GT4 WRS Week 54 Official Results

[shockwaveracing]

exactly what i was going to say dan, the Vertigo actually turned in on me as i was braking in, that is why we touched, dunno why but the vertigo was always super cautios, but nearly every time through there he hit me... and whilst i dive on the brakes much later than he does, he does hit me around the B pillar area of my car, and because i have the inside line, my pass would certainly be legal in real life racing AND it didnt give me a forced pit entry so, therefore it wasn't that serious a contact and is therefore play on in my books...

 

[Tyre King]

Thanx Colby,

The touch with the Vertigo was a little worrying to me, but as there is no impact sound and he turns into me more than me into him.......I would say it's more a rub than anything, and him rubbing me not the other way round.
Also it's after the pass has been made cleanly and caused by me dipping a wheel in the sand and losing speed, at which point he decided to take a swipe at me. Bloody AI!

The 3 wheels of I hold my hands up to that one, unreservidly, but as Holl said 8 laps with a twitchy sod of a car and a track like Le Sarthe is hard to keep 100% squeeky clean.

Personally I would have you check my replays anytime mate. You're hard but fair, and pretty consistant in your assessments. 👍

Neil

 

[goixoye]

My replay is too big to post (105.2kb). I guess I'm too slow. I'll find flats email in the other thread and forward that soon.

Congrats to everyone. Very impressive times. Kinda disappointed at how slow I am relative to everyone else...absolute dead last of all times submitted (before the deadline). But I'm a rusty D3 so that, I suppose, is exactly where I should be.

IMO here are my thoughts:

1) Leave tire / pit strategy up to the individual except that AI should be required to be on the same tires.
2) Develop a handicap system (if possible). D1 = 0HP, 0WT; D2 = +1%HP, -1%WT; D3 = +2%HP, -2%HP. The week we did JGTC 300 cars I thought the system was fair in allowing different cars for the different divisions.
3) Specify Difficulty = 10 (or whatever) for everybody. Or possibly use this as a handicap system.
4) Allow only 2 attempts at the event. This is generous considering real racers only get 1 attempt.
5) "Practice" could be left to the individual. Allow anything except the actual race configuration. This could include at least 1 more or less lap. Or could include the exact race except difficulty must be at least 5 points different or different tires...something significant...maybe only allow 75% of the event length.
6) Relax rules a bit. No shortcutting. But off-track wouldn't disqualify the attempt (since you only get 2 attempts). Use the speed limiter penalty system (that way you would get a penalty for each infraction and not just 1 penalty for possibly several infractions during the course of a lap). Allow involuntary contact (AI hits you). For "incidental" (not "blatant") contact the 1st one is a "warning", #2 adds 5 seconds to your time, #3 requires a self imposed pit penalty (no car maintenance), #4 disqualifies the attempt. "Blatant" #1 - self imposed pit penalty, #2 - disqualification. These are in addition to whatever GT4 speed limiter penalty is imposed.

I enjoyed this event but think there's another level of "reality" that could/should be "simulated".

 

[fasj6418]

Okey-dokey...I've watched all the PAL replays posted so far and I can't use the green flag image for any of them. I'll list them in the order of "cleanliness":

holl01 - 25'23.149

Lap 2, Corner after T1: This is the only corner in the race with a question mark over it, here is a picture:



This corner has irked me for some time because it is very unclear where the road ends and the grass begins. I would be hesitant to classify this as a "dirty race".

ballstothewall - 25'50.679

Lap 1, Corner after T1: There is a minor touch of the Gillet Vertigo but it is fairly minor, if it were a real race I doubt it would even be reviewed.

Lap 8, Second last corner: A slight off that I have pictured below:



As you mentioned balls it is definitely 3 wheels off but it is very very close to being clean, however contrary to your justification, I would call it a help and not a hinderance, it provides a better line for the next corner but again I would be hesitant to classify this as a "dirty race".

zdenko - 26'08.925

Lap 1, Down the first straight: There is a decent touch of the Lister Storm, it is a decent hit and personally I would have just restarted but that's just me.

Lap 8, Corner before T5: Here you have a minor collision with a Nissan of some kind while trying to dive inside them, I would consider this a slightly reckless attempt at an overtake. As for how to classify the race....I dunno???

shockwaveracing - 25'41.689

Lap 1, two corners before T1: A major collision while trying to overtake the Gillet Vertigo. This one confuses me??? I wouldn't have even considered continuing the race because it was such a blatant mistake? holl01 makes the same overtake in his race nice and cleanly so I don't see the need to continue with your race? Having said that, the rest of the race is squeaky clean but that collision is fairly serious.

Anyway I know I've come across as a real bastard over the last few weeks, what with all my bad news when checking replays but I'm just stating what I observe 👍

i also don´t see any harm in those situations, mostly because the AI drives like yuji ide

also about the offs, it usually means a slower turn, therefore, just a regular race incident.

 

[Casio]

1) Leave tire / pit strategy up to the individual except that AI should be required to be on the same tires.

Agree.

2) Develop a handicap system (if possible). D1 = 0HP, 0WT; D2 = +1%HP, -1%WT; D3 = +2%HP, -2%HP. The week we did JGTC 300 cars I thought the system was fair in allowing different cars for the different divisions.

The problem is, that the times/ability isn't equal throughout the Divisions. Take D1 for an example, if you took Dan's time as the one to base the handicap, 80% of D1 wouldn't have a chance of winning. Take a Mid-Pack D1 time, The top of D1 would clean-up. +1HP/-1WT is Negligible, it would have to be more, on the McLaren it's what 6HP and about 11kg?

3) Specify Difficulty = 10 (or whatever) for everybody. Or possibly use this as a handicap system.

It's fairly difficult to enforce, as there are a number of AI car-line ups.

4) Allow only 2 attempts at the event. This is generous considering real racers only get 1 attempt.

Not going to happen. Ever. There is no way to enforce it. I've had many a lap ruined when my dog has jumped on my lap while I'm driving or knocked the controller cord, that shouldn't be the end of my week.

5) "Practice" could be left to the individual. Allow anything except the actual race configuration. This could include at least 1 more or less lap. Or could include the exact race except difficulty must be at least 5 points different or different tires...something significant...maybe only allow 75% of the event length.

Sorry. I'm not following.

6) Relax rules a bit. No shortcutting. But off-track wouldn't disqualify the attempt (since you only get 2 attempts). Use the speed limiter penalty system (that way you would get a penalty for each infraction and not just 1 penalty for possibly several infractions during the course of a lap). Allow involuntary contact (AI hits you). For "incidental" (not "blatant") contact the 1st one is a "warning", #2 adds 5 seconds to your time, #3 requires a self imposed pit penalty (no car maintenance), #4 disqualifies the attempt. "Blatant" #1 - self imposed pit penalty, #2 - disqualification. These are in addition to whatever GT4 speed limiter penalty is imposed.

The rules were relaxed this week. This is the first race in WRS history that you were allowed contact with the AI. You need more then 2 attempts if you're using AI. You need to learn what 'their system is', and work out where to pass them. Otherwise, go out cold turkey trying to lap at 100% The AI will just **** you up because you've got no idea what they're going to do next.

 

[Super T]

I've had many a lap ruined when my dog has jumped on my lap while I'm driving or knocked the controller cord.

I thought it was just my stupid (7 stone) dog that did this.

 

[Laurence5905]

exactly what i was going to say dan, the Vertigo actually turned in on me as i was braking in, that is why we touched, dunno why but the vertigo was always super cautios, but nearly every time through there he hit me... and whilst i dive on the brakes much later than he does, he does hit me around the B pillar area of my car, and because i have the inside line, my pass would certainly be legal in real life racing AND it didnt give me a forced pit entry so, therefore it wasn't that serious a contact and is therefore play on in my books...

I had a contact like that on Lap 1. Passing a car on the inside of the turn right before the long back-straight. I was inside already, and he turned in too sharply and hit me with his right-front corner, just forward of my left-rear wheel. I called it clean, because the computer didn't give me a forced-pit penalty, and I didn't gain any speed from the hit. I had already passed him when the collision occurred -- I wasn't "forcing" my way past him by pushing him out of the way... So I assumed that was clean...

I hope that's the case! Otherwise I submitted a dirty lap!

EDIT: Here's my replay. I figured out a way to upload it to my personal web-page, so y'all can download it from there. (FlatOut -- there's no need to post on your website the replay that I e-mailed you.)

Click here to download my replay file. (NTSC Format)

 

[MisterWeary]

I had a contact like that on Lap 1. Passing a car on the inside of the turn right before the long back-straight. I was inside already, and he turned in too sharply and hit me with his right-front corner, just forward of my left-rear wheel. I called it clean, because the computer didn't give me a forced-pit penalty, and I didn't gain any speed from the hit. I had already passed him when the collision occurred -- I wasn't "forcing" my way past him by pushing him out of the way... So I assumed that was clean...

The AI may have run into you but you can't tell me honestly you were expecting anything different? "Maybe this time the AI will respect my position...", that just doesn't happen. We all know the AI stick to a strict line around the track regardless of where you are so I don't understand why you and shockwave didn't overtake at a safer place??? Using the argument "the AI should have given way to me" is a flimsy excuse in my opinion. It doesn't take long to start the race again and get by them cleanly. Like Dan said, it is a long race in a squirrely car and so some concessions should be made, so certainly I would give holl01's and balls' laps the okay, but overtaking on lap 1 is something you can get right with persistence, that's what 90% of my (and probably most peoples) restarts were for. That's just my opinion though 👍

 

[Tyre King]

I agree, I lost count of the re-starts I had within the first 9 corners (Dunlop Curve#1,Chicane#2#3,Esses#4#5#6#7,Tertre Rouge#8,Mulsanne Curve#9)

I started out trying different AI strengths, then tyre compounds, and then multiple variations. Finally I ended up finding that +10 & Super-softs was the only combination that meant they were fast enough through the opening 8 corners, that they didn't get in the bloody way.

Then I had many more re-starts due to contact, screwed up lines, spins etc before I worked out the fastest way through the field.
Then I had multiple screw-ups.

But it was well worth it!

The best incident was running down the back straight between Mulsanne and Indianapolis on lap 7, got in the slipstream of the silver car(can't remember which) and psyching him into a big mistake on the sweeper, leading to him taking a header into the sand/wall at Indianapolis. Scary for me at the time(thought i was gonna get what the R/L driver's call 'target fixation' and follow him straight into the wall), but funny now.

Neil

 

[goixoye]

Not going to happen. Ever. There is no way to enforce it. I've had many a lap ruined when my dog has jumped on my lap while I'm driving or knocked the controller cord, that shouldn't be the end of my week.

There are all kinds of things that cannot be enforced but they're done anyway. I think the vast majority of planeteers are honest enough that if they can't abide by the rules they participate in events where they can. As for your dog keep him somewhere else for awhile. If something extraneous did cause "the end of your week" then that would "simulate" "real" racing. How many times has somebody ran over some debris and gotten a flat and been put out of an event or an engine goes sour or there's a problem with the ignition or overheating, etc...."that's just racing".

Sorry. I'm not following.

If you only get 2 attempts at a race you'll need to practice somehow

The rules were relaxed this week. This is the first race in WRS history that you were allowed contact with the AI. You need more then 2 attempts if you're using AI. You need to learn what 'their system is', and work out where to pass them. Otherwise, go out cold turkey trying to lap at 100% The AI will just **** you up because you've got no idea what they're going to do next.

"Real" drivers don't know other drivers' "systems". You just need to react as best you can to the AI. That's why contact shouldn't be completely prohibited. The unpedictability makes it exciting especially if you've got limited attempts. I suspect "practice" could adequately prepare you for most occurrences. If we're going to make it so that the AI are push-overs that are passed in the 1st half of the first lap during a 8 lap event why even have them on the track to start with? Where is the challenge in that. If events are multi-lappers with AI then IMO we should "simulate" "real" racing. Otherwise let's not "pretend" to have on-track competition and just stick to hot-lapping. IMO hot-lapping is like giving the victory to the pole winning qualifier...nobody really cares about real race qualifying...the fun is watching the competitor's mix it up on the track together. The most fun I had this week was with Diff 10 and the AI on the same tires. I caught the CLK but knew if I passed him he'd hit me in the rear because I wasn't that much better than he was. So I had to shadow him until just before the lap 4 pit and then squeeze by him as his tires went critical and beat him into the pits.

These were just sugggestions. I know I'm in a minority (possibly of 1). The best driver doesn't always win a real race. It's usually the guy who's in the right place at the right time. Just because someone can drive the quickest on a track by themself doesn't mean they're the best driver (how often does the pole qualifier actually win the race?). Whenever "real-time" OLR finally comes to GT we'll find out what we're all made of.

 

[Dr_Watson]

well, i guess i'm pleased with my result... wish i'd had more than an hour to play; this one was alot of fun and I know I could have done at least 10 seconds better.

did being absent for 20 weeks get me demoted?

NTSC US replay.

 

[Dr_Watson]

Otherwise let's not "pretend" to have on-track competition and just stick to hot-lapping. IMO hot-lapping is like giving the victory to the pole winning qualifier...nobody really cares about real race qualifying...the fun is watching the competitor's mix it up on the track together.

the problem with that idea is that you can't "pretend" that the GT4 AI is capable of simulating competition. You can't "mix-it-up" with the AI. This week it was impossible to make the AI quick enough to be even remotely on-pace.

The AI is only in these events because thats the only *good* way to do a multi-lap race.
And I'm not sure if you've ever heard of SCCA Solo-1 (Autocrossing) competition, but its one of the most popular ametuer racing series in the country. It's a hot-lap competition, and the few times i've done it, i never felt like i'd be having more fun if there was other cars on the track with me.
having multiple cars on track my be more interesting to spectators, but its not entirely neccessary for the drivers to compete.

 

[goixoye]

the problem with that idea is that you can't "pretend" that the GT4 AI is capable of simulating competition. You can't "mix-it-up" with the AI. This week it was impossible to make the AI quick enough to be even remotely on-pace.

As I'm sure everyone's aware, the AI competition is determined when the difficulty is selected. -HP and +WT could be used to adjust our car down to the AI's level.

The AI is only in these events because thats the only *good* way to do a multi-lap race.

So the intention of the administrator was to purposely create a race where the AI is passed early in the event and then not a factor? Then why not set difficulty to -10?

And I'm not sure if you've ever heard of SCCA Solo-1 (Autocrossing) competition, but its one of the most popular ametuer racing series in the country. It's a hot-lap competition, and the few times i've done it, i never felt like i'd be having more fun if there was other cars on the track with me. having multiple cars on track my be more interesting to spectators, but its not entirely neccessary for the drivers to compete.

I've not really heard of SCCA Solo-1 (Autocross) but I guess that's those guys who set up cones in a big parking lot? And drive street legal cars? It's probably done more out of necessity due to not having access to a track? But even in autocross there must be some limit on # of laps? It would scare me to death to put MY car in an event subjected to damage by other competitors (I don't have the financial means to repair damage...maybe if I had a "beater" I wouldn't mind)...but I'd avoid "incidental contact" at all costs...even to the point of finishing way dead last.

I'm obviously beating a dead horse here because it seems that no one wants to compete in an event that "simulates" real racing. I'm bored of hot-lap events because they're completely unrealistic. There's no tire wear, you can push the car to the absolute limit because if you cross that limit and screw up you "restart" without consequences. There's no flavor of reality at all...but I suppose it allows us to gage our abilities against each other. I don't compete here too much and I'm not missed when I don't. I'll stop being Don Quixote (sp?) and jousting at windmills. I guess TRD3 is the game I should stick to.

 

[goixoye]

Okey-dokey...I've watched all the PAL replays posted so far and I can't use the green flag image for any of them. I'll list them in the order of "cleanliness":

holl01 - 25'23.149

Lap 2, Corner after T1: This is the only corner in the race with a question mark over it, here is a picture:



This corner has irked me for some time because it is very unclear where the road ends and the grass begins. I would be hesitant to classify this as a "dirty race".

ballstothewall - 25'50.679

Lap 1, Corner after T1: There is a minor touch of the Gillet Vertigo but it is fairly minor, if it were a real race I doubt it would even be reviewed.

Lap 8, Second last corner: A slight off that I have pictured below:



As you mentioned balls it is definitely 3 wheels off but it is very very close to being clean, however contrary to your justification, I would call it a help and not a hinderance, it provides a better line for the next corner but again I would be hesitant to classify this as a "dirty race".

zdenko - 26'08.925

Lap 1, Down the first straight: There is a decent touch of the Lister Storm, it is a decent hit and personally I would have just restarted but that's just me.

Lap 8, Corner before T5: Here you have a minor collision with a Nissan of some kind while trying to dive inside them, I would consider this a slightly reckless attempt at an overtake. As for how to classify the race....I dunno???

shockwaveracing - 25'41.689

Lap 1, two corners before T1: A major collision while trying to overtake the Gillet Vertigo. This one confuses me??? I wouldn't have even considered continuing the race because it was such a blatant mistake? holl01 makes the same overtake in his race nice and cleanly so I don't see the need to continue with your race? Having said that, the rest of the race is squeaky clean but that collision is fairly serious.

Anyway I know I've come across as a real bastard over the last few weeks, what with all my bad news when checking replays but I'm just stating what I observe 👍

Apparently there is a reason why I'm so much slower than everybody else. I followed the rules. Where an incident clearly breaches the rules it must disqualify the attempt to maintain the integrity of the series. PERIOD. Just because a car is "squirrelly" doesn't mean the rules should be disregarded. It means the car should be driven more slowly and/or more carefully to stay within the rules.

Balls is 3 tires off = should be disqualified.

Holl01 is 2 tires completely off and 2 tires 99% off so he's 99.5% off. Shame on you holl01. You should have rerun the attempt. IMO the rule means at least 2 tires should be COMPLETELY on the track. If the edge of pavement were on the inside of the tires (99% on track) OK. I think this should be disqualified too.

I haven't seen the PAL replays (and don't think I can). But I "restarted" on several occasions because of less questionable contact than described here.

Despite my poor showing I worked hard to get a clean, competitive (by my standards) race. I e-mailed my replay to flat (too big to post) and will do so also to anyone who wants to see it. Contact is subjective but I think flat did an excellent job defining "allowable" contact. Off-track instances are nearly black and white...maybe "two tires on" should be furture clarified as "99% of two tires on" if that's the "intent" (it certainly seems to be the "spirit") of the rules.

Again, where an incident clearly breaches the rules it must disqualify the attempt to maintain the integrity of the series. PERIOD.

 

[Casio]

Balls is 3 tires off = should be disqualified.

In ~30 minutes, the only problem he had was that in one corner, he put 1 wheel about 2 inches too far to the left. You can not be serious. I'm sure everyone else has no problem with this. I certainally don't.

Holl01 is 2 tires completely off and 2 tires 99% off so he's 99.5% off. Shame on you holl01. You should have rerun the attempt. IMO the rule means at least 2 tires should be COMPLETELY on the track. If the edge of pavement were on the inside of the tires (99% on track) OK. I think this should be disqualified too.

That's how the rules have always been. As you as you have 0.0001mm of 2 wheels on the allowed area it's clean. There is a great example here (Week 48).

Despite my poor showing I worked hard to get a clean, competitive (by my standards) race. I e-mailed my replay to flat (too big to post) and will do so also to anyone who wants to see it. Contact is subjective but I think flat did an excellent job defining "allowable" contact. Off-track instances are nearly black and white...maybe "two tires on" should be furture clarified as "99% of two tires on" if that's the "intent" (it certainly seems to be the "spirit") of the rules.

No. It's not black and white. As Flat-O clearly stated.

Unlike week 45, I want the rules to be pretty cool.
Everything that is tarmac, rumble strips, concrete, cobblestones is part of the track, and whether it's beyond the rumble strips or not doesn't matter. Sand and grass remain off track.
Offs will be accepted if no time was gained in the process. Short-cutting will be immediately disqualified.

It's not like anyone went through the last chicane at 500mph. In my opinion, from what I have seen, no time was gained in either Dan's or Niels.

Again, where an incident clearly breaches the rules it must disqualify the attempt to maintain the integrity of the series. PERIOD.

If these clearly breached the rules then Colby would have not wrote the words "it is very unclear" and "I would be hesitant to classify this as a "dirty race". Personally, I don't think that any of these are clearly in breach of the rules.

 

[Dr_Watson]

As I'm sure everyone's aware, the AI competition is determined when the difficulty is selected. -HP and +WT could be used to adjust our car down to the AI's level.

yes, you can tune the straight-line speed so that the AI can turn in something of an OK lap-time. But then you have to contest with the sillyness of letting him by on straights, then passing him in the corners... that sort of planetary motion gets really anoying. Especially when the other satelite is completely oblivious of your existance.

So the intention of the administrator was to purposely create a race where the AI is passed early in the event and then not a factor? Then why not set difficulty to -10?

we can have a "gentleman's agreement" to use -10, but since we can't unwrap the replay data in GT4 its impossible to test. Better to leave it open and avoid the he said/she said which would be inevitable at some point.

I've not really heard of SCCA Solo-1 (Autocross) but I guess that's those guys who set up cones in a big parking lot? And drive street legal cars? It's probably done more out of necessity due to not having access to a track? But even in autocross there must be some limit on # of laps?

yes, its the cone carving. from my experience, laps are usually limited by time only. (or the occasional lightning storm making it dangerous to be in the timing truck)
It would be equated to all of us getting together on a saturday and taking turns with the same playstation, until the sun started to go down.

I'm obviously beating a dead horse here because it seems that no one wants to compete in an event that "simulates" real racing.

its not that nobody wants it, simply that the WRS is the "general racing" weekly flair. Specialized rules which are hard to enforce, generally spur specialized competitions. Which is why there are the various short/long race series outside the WRS.
I'm on the same page as you, and have been planning an event for the summer (when i have time to run it), going by your comments; i'm sure you'll probably be interested.
I won't get into it here, as i'll put up a formal interest check soon in the short race forum.

 

[Tyre King]

Balls is 3 tires off = should be disqualified.

Right, I am completely aware that I am defending myself here, and as such I am totally partisan. But I'll give it a go, and try to explain it in clear language.

On the occasion that I was 3 wheels off, as aproaching the final chicane. That you obviously have a problem with.

You have to realise that........

1) It was NOT intentional to gain time,
2) I was crossing the POINT of a right-angled prominance of grass,
3) The period I had 3 wheels off would be less than a quarter of a second TOTAL for the front-right wheel then the back-right wheel to cross the point of the grass area (less than the time taken to cross a drainage-strip on a R/L road),
4) The margins of that area are very blurry (there is a patch of mottled tarmac around the point of the grass area)

and finally........

5) If I hadn't been 2 inches too far to the left on that corner, and carried the same speed though the corner (as I had done on the other 7 laps), and completed the race perfectly.............
I still would have beaten you by fractions short of 20 seconds!

Track boundaries
Unlike week 45, I want the rules to be pretty cool.
Everything that is tarmac, rumble strips, concrete, cobblestones is part of the track, and whether it's beyond the rumble strips or not doesn't matter. Sand and grass remain off track.
Offs will be accepted if no time was gained in the process.

So really the problem isn't that I made a slight mistake, and, for a fraction of a second was 3 wheels off, is it?

Chill out!!!!

IT'S ONLY A GAME!

Neil

 

[goixoye]

In ~30 minutes, the only problem he had was that in one corner, he put 1 wheel about 2 inches too far to the left. You can not be serious. I'm sure everyone else has no problem with this. I certainally don't..

Don't make me the bad guy...I didn't make the rules. Why didn't Balls check his replay and rerun the event. If no clean race is possible then OK but if I can run a clean race so can everyone else. If Balls didn't realize he was 3 tires off then he should withdraw his entry...I would

That's how the rules have always been. As you as you have 0.0001mm of 2 wheels on the allowed area it's clean. There is a great example here (Week 48)..

I thought 2 tires on track would mean "completely" or at least the "majority" of the tires. But if the rules are interpreted that at least 2 tires must be "in contact" with the track (instead of "on" the track) then I guess those are the rules. Again if it was my race I would've rerun it so that there was no question. If I wasn't aware of it and saw the replay photo I would withdraw my entry. If these types of occurrences are allowable I guess it will change how I race these events. I really believe flat needs to further define 2 tires "on" the track.

No. It's not black and white. As Flat-O clearly stated..

I said "nearly" black and white.

It's not like anyone went through the last chicane at 500mph. In my opinion, from what I have seen, no time was gained in either Dan's or Niels..

My time would've been better had I straightened out the chicane (3 tires in he grass) and carried more momentum across the S/F line. So I disagree.

If these clearly breached the rules then Colby would have not wrote the words "it is very unclear" and "I would be hesitant to classify this as a "dirty race". Personally, I don't think that any of these are clearly in breach of the rules.

3 tires off is not "unclear" it is a breach. And personally 99.5% off seems a bit of a stretch too.

You're making me the bad guy because I want ALL the competition held to the same high standard. Otherwise competing at all is meaningless. If the rules are disregardable than they shouldn't be rules. I worked hard to get a clean race and these instances obviously irritate me because they diminish my time. I'm not ever going to be serious competition for D1 or D2 but my time would improve significantly if I operated at the extreme edge (and sometimes beyond) the rules.

If you watch my replay (lap 1) its obvious from about Indianapolis to the chicane the CLK is holding me up (watch me from the rear perspective so you can see my brake lights). Any sort of pass would've caused contact (I know this because I tried and failed many times). So rather than have "questionable" contact I chose to restart until there was no "question". Flats rules still state "if you're not 100% sure that you lap is clean, then consider it dirty". And thats how I chose to race.

I know this is an unpopular "opinion" but like I said I feel the integrity of the series is at stake. I know I'm a infrequent competitor but these infractions are another black eye to those of us who choose to follow the rules (and maybe drive a little slower and more cautious than we should) and submit "slow" times. If these particular rules aren't absolute then the other ones aren't either?

I know I'll get some additional flaming...just remember I'm not the one who breached the rules I'm just asking for enforcement (or possibly further clarification on where the line is drawn). In most cases the integrity of the driver should cause them to withdraw their entry before the administrator is forced to make a decision.

 

[goixoye]

Right, I am completely aware that I am defending myself here, and as such I am totally partisan. But I'll give it a go, and try to explain it in clear language.

On the occasion that I was 3 wheels off, as aproaching the final chicane. That you obviously have a problem with.

You have to realise that........

1) It was NOT intentional to gain time,
2) I was crossing the POINT of a right-angled prominance of grass,
3) The period I had 3 wheels off would be less than a quarter of a second TOTAL for the front-right wheel then the back-right wheel to cross the point of the grass area (less than the time taken to cross a drainage-strip on a R/L road),
4) The margins of that area are very blurry (there is a patch of mottled tarmac around the point of the grass area)

and finally........

5) If I hadn't been 2 inches too far to the left on that corner, and carried the same speed though the corner (as I had done on the other 7 laps), and completed the race perfectly.............
I still would have beaten you by fractions short of 20 seconds!

So really the problem isn't that I made a slight mistake and for a fraction of a second was 3 wheels off, is it?

Chill out!!!!

IT'S ONLY A GAME!

Neil

A long time ago I came to terms with being mediocre D3. So yes the issue is that you are 3 tires off. If you're clearly in breach of the rules how can you not withdraw? Even if you didn't suspect a problem then there is no denying it now. Do you not have any integrity? It's not a matter of whether or not you beat me (or could beat me if you cleaned up the race). I don't doubt it for a minute (or even 20s). It is a matter that I worked so hard for a clean race only to find out that maybe I really didn't have to.

"Offs will be accepted if no time was gained in the process." >> straightening out (short-cutting, 3 tires off, whatever) the chicane allows you to carry more speed across the S/F line so I disagree that "no time was gained in the process"

 

[Tyre King]

Ronny, please listen?

The rules were relaxed for ALL last week. They stated that:
"Offs will be accepted if no time was gained in the process."

The fact that I was 2 inches too far to the left and ran over the point of the grass area DOES qualify as an off. That, I admitted in my 1st post (where I submitted my replay)

However, as I actually went through the chicane slower than on previous laps, no time was gained by it!

Please stop being so pedantic about this! If I even for a second thought that I did it deliberately to gain time I would ask Cyril to remove my time, hold my hands up and accept the deserved shame.

All who know me from my 53 weeks of regular participation, will back me up on this point. And I trust all of the regular's to do the same in return.

If you choose to run by your own set of rules, and refuse to embrace a temporary relaxation of the regulations by Cyril, then that's your look-out, init?

The other mainstream/regular/respected drivers that have had their say, don't have a problem, a quarter of a second out of 25'50 is a blip! Schumacher(sp?) makes more mistakes than that in a race, and I'm not a professional driver being paid millions.

I'm not going to get into a flaming war with another racer who, like myself, is old enough to have a bit of sense and realise that even though their point of view is normally valid in the WRS, last week's race was different!

Let it drop, please?

Neil

 

[Sjaak]

Interesting week about ethics.

The rules are relaxed a bit and personally I think that was a mistake.
The ai touching rule was not necessary because what I saw at shockwaveracing's replay you come across them only once.
At the ARC from MrP in the short races there were two multi lap races with relaxed ai rules but yet the majority of the people who raced them preferred to submit a time without touches.
The relaxed rules felt like driving with out seat belts.
You know you can do it but it doesn't feel save.
Another interesting point is that we are all different and we all have, apparently, different views in anticipating on these relaxed rules.
Saying I was in the inside and that stupid ai ran into me is something what can be avoid.The ai drives always the same.
But when you have an attitude like submitting a time that is on the edge or beyond at all cost only for making you look good at the results list?.

In short, the WRS is not yet up for these kind of races.
Or it is no rules at all or just the standard OLR rules.

bye

 

[goixoye]

Dropped. At this point we'll apparently just agree to disagree.

 

[Tyre King]

Agreed!

Neil

 

[Laurence5905]

Again, where an incident clearly breaches the rules it must disqualify the attempt to maintain the integrity of the series. PERIOD.

Agreed -- except the rules were RELAXED this week. Off's were ALLOWED, as long as you didn't make contact with the wall, or short-cut a turn. (I'm thinking of the first chicane -- if you're going fast enough, you can jump right through it and wind up on the road, going perfectly straight, and you gained like 5 seconds because you never slowed down for the turns. THAT'S the intention behind the "no short-cutting" rule, not 3-tires-off-on-the-inside-of-a-turn-is-bad.)

And AI contact was ALLOWED, as long as you didn't gain speed in the process (a hard tap in the rear, for example), or use deliberate contact to force your way past an opponent.

The intention of the rule-relaxation this week was to create a "long" race that we could all do without having to restart after a minor mistake. But not allowing deliberate cheating (no short-cutting, not using a wall to help you make a turn, etc., etc...)

Of course, these are all just my opinions -- Flat-Out is the leader of the WRS, and he always has the final say in what's clean and what isn't. If the AI popping me in the left-rear corner disqualifies me, then so be it. The way I read the rules this week, that contact seemed just fine to me at the time. It was NOT intentional on my part, and I DID check my replay thoroughly for cleanliness, and thought it was clean based on my understanding of the rules for this week. If I misinterpreted the rules, then I apologize to everyone in the WRS for my unintentional submission of a dirty lap, and I will endeavor to do better in the future.

EDIT: I posted this after reading goixoye's first post, and I hadn't yet read the others. So the issue has been dropped, and please ignore this post.

 

[fasj6418]

the only thing i can say about this is...

we try to emulate a real race here. in real life, if a driver makes a mistake in a turn and end up in the grass, or go wide in some curb, he does not get a black flag for this.

only if he intencionally cuts a chicane or something like that.

if a driver is trying to overtake another driver, and they end up trading paint, touching wheels, well, that´s racing for god´s sake! it happens all the time. even with open wheel cars... its part of the race... once again, the driver would only get a black flag if he intencionally hit another driver to gain advantage...

there´s no point to enforce a rule that is not used in real life. just pointless because it would take some of the realism of the series... IMO

 

[Casio]

This is the problem with 'relaxed' rules. As goixoye pointed out before, usually the rules are black or white. If this was a regular WRS, with regular rules, then all of these instances would have been DQ'd, I completely agree.

It's when interpretation comes into things that it gets messy. Likes Neil's 3-wheels on the track, he argues that it didn't gain him any time, and is therefore in the rules. However, I can see goixoye's point too, so who is in the right?

What say if I had of cut the first chicane, with the exact (or slightly slower) same speed that I would usually take it? Technically, under my interpretation, that would be allowed. It would be alot easier for me too, as I had many a lap ruined braking into that turn.

The way I see it. There is no way that anyone can say, with 0% doubt, that he gained any time on that corner.

 

[Tyre King]

Ahh!

But then that would be shortcutting wouldn't it?

Not an off.

Neil

 

[Casio]

But then that would be shortcutting wouldn't it?

Again. It's interpretation on the word 'short-cut'

Does short-cut mean, 'Shorter amount of time' or 'Shorter amount of distence'?

The only example I can really think of give off the top of my head is Fuji 2005 (Irrelavant, I know). But you can probably use all that extra tarmac to get a better angle, exit speed, etc. It isn't really a short-cut per se, but it might quicken your time.

 

[Tyre King]

Think that would be 'shorter distance' buddy! At least as far as the dictionary is concerned.

Trust you to think 'out of the box'

Neil

 

[Sphinx]

One could argue that any driver who deliberately cuts a corner to the minimum in order to A, gain time, and B, to get a better angle for the next corner is deliberately risking an off to do so?

IMO, any driver who takes this deliberate action, cannot then say the off was accidental, because the drivers action when the off occurred was deliberate.