GT2 Weekly Challenge: Special Events

[jeffgoddin]

Yeah, until you get full custom suspension, base springs are hugely important to a car's behavior. But there are a few things that suspension upgrades never allow you to compensate for. Base ride height, base downforce, coefficient of drag, and tire size. Believe it or not, but I've taken the time to both measure pixels and do tests to watch speeds where gears change to figure out tire sizes for a bunch of cars. Tires improve when you go to Sport/Slick, and improve again when you race modify your car. But they improve relative to base tire. Golf GTI 1.8 T for example goes from 195/60 R15 to 205/55 R16 to 215/50 R16. By doing top speed tests, it becomes apparent than some cars are much more slippery than others at high speed. Most are 0.31-0.33. The A4 is 0.29. R32 Skylines are 0.40, R33's are 0.35, and R34's are 0.37. So Skyines, in my experience, are too piggish to be competitive. Most cars have a base ride height of 150-155mm, but some are better, watch out for that, too, because it makes a difference. The Almera/Pulsar VZ-R N1 is at 120mm, and yes, it does corner better than you would expect.

But at the end of the day, the single most important thing about a car is its engine. If you're trying to compare by weight-to-power ratios at least. A peaky engine is not so good, an engine which hits its max hp at or above the redline with a sharp slope all the way up to it is the worst. Peaking at the redline but having a rounded gradual top is not so bad. Having a nice fat hump that begins to drop a little to the redline, that you can get your transmission around nicely, is the best.

But my suggestion for sports tires and suspension is only to keep it as the AI has it. If we want to go for full custom suspension now, fine. Hard or better slicks, fine.

Here's a thread that's a challenge I ran for a while a few years ago. There's like 17 rounds of fair competition to choose from.

 

[Wankel3]

The fact that tires improve by RMing is entirely new to me, thanks.

But at the end of the day, the single most important thing about a car is its engine. If you're trying to compare by weight-to-power ratios at least. A peaky engine is not so good, an engine which hits its max hp at or above the redline with a sharp slope all the way up to it is the worst. Peaking at the redline but having a rounded gradual top is not so bad. Having a nice fat hump that begins to drop a little to the redline, that you can get your transmission around nicely, is the best.

I would say that chassis rigidity and weight distribution are almost as important as good engine. But there is no accurate way to measure qualitatively these characteristics in GT2, but their big impact is certainly a thing. For example, fully tuned S2000 has less power than fully tuned S13 K's (the one with SR20DETT), has no turbo punch and slightly heavier, but perfect chassis still makes it competitive. FDs are also competitive against 600+ hp monsters because of that. Also, more rigid chassis requires less rigid suspension, so for mentioned Silvia my favorite sptrings rigidity is about 9-10, and for S2000 it is around 8.

On the engine, powerband itself is important, but also important is how it corresponds to character of the car. For instantce, big V8's are good on fairly heavy GT cars with great stability and smooth handling, but if you put the V8 into said S13, it won't be as good (for grip racing, that is) as the one with native engine. On the other hand, spiky power curves of S2000 and NSX allows them to dominate in twisty sections of the circuit, which wouldn't work without great chassis balance.

 

[jeffgoddin]

I must admit, I'm not too good with the qualitative stuff. Given custom gears and suspension and the rest, most of a car's competitiveness seems to come from the quality of its powerband. But yes, there are exceptions which I can't really explain with my maths. S2000 is one, another is the 300ZX, specifically the '94's, both S and Turbo S, at 260-270hp they're the best I've tested, and still among the best up to 360-380hp. Although you can tune them further, the steepness of the power curve becomes a problem above this, but at about 300hp, I can't see from engine or any other characteristic why they should be so good...

 

[Wankel3]

Oh, Z32s are also an issue I wanted to address. I also was wondering why they are so good at many levels of competition (including the IMSA race car), and from what I observed so far it seems that they have incredibly good traction while delivering power. I can say that '94 version can put 800+ hp to the road without braking a sweat. I have a hybrid '94 Z which is just a fully tuned (by regular means) car with NA upgrades on top of turbo upgrades and slight downforce increase - and with soft tires it goes through Autumn ring without a single wheelspin. At this stage comparatively long spooling time also helps for tracktion, but still. It seems that this is just a common thing for drivetrain parts of Z32s.

 

[Samgt]

Submitted my times for the FF Challenge... I didn't try too hard this time but hopefully I made something good. I didn't trust the Civics and Integras, they are light but have a terrible lack of power at low revs with their long gearbox... We'll see

 

[jeffgoddin]

Well, aside from the fair competition I've set up in my previous challenge, I can do the same for any given set of conditions. But then it's basically pick the car with the best engine.

Something I've never done before, but could try, is add one more component which adjusts for quality of the engine, basically giving the poor engines a boost to make it even more fair, so the drivers can just focus on picking the car they like the best and giving it a whirl.

I haven't done this yet with all cars, and indeed I'd have to do it over again once a particular tuning state is chosen, but I do a calculation based on several points on the power curve to determine how much of the peak power is actually available on average, considering also how many gears the transmission has. A great engine may have an effective hp factor (assuming driven with AT, so shift at redline) of 96%, including the '96 Corvettes, Altezza RS200, '97 Camaros, '90 Primera, and the Laguna V6. A poor engine would have 90% or less available on average, including the '98 Civic Type R's, TT 1.8 Quattro, 166 2.0 TS and 145 Cloverleaf, etc. The '69 Camaro Z/28 has only an 81% effective hp rating because it really should be driven Manual as so much power is lost by the time you rev up to the redline.

The notion would be to take whatever hp my model already suggests tuning to (which gives lighter cars extra hp) and divide it by the effective hp ratio. So if that Civic type R is supposed to get 200hp, instead it gets 200/.89 = 222hp to be more competitive, and the Corvette would get much less of a boost, if it were supposed to be tuned to 200hp, it would get instead 200/.965 = 207hp.

This should end up working like old BTCC handicapping, where the goal was close racing, so if you found yourself in the best car, you'd have weight added to hold you back so the others could catch up, except the way I'm doing it, if you find yourself in the car with the worst engine, you'd get a boost in hp to make you more competitive.

Okay, just spent a while fiddling, I'd recommend as fair competition choosing any or several of the cars below with the stated tuning, all with Stage 1 Weight Reduction. I'd also say let's just do SSR5. If everybody picks a few cars, and their results are all about the same, it will help confirm this model of mine about effective AT hp.

840ci Coupe - NA-1, race exhaust, chip, port & polish for 338 hp
XK8 Coupe - race exhaust, chip for 321 hp
Lexus SC400 - sport exhaust, chip, engine balance for 319 hp
Soarer 2.5GT-T VVT-i '96 - semi-race exhaust, chip, engine balance, port & polish for 305 hp
300ZX Ver.S Turbo '94/ Turbo '95 - race exhaust, chip for 298 hp
300ZX 2 seater TT '98 - race exhaust, engine balance for 301 hp
Supra Twinturbo R '91 - race exhaust, engine balance for 296 hp
CLK 320 Sport - turbo-1, race exhaust, chip for 312 hp
Mustang GT '99 - NA-2, race exhaust, engine balance for 301 hp
328ci Coupe E46 - NA-2, sports exhaust, chip for 289 hp
Supra SZ-R '97 - NA-1, race exhaust, chip, port & polish for 291 hp
320ci Coupe E46 '99 - NA-3, race exhaust, chip, port & polish for 298 hp
Skyline 25GT-Turbo R34 '98 - race exhaust for 289 hp
Skyline GTS25t Type M R33 '96 - race exhaust, race intercooler, chip for 279 hp
Altezza RS200 - NA-3, sports exhaust, chip for 276 hp
323ti Compact E36 '98 - NA-2, chip, engine balance for 270 hp
SLK 230 Kompressor - Turbo-1, sports exhaust, chip, port & polish for 272 hp
Skyline GTS-t Type M R32 '91 - Turbo-1, race exhaust, race intercooler for 272 hp
200SX K's Aero/Silvia Spec R Aero '98 - semi-race exhaust, engine balance for 263 hp
S2000 - semi-race exhaust, chip for 263 hp
RX-7 Infini III '90 - Turbo-1, semi-race exhaust, chip for 260 hp
Silvia K's 2000cc '91 - Turbo-1, race exhaust, engine balance for 254 hp
MX-5 C-Spec - Turbo-1, sports exhaust for 243 hp
MX-5 S-Special '93 - NA-3, chip, engine balance, port & polish for 230 hp

The cars that got the biggest bump in hp are the MX-5 C-Spec, CLK 320 Sport, MX-5 S-Special '93, Skyline GTS-t Type M R32 '91, 320ci Coupe E46 '99, and the Mustang GT '99. So I'm especially curious if I've over-tuned them and now they've got too much hp...

sound good? SSR5? Can do all the FR events if people want, but I'd have to spend another few hours doing this again... and I figure we'll get to the real high hp cars in the Touring Car Cup. And sounds like Wankel3 wants us to move to full custom suspension as well to even things out, and I'm up for that in this round, too.

 

[Wankel3]

Wow, great work! I think this idea can work beatifully. Good choice of track, too.
I have only minor complaint that such method of setting up a competition almost nulifies any need of tuning knowledge, although perhaps at this stage it should be better this way. Well, we'll see what gt3kid decides.

Edit: Nevermind, I've just missed the sentence about suspension. It's even better then, I'm up for it too.
Mustang lovers will certainly need a way to counter S2000 and Miatas .

Altezza RS200 has NA options? What? How on Earth did I miss that? Are you sure that you don't confuse with Lexus?
Also, little suggestion: I think one of the Miatas should be naturally aspirated, just for variety.

Shame that AE86 isn't included - I was going to use it . But it is not necessary, there are plenty of fun cars to choose from.

 

[jeffgoddin]

The tuning knowledge needed is suspension, transmission, brake balance, and LSD... And can't get Miatas up to power NA... And yes, RS200. Great little engine in that car!

 

[Wankel3]

Yeah, I initially thought that we're still going to settle with sports suspension, I'm happy to be wrong.
I'm certainly going to get an RS200 into the garage then.

I'm pretty sure that Miata S-spec can have up to 250 naturally aspirated horses. Is the power curve that bad?

 

[jeffgoddin]

Ah you are right, tuned the C-Spec first, which didn't get NA options, so went turbo route with '93 S-Special, too, without trying NA first as I did will all other cars. Edited above, as you'd expect with NA-3 and the redline shifted up to 7625 or so, the better engine needed less of a bump, so only 230hp now, but with Weight Reduction back.

 

[gt3kid89]

The times are up!

Wankel3:

Car: Mugen Integra Type R (NA1, semi-racing exhaust, turbo-2, chip) (can the integra get turbo and NA at the same time)

Tahiti


S1: 0.14.216
S2: 0.15.712
S3: 0.18.854
S4: 0.19.942

Total: 1.08.904

Midfield

S1: 0.19.755
S2: 0.15.267
S3: 0.22.629
S4: 0.16.662

Total: 1.14.313

Trial Mountain

S1: 0.17.268
S2: 0.25.504
S3: 0.23.011
S4: 0.22.180

Total: 1.27.963



AnthonyD1993:

Car: Honda Prelude VTEC '94.

Tahiti Road

Sector 1: 15.418
Sector 2: 33.293
Sector 3: 54.367
Lap time: 1:16.224

Midfield Raceway
Sector 1: 21.295
Sector 2: 38.181
Sector 3: 1:02.839
Lap Time: 1:21.066

Trial Mountain
Sector 1: 18.983
Sector 2: 47.601
Sector 3: 1:13.071
Lap Time: 1:37.218

Jeffgoddin:

Car: Peugeot 206 S16

Tahiti
14.780
16.106
19.221
20.000
1:10.107


134.26mph

Midfield
19.632
15.618
23.402
17.332
1:15.985

151.0mph

Trial Mountain
17.196
25.828
23.271
21.839
1:28.134

144mph

Samgt

Car: Fiat Coupé
Tahiti

Sector 1 0:15:153
Sector 2 0:16:778
Sector 3 0:19:947
Sector 4 0:20:928
Total 1:12:806
Max speed: 211.63 km/h
Parts: turbo-1, weight reduction-1, racing flywheel, triple disc clutch

Midfield

Sector 1 0:19:806
Sector 2 0:15:685
Sector 3 0:23:591
Sector 4 0:17:265
Total 1:16:347
Max speed: 242.62 km/h
Parts: turbo-3, weight reduction-2, chip

Trial Mountain

Sector 1 0:17:951
Sector 2 0:26:808
Sector 3 0:23:800
Sector 4 0:23:321
Total 1:31:880
Max speed: 232.8 km/h

Parts: muffler-2, sports brake


Winner in Tahiti: Wankel3 in his Integra Type R!
Winner in Midfield Raceway: Wankel3 again!
Winner in Trial Mountain: Again Wankel3!

The overall champion of the FF Challenge, with absolute domination is Wankel3 with the Integra Type R! Congratulations!

 

[jeffgoddin]

Haha, looks like I should've went with the Demio, had that around Tahiti in under 1:08.5 easily, at least I would've taken one event off Wankel3. Really surprised how close we were at Trial Mountain! Looks like you beat me through the middle twisty bits... Props where they're due, nice racing Wankel3!

What are you thinking for the next round gt3kid?

 

[gt3kid89]

Are you talking about the Demio A-Spec prize car? That's a badass FF ride!👍 And yes, his Integra was unbeatable

 

[jeffgoddin]

Yup, that's the one, I was going to use it just to try to win Tahiti, since it tops out at just 270hp, but then decided to go with the 206 S16 and try for a win at Trial Mountain fully tuned to 372hp. Since the Mugen Integra and the 206 weigh the same, I was hoping the extra hp would give me enough of a boost to beat his better suspension... Close but no cigar.

 

[DurWinning]

So what's next. FR Challenge, MR Challenge, 4WD challenge?

 

[gt3kid89]

FR Challenge, rear-wheel drive, drifting and slideout action! (hopefully more action than slideouts)

 

[DurWinning]

Question is do I either A: Stick with the 93 Supra or B: Find a different car.

 

[gt3kid89]

It's up to you! You can freely choose your favorite FR car!

 

[DurWinning]

I'll let you know tomorrow. I have tons of choices to consider.

 

[gt3kid89]

Now, the FR Challenge is ready to go!

FR cars are a lot of fun to drive, but don't understimate them, they're prone to sliding and spinning out!

The rounds are:

Clubman Stage Route 5 (295HP): A little funny street circuit, with a U-turn that can play bad on FR cars.

Special Stage Route 5 (443HP): See above, x5 times. The bigger and badder version of Clubman, with an amazing landscape, and double of corners to master!

Midfield Raceway (493HP)
Pretty easy and fast track, but look out for the banked U-turn and that tricky chicane/hairpin combo that can throw your car out of balance!

One week for sending times! Have fun everybody:tup:

 

[DurWinning]

I have had 3 really stupid ideas for cars I could use. The funny thing is I'm actually considering them.

 

[AnthonyD1993]

Hm, to actually try to win or do something dumb and just go with it. Decisions, Decisions.

 

[jeffgoddin]

What did you think of my suggestion above? Everybody pick as many or few cars off the list as they like and race them around SSR5, with sports tires, stage 1 weight reduction and listed power modifications as the only restrictions, and then everything else permitted, including full custom suspension. Wankel3 has said it sounds like a good idea to do this...

But if not, oh well.

Questions: do we pick only one car for all three events, or do you get to use a different car for each one? Are there any restrictions on tuning? Go crazy and buy everything, including super soft slicks and full custom suspension, just not race modification?

 

[gt3kid89]

You can use a different car for each event if you want. If you want to buy tires, go with sports for now, use the race compounds for later events with full-blown race cars/racemods. Same with suspension:tup:

 

[jeffgoddin]

I think I'm done with this competition... getting no enjoyment out of this round. Too much power on sports tires and sports suspension means uncontrollable laps, wheelspin most of the time at SSR5 and Midfield. FR Challenge should be on sports tires, but with half the power. That's why I created the list above.

 

[gt3kid89]

OK, so, full customization then, but don't go

 

[AnthonyD1993]

I actually might have to sit out a couple rounds depending on my schedule. I'm returning to college in a few days, and I might not be using my ps3 much. I'll try to enter a leg or two, but I'm not sure how many events I can enter for a while. I should be able to make this round though since I have time before I go back.

 

[jeffgoddin]

Well, it's not so much about having poor handling as it is about having too much power. And the idea behind these last two challenges.

By making FF and now FR competitions of hp limit, you force any serious competition to choose the lightest car with a good engine that can make enough power. So I took the Chimaera 4.5 to Clubman and got a 54.540, driving wasn't too bad since I had just 291 hp, some wheelspin but controllable. But in the real FR Clubman event, you don't need 54.54 to win. You don't even need 58 seconds to beat the AI. I then took the Chimaera 5.0 to SSR5 and Midfield, and it's just too much power. I had 441hp and 489hp in those events, and spent most of the time either sideways or off the throttle.

Sunday Cup and Clubman Cup were fun, because the limit was Credits. It was interesting to see the Infini III come into its own, and become the best, cheapest car in the game. After Clubman, I suggested a sequence of 12 or so events than would increase progressively in power, the idea to continue with the starter cars and tune them to the max.

But no, instead we went to FF cup.

So it seems like you want us to go through all the Special Events in order, and for every one to do the same thing, pick any car so long the the hp is under the limit for the event.

What I suggested above is a list of cars that should all be about as good as each other, with a little more than half the power limit of SSR5. And importantly, they vary in weight from a little over 2000lb to almost 4000lb. In other words, you don't have to pick the lightest car that can make the hp for the event in order to have any chance of winning. And they should all be controllable on Sports Tires and Suspension, which is appropriate for this early event.

So, unless you change your mind and want to do it differently, I'm not very interested in continuing.

 

[Wankel3]

Well, I thought that the competition would be a bit closer. Apparently, the idea of using the same car was not very good.

The times are up!
(can the integra get turbo and NA at the same time)

I apologize if I wasn't clear enough, but my Integra was naturally aspirated at Tahiti, and turbocharged at other stages.
Also I'm not sure if I'm correct, but it seems that Samgt didn't fully tune the Fiat. That's a shame, because I think he could get closer with the help of that little evil 5-cylinder

Yup, that's the one, I was going to use it just to try to win Tahiti, since it tops out at just 270hp, but then decided to go with the 206 S16 and try for a win at Trial Mountain fully tuned to 372hp. Since the Mugen Integra and the 206 weigh the same, I was hoping the extra hp would give me enough of a boost to beat his better suspension... Close but no cigar.

Yeah, in those twisty bits Integra was so good that I actually had multiple line choices, with or without braking, resulting in similar times.

gt3kid89, I highly recommend that we stick to regulations suggested by Jeff. The problem is otherwise competition will not really be fair. For example, I'm pretty sure that I can just take my good ol' RX-7 A-spec to the last stage and smoke every other car except for other RX-7's. (also probably some TVR dude could give me run for my money, but in order to do so he must drive with a steering wheel and have much more skill than I do), and I don't really want that. In other words, the situation still will be similar to FF cup even despite the larger amount of cars availible.

Also, Jeff's regulations give me an excuse to use the beatiful BMW 8-series with hope of performing actually well

Edit: I don't really understand why the controlability is a concern - as long as you have customizable LSD and suspension, you can make any car handle decently without relying on tires. Of course, some cars will have a lot of natural grip (like S2000), and some still will require proper usage of throttle (like TVRs), but it's manageable. If someone has trouble setting up the car, I can give some advice.

 

[Samgt]

So, are we still on the FR challenge? I've quite lost track with the competition in the last 2 weeks so I'm wondering if everybody's still at it. We should really bring back the money limit to give it some more interest, if there's no limitations then it's just tuning up to the max. Cars and parts need to be thought of