though. Not that I see anything wrong with it, but it's just that while I can string 5 very fast laps together, I don't like seeing the gap between my current time and my best in real time, which is why I restart my quali instead of running hundreds of laps. If they give me the option to remove the real-time gap measurement, I'm good for it I can see why people would disagree here other than my reason though, which is mainly time constraints

3rd statement, fully agree. Learn the track first before you race. I mean yeah time constraints I guess but surely you have enough time to get at least one lap in to get a feel for the combo while waiting for matchmaking right?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Great thread.
I agree that more focused tutorials/missions would help... but... it's only going to help those that already have a "racing" mindset get off to a better start in the game.
The "gamers" are going to crush the tutorials/missions to get their precious fantasy trophy, then go "play" sport mode with the same "I'm faster" attitude and ram crash push punt their merry way around the track.

In all seriousness... what happened to patch 1.13 penalties?
The racing got incredibly clean in a very short time.
But, many of those who are "ranked" as "fast" complained... hmmm...

I honestly believe the only way to purge the "you need to let me through" behavior is to implement a better penalty system.
1.13 seemed to be doing just that. Too bad the "fast" racers couldn't cope.

Edit to add...
I also think qualifying should be changed to best average of 5 consecutive clean laps.
That would throw a bunch of the one lap wonders out the window.

Edit again, to add more...
Also believe that qualifying is mandatory to race... aka, no qualify, no race.

Asbestos suit is on.

5 laps qualifying before the race mandatory, you crazy! I only do 1 or 2 to remind me of the braking points before racing.

What it needs to do is increase the penalties for T1 by a whole lot and shift the blame towards the people coming from behind. It's ridiculous to start on pole and get 10 sec penalty from someone not braking in time attempting to overtake half the field in T1. That should be instant DQ. Forcing people to qualify is not going to change that behavior.

Qualifying with your best lap of the day is flawed though, starting position should be based on race pace, not the result of hours of hot lapping. Average of your last 5 fastest lap in the race would be a better way to determine start position, yet as you see on here, people are quite addicted to qualifying for the leader boards.

I don't mind the one lap wonders so much, gives me some easy passes If the system was perfect every race would become a snooze parade. Penalties do need improvement to shift the dive pass behavior to a cleaner style of overtaking.

Plus penalties simply need to be taken to the finish or extra pit time as half the incidents occur from cars slowing down on the track where they shouldn't. I've seen so many people now deliberately braking a bit early of lingering after a corner to shave off a penalty a bit at a time, just to go solid again right in front of you. For starters the penalty time should not count down when you're on the racing line, in a corner, near pit entry, pit exit, finish line. I would say, exclude first and last lap for serving penalties at all and serve penalty time while in the pit. Remove the penalty time increasing for those 2 laps obviously.

Actually just make it a mandatory pit stop and go if the penalty time exceeds the maximum, if not add to finish time. Atm it's often used as a strategic tool.

 

[DriftMethod]

I don't agree with you on the second part though. Not that I see anything wrong with it, but it's just that while I can string 5 very fast laps together, I don't like seeing the gap between my current time and my best in real time, which is why I restart my quali instead of running hundreds of laps. If they give me the option to remove the real-time gap measurement, I'm good for it I can see why people would disagree here other than my reason though, which is mainly time constraints

Just curious, why don't you like the time gap display? Too distracting? Additional pressure? Allergic to red and blue numbers?

I love that time gap display! I know it's hotlapper mentality, but if I'm behind my best lap, I push a little harder or experiment a bit to see if I can improve.

What bothers me is when I make a mistake, I have to decide if I want to do a whole lap to save the timer or restart to save time and lose the timer.

edit:
@Sven Jurgens I disagree on the qualifying. This is racing, it's about going fast. Qualifying is always about the fastest lap possible. It is artificial that you can use the same qualifying time all day, but the alternative is qualifying every race and that means less races per hour. Setting the grid based on race pace is too complicated and introduces way too many variables. Punishes people that only do one race, which race are you getting this average from, not fair with people hitting you and ruining race laps that kills your average, not fair to use drafting to go faster, etc.

 

[Mirror_man]

I almost exclusively play Sport mode and have begun racing FIA races recently. Last night in Manufacturer's was a good demonstration of what was bugging me subconsciously. Tsukuba which is not passing zone heavy really drove it home.

Now, a little about me. I am not a single lap outright pace guy. My qualifying is always mediocre at best. I'm usually about 1-1.4 second off of the top 10 times of the day. I tend to qualify at race pace. I run consistent lap times. I also have raced cars in real life for the last 10 years. I try to be very clean and fair in game. I am a real pain in the rear to pass. When I defend I only make a single defensive move. My style is to allow the overtaker to make a less than optimal decision. If they want the place they are going to need to work hard for it (assuming we are on the same strategy). I refuse to give positions up (once again assuming same pit strategy). When I attack it's the exact opposite. I will spend a fair amount of time making the lead car believe that I will "take" a big risky line in an effort to allow them the opportunity to make a poor decision and overreact in defending. If all the stars align and I get a win it's normally due to racecraft, fuel saving, and consistent pace.

So, I was defending my position coming in to T1 (Tsukuba) with 3 cars jostling for position behind me. The car immediately behind me after 4 laps of attempted overtakes barged through the corner using my car as a track guide which caused an off for me pushing me down 2 places. Then in T4 I had the exact same thing happen with the car immediately behind me causing another off and 2 more places for a less than acceptable finish (for where I was in the race) of 8th from a nice finish.

After the race I commented that "Push to pass doesn't mean what you think it does." To which the reply was "You should have let me pass, I was faster." The second guy who bumped me off said almost the exact same thing in reply. I agree that they were faster. The Evo and Toyota 86 should whoop the viper on that track. The mentality that "I'm faster you so you need to concede to me or I'll run you off" is, in my opinion, directly against what racing and racecraft is all about. I believe that too many people approach the game as multiple single lap time trials with moving obstacles on track instead of a test of skill over time.

I watch some streamers like Tidgney, F4H_Rosso and Z28 while I'm at work. Each of them have a different but solid approach to the game and each are fast drivers.

How do you think that PD and the community can help remove the mentality of "I'm faster you so you need to concede to me or I'll run you off" from sport mode and FIA races? I have a few ideas but I would love to hear this community's thoughts as there are some really good racers, really fast people, and really fair racers in here.

I.. so much agree with you... that it ...Hurts!!!!!!!

 

[cleanLX]

Qualifying... the 5 laps... My reasoning...
In real life qualifying is indeed all about fastest pace... without destroying your car. (corse you also get to run qualifying setup that destroys tires in 2 laps, with low fuel, and alternate tire compounds... but that's besides the point)
Risk, in real life is adhered to... even during qualifying.
In game, lets be honest, during qualifying, there is no risk... smash into the wall, massively cut a corner... no worries have another go.
This perpetuates the "pace mentality" we see in the races.
Force average of 5 consecutive clean laps... and people will place risk into their toolbox of hot-lapping.
Really doesn't take long to put 5 laps together... unless you're one of the ones going off track every few laps by going too fast with your fingers crossed for that one mystical lap where you somehow stay on track.
It's amusing that folks would not have time to put 5 laps down (less than 15 minutes?), but have time to race for 2+ hours... lots will race all day...