GT Tuning Skills (An Honest Question)

[Sphinx]

I may live to regret posting this but I honestly believe that it is a valid question, and after having a look around I don't think it's been asked before.

I’ve just been reading a number of threads in this section of the GTP forum such as this one here, and found that many posts were very informative in terms of technical detail & know-how in setting up a GT car. 👍

To be honest I don’t normally venture into this area much but when I do, it always leaves me to believe that you guys are the bee’s knees in setting up a GT car. However, I also always end up asking myself the same old question, which is:

If these guys are so hot in setting up GT cars then why don’t the top GT driver’s ever use the vast amount of knowledge, technical detail and settings that are posted here?

Or do they?

Maybe I'm missing the point?

I know that sounds like a rather rude question and forgive me if anyone is offended by it. I certainly don’t intend for it to be rude or anything else for that matter, it’s just something that I’ve always wondered about and have only just managed to build up enough courage to ask the question

Flame or enlighten this poor soul as you wish

 

[Scaff]

I know that sounds like a rather rude question and forgive me if anyone is offended by it. I certainly don’t intend for it to be rude or anything else for that matter, it’s just something that I’ve always wondered about and have only just managed to build up enough courage to ask the question

Flame or enlighten this poor soul as you wish

Certainly not offended by it at all, and the honest answer (from my own perspective) is that I have no accurate idea.

All I can talk about really is feedback I've had from my own settings guides (which has generally been good) and the PMs I get from time to time for assistance.

I know that a few of my setting have helped people out from time to time and I did get involved on the set-up side for the Nurburgring Weekly Race Series when that was running.

Beyond that its hard to say, however the GT series has always been a bit limited in the tuning department and its actually quite difficult to produce a really awful set-up.

I have to say that personally I do it just for the fun of it, its an area I have a massive interest in and enjoy playing around with, if others find what I write of benefit its a bonus.

I just look forward to the day when the GT series actually starts to take 'real' tuning seriously and actually make us work to get it right, something along the lines of Richard Burns Rally.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Mt. Lynx]

This certainly is not easy to answer, and there are possibly several answers to this question.

I may live to regret posting this but I honestly believe that it is a valid question, and after having a look around I don't think it's been asked before.

I’ve just been reading a number of threads in this section of the GTP forum such as this one here, and found that many posts were very informative in terms of technical detail & know-how in setting up a GT car. 👍

To be honest I don’t normally venture into this area much but when I do, it always leaves me to believe that you guys are the bee’s knees in setting up a GT car. However, I also always end up asking myself the same old question, which is:

If these guys are so hot in setting up GT cars then why don’t the top GT driver’s ever use the vast amount of knowledge, technical detail and settings that are posted here?

Or do they?

I believe there are a few different types of tuners. Some, like myself, who like to share their experiences and views. Then there are those who believe a setup should be kept a secret, and they do not want to tell anyone why or how they are so fast.
I´m certainly not a slow driver, but I´m nowhere near the very best. This however, has very little to do with my skills as a tuner, but rather with how I drive!

There are also those who only gives you hints on tuning, instead of entire setups. These are more like "teachers", and are probably the ones you should listen to.

So why do I post setups? Simply because that is what I myself once upon a time went looking for! They were scarce at best, so by providing setups, I hope to point someone else in the right direction!

Maybe I'm missing the point?

I know that sounds like a rather rude question and forgive me if anyone is offended by it. I certainly don’t intend for it to be rude or anything else for that matter, it’s just something that I’ve always wondered about and have only just managed to build up enough courage to ask the question

Flame or enlighten this poor soul as you wish

Maybe some of us are not that competitive either. I have no need whatsoever to have my name on any leaderboard. I´m only here for the fun!

 

[eg6_dude]

Really, who knows what kind of set-ups the individuals on the leaderboard run. I honestly can say that I do alot of testing to back up the setups that I have posted or will be posting. When I post something I am confident that for my driving style this is the fastest possible setup for the car. if the people on the leaderboards do not share the same driving style then maybe that setup would be garbage to them, I don't know. The reason that I do all the testing and tuning work is for fun, and so other people who don't have as much knowledge or experience don't have to. I myself am a very good driver and tuner( I think) in GT4 and have no desire to be on the leaderboard (like Team666 said) , but would be more then happy to help someone else get there! Whoever chooses to benefit from my setups or not is up to them and doesn't concern me. I just try to help those who ask for it or want it!

 

[Der Alta]

This is something that I've struggled with as well.

In all my GT driving, I usually find a setting that is about 75%. If I had more time, I could tweak the other 25% to get where I have a perfect car/track set-up. Problem being, it usually isn't the setup where my shortcoming is.

For instance, I could be clipping a 1'08 around midfield in a hopped up viper. If I spend 4 hours tweaking the settings, I could manage to trim it down to a 1'07. However, if I pay more attention to my lines and spend that 4 hours adjusting my lines, I'll get a better time.

That is my thought on why some of hte top notch racers don't use the settings posted here, or post their settings either.

With the vast adjustments you can make to a setup in GT4 getting "almost" there is good enough for a top time.

Then again, "almost" only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and Nuclear Warfare.

 

[XGT Taipan]

Shpinx: In reply to your question;

I've found that some of the reports given on these forums don't always suite my driving style.

99% of the time I totally ignore any setup advice given because there are so many different variables to take into account;

Controller type: Analog Stick
Digital Pad
DF Wheel
DFP Wheel
Other Controller
Other Wheel

Driving Style: Auto
Manual

Left-foot Brake
Straight line Breaking
Turn-in Breaking

Aggressive Attacking Line
Passive Drift
Aggressive Drift

etc etc....

Also remember to read the whole thread (briefly), because sometimes you will find that a perticular style for seting up a car is in preference for a certain race, eg. Qualifying, Sprint, Enduro - and also each individual circuit has it's own perticular setup.

There is so much individuality in each persons preferences and style. The only way to get the right setup for you is to improvise yourself. Alternativily you could use these forums to their total extent and explain where you're having problems, eg: "I am having trouble with my *CAR* around *CIRCUIT*, it is far too bumpy and I cannot control it. What can I change in my setup to fix the problem."

Also remember that sometimes a problem can be flaunted rather than fixed. If you work your style around a car that you feel you are having problems with setting up, sometimes the end result can be better than expected.

Take notes of what you read here, but don't think that it's always the RIGHT way.

Cheers, Taipan.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Shpinx: In reply to your question;

I've found that some of the reports given on these forums don't always suite my driving style.

99% of the time I totally ignore any setup advice given because there are so many different variables to take into account;

Controller type: Analog Stick
Digital Pad
DF Wheel
DFP Wheel
Other Controller
Other Wheel

Driving Style: Auto
Manual

Left-foot Brake
Straight line Breaking
Turn-in Breaking

Aggressive Attacking Line
Passive Drift
Aggressive Drift

etc etc....

Also remember to read the whole thread (briefly), because sometimes you will find that a perticular style for seting up a car is in preference for a certain race, eg. Qualifying, Sprint, Enduro - and also each individual circuit has it's own perticular setup.

There is so much individuality in each persons preferences and style. The only way to get the right setup for you is to improvise yourself. Alternativily you could use these forums to their total extent and explain where you're having problems, eg: "I am having trouble with my *CAR* around *CIRCUIT*, it is far too bumpy and I cannot control it. What can I change in my setup to fix the problem."

Also remember that sometimes a problem can be flaunted rather than fixed. If you work your style around a car that you feel you are having problems with setting up, sometimes the end result can be better than expected.

Take notes of what you read here, but don't think that it's always the RIGHT way.

Cheers, Taipan.

Very , very good indeed! 👍 Those who are insanely fast, are usually just very good at adapting themselves to any given situation, rather than trying to adapt the car. Wich is the way to go if you want to be fast(er)!

What I try to do, when I make a setup, is making it as general as possible, so that it will "do" on any track, with very little or no tweaking at all. I can´t do much about the cars though, as a setup for a (example) Viper is not transferrable to a (example) Honda NSX.

But take a look at the Tuning Competitions found in here, and you´ll see what XGT Taipan is really saying. If there are four competitors in a given week, you´ll get four different setups for the same track! On the plus side of this is, that you get an abundance of setups to try, and most likely one of them will suit you pretty well.

The main thing with a setup is, that it should not be read as fact, but rather an idea of what is doable, and to get an idea of how to set up a car in the first place. But it´s not dogmatic in any way.

 

[Leonidae]

When I tune a car, I usually drive it stock first to find clues of possible handling problems.

for example, R32's problem is understeery nature when pushed. That makes adjustment number one: increase grip in front. R32's understeer doesn't come from ATTESA, but from the heavy nose. I also leave VCD and LSD off, because they absolutely kill this cars handling.
Thus, I usually soften it a bit and adjust the angles and whatnot. Then I do similar thing to the rear suspension. After that, I do adjustment number two: The powermods, then adjustment number three: finetune the setup to match the power.

This way I get good general setup for any track, which I can easily tweak to suit the track if necessary. Unfortunately, most of the tracks are so smooth and have somewhat intermediate corners, so usually I don't need to touch the suspension, but brakes and transmission, or downforce.

 

[Sphinx]

Thanks guys, I'm pushed for time to actually take in everything that's been said so far and post a reply, so I'll make some time to reply later tonight.

Cheers.

 

[XGT Taipan]

Thanks guys, I'm pushed for time to actually take in everything that's been said so far and post a reply, so I'll make some time to reply later tonight.

Cheers.

Not a problem. Glad to have helped (if you were able to understand my inconsistant jibberish)

 

[Der Alta]

I want to further add a note to this.

A year or so ago, I was hosting "instant" races. A group of people would gather on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon in a chat room. At a given time I'd announce a track/car combination and we'd all vanish for one hour. Slave away at it, improving lines, tweaking set-up and ripping it up. We'd then PM in our time, and I'd post them.

The interesting thing was, that the fast guys/gals were still fast, and the slow group was still slow. When asked about set-up, we all usually picked a "standard" that we knew was close enough to good and hammered the car. If we noticed a glaring issue, we'd take a sledgehammer approach to it. ie, big changes to make effect noticeable. No little .5degree or one click adjustment. We're talking big adjustments.

Then weigh desired effect for 4-5 laps and tweak it. Then slam the car hard for the remaining time.

This approach worked best given the time limit. You'd gain more time with tweaking your lines, than with tweaking the car.

 

[Tornado]

My theory is that (forgive me if it has already been said) the reason the top drivers don't use the settings posted by the settings gurus is that they don't fit the driving style of the driver. For example, all of my settings I have posted (which reminds me that I have to get to posting my DeLorean set-up used in the FPV Typhoon thread) have been overly stiff to some people who have tried them because that is just the easiest way I drive.

 

[Sphinx]

Sorry for the delay in replying,

Well I didn’t think I would get a clear cut answer, but thanks to all who posted with their own views on the subject. It certainly is difficult to pin down.

I believe it has now been established that the ‘fast’ drivers don’t, or at least don’t make it known that they use this section of GTP for tuning tips and setups. I also believe after reading the replies here that the consensus is that this could be due to the multitude of variables that’s associated with setting up a GT-Mode car and differing driving styles. Therefore can I assume that it is fruitless for a fast driver or anyone else for that matter to use a setup that’s created by someone else if one is looking for near perfect lap that can be gained based their driving ability?

 

[Scaff]

Therefore can I assume that it is fruitless for a fast driver or anyone else for that matter to use a setup that’s created by someone else if one is looking for near perfect lap that can be gained based their driving ability?

A hard one to answer, if the driver and tuner had similar driving styles then it may prove to be a benefit, but if they had wildly differing driving style it could well be a huge problem.

At best a set-up may provide a 'jump-off' point for a driver to tweak to there own particular needs.

Its why set-up is best viewed as a series of adjustments, rather than an absolute. No one perfect setting exists for all drivers, but on the flip side it is possible to mess a set-up so badly that almost anyone who drives it has a problem.

Regards

Scaff

 

[VQuick]

A hard one to answer, if the driver and tuner had similar driving styles then it may prove to be a benefit, but if they had wildly differing driving style it could well be a huge problem.

This is quite true. I have a friend who can't tune to save his life, but he's a great driver. On the other hand, I'm a pretty slow/conservative driver, but a much better tuner than he is.

I know my friend's driving style, and I can tune cars for him so that he is pretty fast. I'll come up with a rough baseline, let him drive it for a few corners, and he'll tell me 'less understeer,' and I can fix it.

Of course, I don't show him all my tuning tricks. Keeping a few secrets is the only way that I can beat him.

 

[XGT Taipan]

My advice, from this point, to you would be to explain your driving style, and see if someone with variable style...

(someone who can adapt their style to a car setup, rather than have to change the setup to suit their style)
...can help you in setting up a car. But don't just ask for a setup - ask them how they come about certain situations and reasons why they change a certain setup item. This will help you understand the ways to setup a car.

The best place to look for drivers with Variable Style would be "Ducks Weekly Setup Competitions".

Good luck

 

[Casio]

Another aspect is that some people like myself don't enjoy the whole tuning part of GT4. I would much prefer just to go out and drive a car that's 'flawed' for my driving style, then waste even 30 minutes moving sliders back and forth.

Personally, if someone has a set-up that they believe is faster, I just prefer to use it for a few laps and see. If it is, I'll stick with it, regardless if it's not perfect for my 'style'.

I also believe that changing driving styles is essential to being competitive, especially in the world of OLR. XGT Taipan split people into sections such as Left-foot Brake, Straight line Breaking, Turn-in Breaking, Aggressive Attacking Line, etc. However, some Car/Track combinations will just be plain slow if, for example, you just do straight line braking, when the car gets much faster lap times by just tossing it into the corner under brakes.

 

[helly]

Therefore can I assume that it is fruitless for a fast driver or anyone else for that matter to use a setup that’s created by someone else if one is looking for near perfect lap that can be gained based their driving ability?

I originally came to this forum looking for setups as a starting point for re-learning how to set up cars in GT (Before getting GT4 not long ago, the last GT I played was GT2, and it was some years ago, so it wasn't quite like getting back on a bike). I, as I'm sure many others have, stumbled across Duck's setup thread and tried a few of his setups.

While it seems they're popular, and no offense of any sort to Duck, I absolutely hated every one of them that I tried. They made me slower, primarily because I was having a lot of trouble taking turns as quickly as I like to due to the slight turn-in and constant radius understeer that's present in all of his setups that I tried.

Obviously, if they work for him, they are not poor setups, and thus, proof that certain setups just don't work for certain driving styles as well as others do. I did some reading of Scaff's guides and a few others and started putting together my own setups that cater more to my driving style, and it's made me significantly faster than driving cars on stock settings or with other people's settings. It may be that I have a particularly unique driving style (as I don't consider myself an unusually good GT driver. Maybe a decent bit above average at best), but I find that I'm rather good at tuning for myself, if not others, and enjoy the results of them.

As a quasi-afterthought/ninja edit, I'd like to apologize, first, for singling Duck and his setups out like that. Again, no offense, and second, for the long post with very little relevance to the thread.

 

[ChromeBallz]

For instance, I could be clipping a 1'08 around midfield in a hopped up viper. If I spend 4 hours tweaking the settings, I could manage to trim it down to a 1'07. However, if I pay more attention to my lines and spend that 4 hours adjusting my lines, I'll get a better time.

First try with a '99 Viper gave a 1:07.829, on R3's

To stay on topic though, since GT4 is a computer game with certain rules, there *is* a mathematically fastest way around a certain track with a certain car. It's as simple as that. The problem is finding out how and what.

 

[eg6_dude]

For instance, I could be clipping a 1'08 around midfield in a hopped up viper. If I spend 4 hours tweaking the settings, I could manage to trim it down to a 1'07. However, if I pay more attention to my lines and spend that 4 hours adjusting my lines, I'll get a better time.

So what your saying is that you can shave a second by changing your settings, but why waste time on that because you can get the same second by perfecting your line. Hmmm.....

So wouldn' that mean that if you change your settings and perfect your line you could obtain two seconds, which is better then one, using your theory. 💡

 

[kekke2000]

So what your saying is that you can shave a second by changing your settings, but why waste time on that because you can get the same second by perfecting your line. Hmmm.....

So wouldn' that mean that if you change your settings and perfect your line you could obtain two seconds, which is better then one, using your theory. 💡

i think driving and tuning is too linked to be separated, if you drive lap after lap after lap you will see where on the track the communication between you and the car fails (mostly oversteer/understeer). A slight change at that point could make a second.

would that be driving or tuning?

 

[sucahyo]

To stay on topic though, since GT4 is a computer game with certain rules, there *is* a mathematically fastest way around a certain track with a certain car. It's as simple as that. The problem is finding out how and what.

Unfortunately, we can't force GT4 to show that.

I think GT4 engine calculate how the tire react to the road when using some setting, getting some driver input or receiving some road data, resulting what we call as handling feel. But it would be a lot harder to compute a mathematically fastest way around the track, the reason why most AI driver called stupid in many game, including GT4 ........

Tuning for fastest B-Spec time do not always get us fastest time in A-Spec mode.

About driving skill vs tuning skill, it always good if we had both. If you have time, there is nothing to loose to be better at both. If you don't, practice driving first.

 

[kekke2000]

Unfortunately, we can't force GT4 to show that.

I think GT4 engine calculate how the tire react to the road when using some setting, getting some driver input or receiving some road data, resulting what we call as handling feel. But it would be a lot harder to compute a mathematically fastest way around the track, the reason why most AI driver called stupid in many game, including GT4 ........

Tuning for fastest B-Spec time do not always get us fastest time in A-Spec mode.

About driving skill vs tuning skill, it always good if we had both. If you have time, there is nothing to loose to be better at both. If you don't, practice driving first.

The "Stupid" AI is the ones that keep their line even though there is an obstacle right in front of them.

And by the way... the fastest possible time is not only for programmed software, also irl. Let's take an example, we all agree that it's impossible to do a full lap of Laguna Seca in 2 seconds right? So there must be a limit, when you reach a time that is unbeatable. If you keep beat your time by a thousand of a second for long enough you will end up at 0 seconds... Impossible!

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I don´t think you can mathematically calculate a theoretical fastest lap. There are too many variables. First settle for a car, then tyres, and let´s say we use midfield, smooth that is. Then variables such as revs come into play, and here the driver comes into play. Throttle modulation, trailbraking, straightline braking, haw well does the driver follow the racing line? Does he drift? And that is important here! Some cornes can be faster if you can pull a driftcombo through them (chicanes, esses).

I remember in GT3, some people were able to pull 47 second laps in the FGT around Midfield. I don´t think that is possible in GT4 though, due to the change in grip levels.

 

[sucahyo]

I don´t think you can mathematically calculate a theoretical fastest lap. There are too many variables. First settle for a car, then tyres, and let´s say we use midfield, smooth that is. Then variables such as revs come into play, and here the driver comes into play. Throttle modulation, trailbraking, straightline braking, haw well does the driver follow the racing line? Does he drift? And that is important here! Some cornes can be faster if you can pull a driftcombo through them (chicanes, esses)..

Drift also the result of calculation, it just how much the GT4 programmer allow B-Spec driver to drift. B-Spec driver do pretty good job drifting if we "force" them, no big angle drift though. It would be more interesting if B-Spec driver or AI opponent have personality, one AI like to drift, the other like to trail brake, the other like to do smooth cornering, etc.

I enjoy testing B-Spec ability by making difficult car really hard to control .

 

[kekke2000]

Drift also the result of calculation, it just how much the GT4 programmer allow B-Spec driver to drift. B-Spec driver do pretty good job drifting if we "force" them, no big angle drift though. It would be more interesting if B-Spec driver or AI opponent have personality, one AI like to drift, the other like to trail brake, the other like to do smooth cornering, etc.

I enjoy testing B-Spec ability by making difficult car really hard to control .

ive seen this too, especially on the first "slalom" part of Nordschleife. Sometimes AI does a perfect drift series all the way to the jump

 

[sucahyo]

ive seen this too, especially on the first "slalom" part of Nordschleife. Sometimes AI does a perfect drift series all the way to the jump

👍, I want to see that .

 

[Pagan_2k]

Strange though, because most of my cars are set up for drifting and B-Spec Bob cant drive them to save his life.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

This is not big drifts, just enough to slightly let the rear loose, to get the front pointed at where you´re going.

I´ve seen the AI do the kind of drifting kekke2000 talks about. Must say it looks like they are doing it on pure luck though.

 

[Der Alta]

Drift also the result of calculation, it just how much the GT4 programmer allow B-Spec driver to drift. B-Spec driver do pretty good job drifting if we "force" them, no big angle drift though. It would be more interesting if B-Spec driver or AI opponent have personality, one AI like to drift, the other like to trail brake, the other like to do smooth cornering, etc.

I just want an AI that can drive.

Last night was the New York Enduro. I was rear ended by the Z06, teh Grand Sport, the Viper, and the Elise. Multiple times by the Elise. In addition, the Elise could not manage to run a clean lap. He spent more time against the wall than [insert bad police joke here].

I'm assuming when you say "Force" you mean "give them no choice but to"