GT5 2.02 Tire Wear [HARD DATA ANALYSIS FOR SUPER GT]

[chuyler1]

All this talking in other threads doesn't get down to the real data. So last night I ran 3 separate 15 lap races by myself, each on a different tire and making pit stops when necessary, and saved the replays. People have driven with me know my driving style is consistent. I don't experiment with driving lines during the race, I pick a quick line and I stick to it. I also don't run the tires into the red.

Environment: Online Private Lobby
Vehicle: Nissan Calsonic IMPUL GT-R (Super GT) '08
Tune: Stock (direct from recommended car list)
Track: Nurburgring GP/F
Driver Aids: ABS=1, everything else off
Equipment: Driving Force GT with Wheel Stand Pro

(for those who can't read a chart, lower is better and the spikes are pit stops, duh)

(again, lower is better. The RS tires win by 10 seconds)

What does this mean?

1. RH tires can't quite make it the full 30 minutes. Even if they did, their times are too slow to compete with the RM and RS tires. They never once had a shot at the lead so even if tire wear could be improved they just don't have the grip to run fast enough times.

2. RM tires might be good for very specific length races. They will out last the RS tires by a few laps which could put you in the right window to be out front when the checkered flag drops...but the window is small.

3. RS tires are your safest bet for endurance races lasting 30 minutes or more. Despite making 2 pit stops for fresh rubber, the RS tires still crossed the finish line 10 seconds ahead of the RM tires. That gap would be even greater if the suspension was actually tuned for RS tires. eran0004 adds that running RS tires gives you the opportunity to take on 10L of fuel each stop while the tires are changed. That would put you 20L ahead of the driver on RH tires and 10L ahead of the driver on RM tires per 15 laps of a racing.


What this does not mean

This test can only be taken in context of a stock tune on Nurburgring GP/F. Other tracks and tunes will likely affect tire wear differently. A race at any super speedway where drafting is easier to do will definitely sway preference toward harder tires that last longer, maybe even Sports tires.

Other Factors

1. Drafting: At the start of the race, a driver with RM tires might be able to successfully draft a driver running RS tires. This could shave up to 5 seconds off that gap provided other cars are not battling for the same positions. Drivers on RH tires will have trouble keeping tire wear in check and attempting to draft so it is less likely on a track like GP/F that a driver with RH tires would get much benefit from drafting.

2. Blocking: It is possible that a driver with somewhat worn RM tires could hold up a driver on RS tires as he/she cycles through additional pit stops. Get caught behind someone for a few sectors and you can easily drop a few seconds. Get caught behind multiple cars on RM tires and it will be a real struggle to maintain fast lap times. The longer the race, the more chances to block.

3. Last lap heroics: If it came down to the final lap, even with worn RS tires, you can still run 4 seconds quicker than someone on RM tires. They can try to block, but with that amount a grip, an outside pass would still work. Braking distances for the hairpins and chicanes would also be key places to get a pass done. I would still place my bets on RS tires for this track.

Final thoughts:

I think we can all agree that tire wear is very rapid and lap times fall quickly for all tire types. However, there is some strategy to be found here and I think we'll start to see drivers mixing up tire selection in races more than before. For every race length, there will be a different optimum strategy. Knowing the right strategy will be just as important as putting down fast laps.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

Excellent writeup. The graphs say it all. Good to know.

 

[Mister Slow]

Good findings. 24hr NRing endurance using unmodded cars will require serious pit strategies, suspension tuning & improved driving techniques. Endurance races will now be much more exciting.

 

[Mac K]

So although the tire physics aren't entirely correct, they're not as bad as people are making it out to be? Nice writeup!

 

[k_riens]

What if boost is used ? Will RH hang with RS ? Will RH last longer ?

 

[dr_slump]

What if boost is used ? Will RH hang with RS ? Will RH last longer ?

I don't think that it would change the order.

 

[h2g2guy]

Excellent!

The relative number of laps between pit stops seems to make a lot of sense. I rather like this part of the update, but I hate the fact that I just did the 1000km Suzuka a week ago, and NOW we have tires that require good pit strategy

Thanks for taking the time to do a scientific measurement of this!

 

[rip4ofakind]

Excellent read:tup:

 

[OK8]

Good investigation but I'm still sad to hear softs still reign supreme. I hope PD revises this in the next patch making the tyres somewhat equal so there's real strategy to be thought out. Now it seems whatever the conditions, going for softs is still the best option.

 

[Sail IC]

Superb analysis and report .... and this might come in handy for me tonight.

I have a 49 laps race and Laguna, 611PP GT500 cars, free tire choice. If I push hard, the tires last 7 laps but if I nurse them a bit they last 8 laps. But 9 laps is a real streatch. Even when driving smoothly, there is only 10%/15% front/rear left on the tires on the 9th lap, or less. I calculated that multilpes of 8 laps stints is faster than 7 laps.

My plan for tonight is to try to do 8 laps stints and maybe tire wear will be less on lower fuel load. But if a get to lap 40, pit, and tirewear is equal through the race, I will put on a set of RM tires for tha last 9 lap stint.

Cheers

 

[chuyler1]

Good investigation but I'm still sad to hear softs still reign supreme. I hope PD revises this in the next patch making the tyres somewhat equal so there's real strategy to be thought out. Now it seems whatever the conditions, going for softs is still the best option.

I wouldn't say they reign supreme. It is entirely possible that a solid race done with RM tires could come out on top. 10 seconds isn't that much. Proper tuning and effective drafting might be able to close that gap. Accident avoidance is also important when full damage is on...and drivers battling for the lead with RS tires will be off pace just enough for someone hanging in the wind on RM tires to have the right track position at the end of a race. With numerous pit stops the RS driver has more work to do getting through traffic. It's not smooth sailing with an empty track. If you miss your line through Schumacher S it will cost you 1 second. Get stuck behind someone in the chicane and there goes another second.

I also plan to run some tests at other tracks to see how things pan out. I suspect High Speed Ring will be a different story. Nordschleife may be interesting too. Finally, dynamic weather will throw another wrench into the system once we start testing lap times on the two types of rain tires.

 

[chuyler1]

What if boost is used ? Will RH hang with RS ? Will RH last longer ?

They will last longer, but you will never be able to make it to the front unless you put RS tires on at some point. If it is a short race, you might get lucky with RM tires when drivers on RS tires run out of tread. If it is a long race, boost will bring drivers that pit right back to the front very quickly, so sticking with RS tires will be the way to go.

 

[BloodyPenguin]

Great info with graphs chuyler1. Well done.

..

 

[parabulla]

Good write up, thanks for taking the time to share your results with us.

 

[Lion-Face]

I was running 10 lap races on Wednesday night with Super GT, testing the tire wear and no ABS.

10 lap races, Racing Soft came out worst, Racing Medium would run 10 laps, depending on how you looked after them and how long the race was, one would pit lap 10 or lap 11. Racing Hard won a single race and was often only just behind the leader on racing mediums by lap 10 with about half tire wear.

Although it's not as scientific as yours, as it was during racing, the superGT's were tuned to 600pp (SuperGT's start around 590pp) and obviously different drivers with different skill set. But something about your test seems off, as Racing Hard tires were easily in front by the end of 10 laps compared with Racing Softs (although being closed in rapidly) I don't believe the Racing Hards are that slow on lap times. On lap 2 your more than 3.5 seconds slower than racing Mediums, which seems too far off pace.

It's certainly interesting seeing the data laid out and presented in this way. I'm going to have to test myself and compare in a similar manner to see how it goes. Nice thread!

 

[Hydro]

Very nice work chuyler.
Thanks for taking the time to test, and post your results 👍

It will be interesting to see if / what others test, and post similar results.

 

[chuyler1]

I was running 10 lap races on Wednesday night with Super GT, testing the tire wear and no ABS.

10 lap races, Racing Soft came out worst, Racing Medium would run 10 laps, depending on how you looked after them and how long the race was, one would pit lap 10 or lap 11. Racing Hard won a single race and was often only just behind the leader on racing mediums by lap 10 with about half tire wear.

Although it's not as scientific as yours, as it was during racing, the superGT's were tuned to 600pp (SuperGT's start around 590pp) and obviously different drivers with different skill set. But something about your test seems off, as Racing Hard tires were easily in front by the end of 10 laps compared with Racing Softs (although being closed in rapidly) I don't believe the Racing Hards are that slow on lap times. On lap 2 your more than 3.5 seconds slower than racing Mediums, which seems too far off pace.

It's certainly interesting seeing the data laid out and presented in this way. I'm going to have to test myself and compare in a similar manner to see how it goes. Nice thread!

Variables different in your tests...
* Vehicle (unless everyone was running same tune)
* Driver (huge difference here)
* ABS (I had it set to 1)
* Power (minor difference, but still there)
* Tuning (my car had some understeer that I would have dialed out to be more competitive)
* Early race drafting and jockying for position
* Track? (did you run GP/F?)

As far as offset between my RH and RM times, I don't claim to be the god of GT5 driving but I make use of what grip I have and I ran similar lines. I actually did a 10 minute warmup prior to starting this test, all on RH tires. For RM and RS tires I only ran one lap to figure out whether I could run Schumacher S flat out. I had to lift with all tires except RS on the first 3 laps.

You say that RH and RM were pretty close in your 10 lap sprints. If you look at my second chart you can see that after 9 laps, the RH is right next to the RM. When both cars cross the start/finish at the end of lap 9 there is only a 1 second gap. Unfortunately, the RM car on fresh tires can expand that gap to 8 seconds by the end of lap 10. Add in driver variance, drafting, blocking, and battling for position and it explains why after 10 laps those two options are pretty close. Extend your test races to 12+ laps and those RH tires won't be as competitive.

 

[fifomaniak]

I've just finished my small tests, and the results are a little bit different.

I've wanted to do 8 laps on both Racing Hard and Racing Soft tires with real grip reduction on Spa with Nissan Xanavi Nismo '06. Car wasn't tuned at all, I wasn't using any aids, even ABS was off. This was in A-spec GT-Life Practice Mode.

First, I took RH tires.
I could do all 8 laps pretty consistent, but I was getting into the car at the beginning and getting to know how late to brake etc.
My fastest lap was 2:24.6, but with going wide in the fast left hander at the end, so let's say 2:25 was the fastest.
My eighth lap was still under 2:26, car was still managable pretty much the same as in the beginning, I had to be catious with throttle in 2nd gear and watch not to lock the rear brakes, but it wasn't unpredictible.
At the end of eighth lap I still had about half of the tires on the tire wear indicator, but I felt like they could maybe even do 20 laps, if I would be more smooth with throttle and brake sometimes (rear tires were worn out more).

Then I took Racing Soft tires.
Immediately I felt more grip from the tires, first lap was 2:20.1, second lap was 2:18.1, so a 7 second difference. Quite big, I'd say.
But from the second lap I was starting to feel the loss of grip.
From 5th lap it started to be really quite noticeable, but I still was much faster than on RH. Lap 3 and 4 were 2:19.x, lap 5 was 2:20.x, lap 6 was 2:21.0 and lap 7 was 2:24.0.
I started final lap and... I spun out on the first corner, because I had no rear tires.

So the conclusion:

Racing Softs are still much faster than Racing Hards, but now they wear out a lot faster (two times faster?) instead of having the same or even longer life than RH, which was the fact prior to 2.02 patch. It's definitely more realistic now and adds to the tactics, because instead of using Racing Softs all the time, it maybe now better to use Racing Hards, especially with consistent and smooth driving.

PS.
I drive on G27, so I'm not using tires in different way, like turning instantly and then straight and over and over again, my driving style isn't the smoothest, but it's definitely not the most agressive, either.

To OP: I'm not being rude, but:

1. A consistent driver, as you call yourself, doesn't crash seriously three times on a 135 km distance. (~4.5 km * 15 laps * 2 (because i count RS and RM, on RS you crashed on lap 6 and 11 and on RM lap 8. And they had to be serious crashes, because you lost ~25 sec. to your surrounding lap times.)
2. I don't know what is your style of driving, and what are you driving on, but the fact that you used Racing Hards faster than the other two tires (that is how I read the chart, last 4 laps are much slower than the rest, with last lap being the slowest) is quite weird and very different from what I have experienced, so I see four possible reasons:
a) OP is using a controller, not a wheel, which may change things a bit
b) OP was driving in online mode (My Lounge or just any other server) and didn't mention it, maybe the changes to tire wear aren't yet in online physics (I haven't tried myself)
c) OP doesn't have 2.02 patch (rather unlikely)
d) OP is driving in a weird manner? (also unlikely)

Really, no offence to you, but something's not right.

 

[chuyler1]

Dude, you need to re-read the OP.

1) I didn't crash, those are pit stops.
2) Read the chart again, the Y-axis is time in seconds. Lower is better, ie faster
a) the OP says I'm using a Driving Force GT. that's a wheel with pedals
b) I don't think there is a difference as long as tire wear is turned on
c) Yes I do have the patch, that is the whole purpose of this post
d) Whatever dude. Check the lap times and run some laps yourself.

 

[fifomaniak]

1)Ok, that changes things a bit. But you wrote it in just one place and not really as an important thing (point 3. in 'What does that mean?') so I must have skipped it. That makes sense now. Now you edited it, it's clearer.
2) I meant you wore them out faster than the other two, but I didn't know that these were pit stops.
a) I'm not sure it was there before, you might have edited it now. But maybe I skipped that as well, never mind.
b) I don't think so as well, but we know physics are different online and offline, so who knows...
c) and d) My fault because I didn't read these were pit stops. However you haven't stated it clearly before, and second thing is, you mention 'stint'. A stint for me is a part of a race or practice where you are on the track whole time, without going into pits. But maybe I'm wrong here as well.

 

[chuyler1]

I dunno man, it seems pretty obvious that I mention 2.02 in the thread title and anyone that has driven 2.02 knows the RS and RM tires aren't lasting very long. I wouldn't have gone through the trouble to post this if I had a bunch of 40 second crashes in the data. 5-6 laps is about all that anyone is getting on a set of RS tires so when it goes to 15, it is clear we are talking about a full 30 minute race cycle with pit stops. I'm sorry you missed that...but everyone else figured it out.

Anyway, the RH data is a good measure of my consistency. I gain/lose a few 10ths here and there but the curve is gradual as the tires wear down. No one can string together 15 perfect laps with tire wear on, but these laps are 100% on the track with no corner cutting or cheating by driving outside the white line boundries. The last lap on RH tires was pretty embarrassing though. The fronts dropped to 0% half way through and I could barely hit 40 mph through the turns.

My equipment wasn't in the thread originally. I added it a few hours ago just in case someone wanted to run the test themselves.

This took 2+ hours to compile (about 90 minutes of racing alone) so its not just a random post about how standard cars have custom wheels. It is a definitive guide for those questioning the new tire model. There is strategy, but every track, vehicle, and race length will produce different results. If you want to contribute to this thread, take the car I used out and run some tests yourself and save the replays so you can record exact lap times like me.

 

[fifomaniak]

Ok, I was blind about the 2.02 probably and some other things. You know, it's quite a long read and I've missed few things, sorry about that.

However I didn't mean to be rude or anything but I few things were unclear to me and now they are clear, thank you.

If I look at the times now, considering that these were pit stops, then yes, you are quite consistent, that's not the case anymore.

And thanks to your post, I did my test (shorter, but anyway) and when I cleared all things out, the results are pretty much the same, the differences between hard and soft compounds in times and life length. I was able to drive 1 lap more on longer track (7km vs 4,5km), but that depends on driving style, maybe I'm nicer with the tires.

 

[chuyler1]

s'ok. I think we will see lots more stats in the coming weeks. Hopefully PD is watching and will give us some sort of tire wear slider to play with. For those doing 24hr enduros on the longer tracks (Nurb 24Hr, le Sarthe) it will be pretty annoying to pit so often. It really breaks your rhythm. It's hard to come off a lap with such little grip and throw down a solid lap with new tires. Considering you only get 2-3 clean laps on RS tires, you have to be extremely cautious yet aggressive to win a race using them. My 10 second gap could easily be closed when you add variables like traffic, drafting, and battling for position.

 

[Rumface]

In a situation where you are running laps twice as long, your pit-in strategy might change. Running on bald tyres for even half a lap might be a no-go. A 5 minute lap time might push your Race-Softs too hard. In that situation it might be better to start on softs and fall back onto medium.

 

[killerjimbag]

Well it all looks good but,try doing 20 laps at Daytona in a Nascar and RS will not last 15 laps.RH will last 20 laps.If you pit to change to another set of RS you have lost the race.Just a different bit of science.

 

[chuyler1]

In a situation where you are running laps twice as long, your pit-in strategy might change. Running on bald tyres for even half a lap might be a no-go. A 5 minute lap time might push your Race-Softs too hard. In that situation it might be better to start on softs and fall back onto medium.

It depends on the length of the race. For my 15 lap example, I might be able to push a set of RS tires for 6 laps instead of 5 (that's a big maybe). That leaves 9 laps to cover on a set of RM tires. By pushing both sets of tires a little harder, i could come out on top. However, I'd much rather be on the RS tires at the end of the race than the beginning.

 

[chuyler1]

Well it all looks good but,try doing 20 laps at Daytona in a Nascar and RS will not last 15 laps.RH will last 20 laps.If you pit to change to another set of RS you have lost the race.Just a different bit of science.

Start a new thread if you want to discuss NASCAR. This thread obviously states "SUPER GT" in the title. Super Speedways have a whole other set of variables. Drafting for one, will allow you to keep up with sports tires. You can't do that at GP/F.

 

[Blaze_409]

Hey Chuyler! this is a great analysis!

 

[Padracer99]

Soft tires wear much more when you have smoke coming out or when you see the front tire going red on a corner or your rear going red on start. In reality if you keep overheating your tires like that for the corners , soft compounds won't last for 2 laps.

The problem is people who would steer the car beyond what the tire and car would allow , soft compounds will wear much faster under a red tire smoke state. I could already see the problem this creates for people who like to steer so much through a corner and not to mention maximum set up.

Its not exaggerated but its simply realistic , its proven given the real Le Mans 24h data of the 908 and R18. You have to consider re evaluating your exaggerated driving style and exaggerated setup.

Excellent!

The relative number of laps between pit stops seems to make a lot of sense. I rather like this part of the update, but I hate the fact that I just did the 1000km Suzuka a week ago, and NOW we have tires that require good pit strategy

Thanks for taking the time to do a scientific measurement of this!

👍 its good to see that GT5 is heading towards the right direction , very realistic for real distance racing.

 

[greg666]

good find and post +1