GT5 - How should cars be classified?

[Disturbed07]

As I'm sure many of you know, in a recent forum discussion, there have been some strongly conflicting opinions about where certain cars are from, and what they should be considered as.
So I got to thinking, what is everybody's opinion on this? Do some people want to do away with the different countries, in GT5? Would anybody prefer one massive car shop?
And how do you classify cars that are built and designed by a company, that is owned by another? Or, how about cars built and designed by a company, but arent even sold in their country/continent?
Are companies like Acura American, North American, or Japanese? While they are built in North America, and sold there, they are strictly owned and operated by a Japanese company, and are also only remodeled versions of their Japanese counterparts.
Should they have called it North America instead of simply America, in GT4? If they had called it North America, I would certainly say they could be considered in that catagory, but they call it only, America. Should this be changed for GT5?
Would it be reasonable to consider it from (insert place here) if it is built, designed, and sold there, and the direct company is located there? Even if that company is owned by a company from elsewhere?
My personal thinking would be, example, Dodge, Jeep - owned by Chrysler, originally American, recently bought by German company Mercedes. While the primary owners are in Germany, it doesnt change the fact that Chrysler still operates as it's own company for the most part, as Dodge and Jeep have from Chrysler, so wouldnt that make them count as being from where those companies are located, and build, design, and mainly sell their cars? This also applies to companys such as GM and Opel, Vauxhaul, and Holdens?
Anybody with any opinion here, feel free to chime in, and let us all know what and why and where you think anything is from, or if you think it is impossible to define some cars place of origin.
The balls in your court now.

 

[Dave A]

My opinion is simple, classify the cars by the original origin of the badge. The original origin of Ford is American, Ford Europe cars still wear the Ford badge, it's the same badge as Ford America, so all cars with the Ford badge go into the Ford dealer in the America car manufacturers section. I'd put Acura, Infiniti and Lexus as all being American since the badges are American, regardless of the cars being copies of Japanese cars and the companies that own them being Japanese, the badges are American ect, This is how it's already done in GT4, this is how I'd keep it.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

How about the Aussie variants then? Are they American aswell?

Why not keep it simple and just have the manufacturing company instead of the countries currently used? GM, Ford, Toyota, DaimlerChrysler, BMW and so on and so forth.

Edit: I just thought about this, and in some cases that will be hard to use. How does older cars implement? And if a manufacturer owns say 30% in another company, what then? Bad idea maybe.

 

[95GTIVR6]

Acura, Infiniti and Lexus should be in America.
Ford should have variants in all the countires they sell cars in (America, UK, etc.)

Each country should have the companies that sell cars specific to that country. (i.e Ford Ka in Ford Europe, Ford Tarurs SHO in Ford America)

 

[Dave A]

How about the Aussie variants then? Are they American aswell?

Do Tickfords wear a Tickford badge anywhere on them? FPV's wear an FPV badge so they can be Australian since FPV is Australian. Ford Europe don't have any Ford Europe badge.

 

[Nattefrost]

I'm perfectly happy with the way it is in GT4, ie as Live4Speed stated it.
Things like Acura and Infiniti in America, TVR still British, and, should they make it in there, things like Lambo still Italian.

 

[Disturbed07]

I kinda like the idea of company such as Ford being listed in Europe, with only the cars specificly for Europe in there, and then Ford being in America, with all their cars from America, and any other company this may apply for,
And Austrailian cars I think should definetly be in Austrailia

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I kinda like the idea of company such as Ford being listed in Europe, with only the cars specificly for Europe in there, and then Ford being in America, with all their cars from America, and any other company this may apply for,
And Austrailian cars I think should definetly be in Austrailia

That would be good, as we would get a larger variety of cars, and many more cars! Imagine the modelrange!! Like the current Nissan Skyline! I would certainly not cry...

 

[Famine]

I kinda like the idea of company such as Ford being listed in Europe, with only the cars specificly for Europe in there, and then Ford being in America, with all their cars from America, and any other company this may apply for,
And Austrailian cars I think should definetly be in Austrailia

Agreed.

However - rewind - you run into a problem when you consider certain companies, like, yes, Lexus, Acura and Infiniti. Hell, you're always going to find exceptions when classifying things.

Point being that these three companies are clearly Japanese. They're owned by Japanese companies (Toyota, Honda, Nissan - or are technically subsidiary offshoots, rather than owned) and the cars are all based on Japanese cars. But Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are not sold in Japan.

How to classify them is very tricky indeed. Would you:

• Class them as Japanese, even though not sold in their market, because of the parent companies?
• Put them as a subsection within their parent companies - though this is fraught too, as many companies share ownership and technologies to the same extent (take Peugeot and Citroen, for example), and then what would you do with other companies which merely shared technology (Lotus and Vauxhall - Lotus build Vauxhall's VX220 in their own factory, based on their own Elise), or merely shared ownership (like Bentley, Lamborghini and the VAG)?
• Put them as companies within the markets they are sold - though again, they are not technically cars from that market as they are pretty much identical to cars sold under the banner of the parent company in Japan?

It's all rather confusing. All I know is that Lexus aren't sold in Japan, but the cars aren't American or European in origin (okay, the Lexus RX is built in Canada, but it's a Toyota Harrier)...

 

[Mt. Lynx]

What Disturbed said works anyway. Put Lexus as American and Toyota as japanese, so the RX can be American, and the Harrier Japanese, just like Opel Astra and Vauxhall Astra are German and British.

 

[Famine]

As far as I'm aware, only the Lexus RX is made in North America - and then for that market only. All other models, and the European market RX, are made in Japan.

The Lexus IS200/300 is about as American as sushi - and sells in Europe too. But doesn't sell in Japan, so can't really be Japanese...


Brrrrrrrr!

 

[AJ F.]

I think that the way GT has it set up now is perfect.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

OK, how about classifying cars from which market they are aimed at? That would make a lot of Japanese cars American and European instead. That could mean Toyota has a franchise in Europe, USA and Japan aswell as Australia, but the variety of cars offered at each franchise may differ somewhat. At the same time, a car like Yaris may be buyable at all franchises.
How does this sound?

 

[Emohawk]

I think that the way GT has it set up now is perfect.

Indeed. This isn't really something anyone needs to think about.
As an academic exercise, though, I will.

The only issue I can think of with live4speed's system is Daimler. Historically, it's a German badge, but the cars they sell are basically tuned Jaguars and they've been the cars of the British Crown since... well, since there were cars.

 

[Emohawk]

Damnit

 

[Disturbed07]

Agreed.

However - rewind - you run into a problem when you consider certain companies, like, yes, Lexus, Acura and Infiniti. Hell, you're always going to find exceptions when classifying things.

Point being that these three companies are clearly Japanese. They're owned by Japanese companies (Toyota, Honda, Nissan - or are technically subsidiary offshoots, rather than owned) and the cars are all based on Japanese cars. But Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are not sold in Japan.

How to classify them is very tricky indeed. Would you:

• Class them as Japanese, even though not sold in their market, because of the parent companies?
• Put them as a subsection within their parent companies - though this is fraught too, as many companies share ownership and technologies to the same extent (take Peugeot and Citroen, for example), and then what would you do with other companies which merely shared technology (Lotus and Vauxhall - Lotus build Vauxhall's VX220 in their own factory, based on their own Elise), or merely shared ownership (like Bentley, Lamborghini and the VAG)?
• Put them as companies within the markets they are sold - though again, they are not technically cars from that market as they are pretty much identical to cars sold under the banner of the parent company in Japan?

It's all rather confusing. All I know is that Lexus aren't sold in Japan, but the cars aren't American or European in origin (okay, the Lexus RX is built in Canada, but it's a Toyota Harrier)...

And these reasons are why I would consider these companys Japanese, and the cars Japanese, but, In a video game, they should list them for where you can buy them.
Unless, of course, they choose to list every company where it's company's parent resides, but that'd confuse many many stupid, (or young) people playing.
However, now that I think about that, since everybody seems to wants a little factual stuff in GT5 anyway, why not put them all in wherever their parents companys is located, and run details along the bottom, explaining all these nifty details?

 

[2004TSX]

Agreed.

However - rewind - you run into a problem when you consider certain companies, like, yes, Lexus, Acura and Infiniti. Hell, you're always going to find exceptions when classifying things.

Point being that these three companies are clearly Japanese. They're owned by Japanese companies (Toyota, Honda, Nissan - or are technically subsidiary offshoots, rather than owned) and the cars are all based on Japanese cars. But Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are not sold in Japan.

How to classify them is very tricky indeed. Would you:

• Class them as Japanese, even though not sold in their market, because of the parent companies?
• Put them as a subsection within their parent companies - though this is fraught too, as many companies share ownership and technologies to the same extent (take Peugeot and Citroen, for example), and then what would you do with other companies which merely shared technology (Lotus and Vauxhall - Lotus build Vauxhall's VX220 in their own factory, based on their own Elise), or merely shared ownership (like Bentley, Lamborghini and the VAG)?
• Put them as companies within the markets they are sold - though again, they are not technically cars from that market as they are pretty much identical to cars sold under the banner of the parent company in Japan?

It's all rather confusing. All I know is that Lexus aren't sold in Japan, but the cars aren't American or European in origin (okay, the Lexus RX is built in Canada, but it's a Toyota Harrier)...

Please note the italicized and bold and underlined in the above quote. Lexus is infact sold in Japan, or is going to be by the end of next year. They are trying to implement it into Japan. (I read about it on the World Toyota website months ago) I guess this would further complicate the whole sorting of cars in GT5. ALTHOUGH! In my opinion, I would use the same organizing technique used in GT4 in GT5.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Why not simply go with the continent that “makes” the car, and not so much the country per say. You’d have North America, Asia, Europe and Australia. Base the location of origin on where the production plants for the companies are located, or where the actual car model is sold. In the event that the same car is sold in several locations, have various prices or option packages available in those different locations to correspond with “the laws of the land” so to speak. I’m sure not every car is sold with the same options worldwide. Different colors, models, packages would all help to bring more of an authentic feel to each of the cars in the game. I’d also like to see the same for the after market parts shops they’ve added this go round. (Only pretty please, it’s not only Japanese cars that have after market parts available for them). Besides, the auto market is a global industry, so in reality, although a company may be American or Japanese, it’s models are sold all over the world. This should be reflected.

 

[General Gravy]

Maybe in Arcade mode, you can classify by whatever way you want (price range, era, layout, etc.) There should also be a GT3 style class, and add a pricing class like this:


E: Economy Cars (149 hp and less and/or 19,999 Cr. and less)
C: Classic Cars (eg. Fiat 500R, anything before 1979 is classic to me)
FC: Fast Classic Cars (eg. Corvette Stingray)
B: 150-350hp and/or 20,000 cr. to 39,999 cr.
A: 251-450hp and/or 40,000 cr. to 100,000 cr.
S: 450+ hp, and/or 100,001+ cr.
R: Basically, road going race cars, like the R390 GT1.
ER: Racing Cars based on Economy Cars, like the Lupo Cup.
CR: Classic Race Cars, like the S800 Race Car.
FCR: Fast Classic Cars, like the GT40.
BR: Same as B Class, but a Race Car.
AR: Same as A Class, but a Race Car.
SR: Same as S Class, but a Race Car.
RR: Full Fledged Race Cars.
Concept: Not really production cars.
GT Only: Cars that exist only in the GT World.

Then there could be a rally car class:

CRC: Classic Rally Car.
FRC: Fast Classic Rally Cars.
HC: Homogolation Cars.
WRC: WRC rally cars.
SRC: Special Rally Cars, such as Pikes Peak rally cars, or Concept rally cars.



This is the best I can think of, which probably means it can be improved on.

 

[Classic Anycar]

Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus should be listed under American because they were established in America to experiment with having their cars in America. The same with Datsun.

Another thing, "classics" should be defined as being built "no less than 20 years ago". Having a Cadillac Cien under "classics" is ridiculous. It's a concept car, not a classic. Plus, it was built four years ago. If you want classics, put the '59 El Dorado in.

Lastly, concept cars, tuner models and racecars should not be put under "new cars". Racecars and tuner cars are special models that can cost as much as $100,000. No regular production model would cost signifcantly over $50,000. Concept cars are not production models, just ideas that may or may not be produced in the future. Concepts, tuners, and racecars should go under a "special models" category, unless they are 20 or more years of age, then you can put them under "classics".

Another thing, we need classes. Different rankings would depend on performance. Classes and examples are below.

CLASS F: Daihatsu Midget II
CLASS D: BMW 120d
CLASS C: Acura 3.2 CL Type S
CLASS B: Pontiac GTO 5.7
CLASS A: Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG
CLASS S: Saleen S7
CLASS R: Chevrolet Corvette C6R

 

[SavageEvil]

I think it would be much better if, they would have auto makes exactly how they are in real life.

Japan-Toyota, Subaru, Nissan, etc...
USA- Toyota, Subaru, Nissan,etc...

Since they sell different models, both continents should have their own dealers, Toyota Motors and Toyota Motors Limited, LLC. Stop lumping all the car models in one area, that's annoying to cycle through cars like that. Keep it down to familiarity, people will recognize cars native to their continents in their continents automakers showrooms. I don't want to go to japan to Lancer, not the Evo. You get me. Since i think that POS is sold in the US only. Mazda has their own branches in the US as well, some cars available here aren't over there, keep it real PD. I don't care about the root company, it's all about what market the cars are available in. Familiarity helps people get through things quickly.

 

[Dave A]

Personally I'd be up for that, but you have to consider theres a lot of people who think it's too complicated n GT4 already, but I agree, that'd be a cool way of doing it.

 

[zujik]

Agreed. You guys are making it overly complex, which you are all free to!

To me, logically, offer in each area what you can actually buy there. For example I can by a Holden Monaro where as an American can by a Pontiac GTO so Australia has Holden -> Monaro and America has Pontiac -> GTO.

I think WAAAAAAAAY too much time and thought is being wasted on demo-graphical ordering of the cars.

It's can be as complex or as simple as you like:

1) Country, Brand, Model.
Australia -> Holden -> Monaro

2) Country Of Brand, Brand Name, Sub Brand Country, Sub Brand, Model.
USA -> GM -> Australia -> Holden -> Monaro

3) Country, Brand, Brand Based On, Model Based On, Model.
Australia -> Holden -> Opel -> Omega -> Commodore
Australia -> Holden -> Suzuki -> Ignis -> Cruze
USA -> Chevrolet -> Suzuki -> Ignis -> Cruze

See, can be as simple or complex as you like, and Holden isn't even a major player in the global stakes yet has a hard enough time if you want to look into how far you can group them.

O/T - Anyway, a hello to you all. My name is zujik and I'm from Australia (Sydney). I'm not Asian as the name suggests and I just joined today and look forward to some in-depth discussions about GT5 and the rest of the GT series.

 

[SavageEvil]

Welcome zujik to GTP. Feel free to indulge in many of the tournaments on here, kick back and grab a brewskie.

Nice way of listing, but I still think it's much easier if they just used the same map scheme, but keep the manufacturers that are stationed and developing from there in that part of the area.

Ex:
Country-manufacturer-model
USA-Toyota-Corolla

This is much easier to less knowledgeable individuals who don't know the cars origin. Especially for casuals who only know cars from their continent, they'll look there first and then look for the manufacturer they know. That right there would cut out the mess they had in GT4 with people looking through showrooms and seeing cars not even sold on the continent.

Point is, I don't want to go to the japanese section to buy the American Corolla, that just doesn't make any kind of sense and it's messy, since you have to look for the "(J)" within the display name of the car. I go to Japan I should only see JDM vehicles in their showrooms, I go to USA i should see only USDM vehicles in their showrooms, keep it simple and direct. Cut the confusion out from the get go.

 

[zujik]

Yep, i'm, with you. Sorry if I didn't clarify, the other examples where of how complex you could go, not what I actually think would work.

My first example is how I would go, the same as you said:

Country, Manufacturer, Model

That way I could buy a Monaro and you could buy a GTO and we both would know where to look without fiddling.

ME: Australia -> Holden -> Monaro
YOU: America -> Pontiac -> GTO

I would even suggest all models listed in the country they sell. While this may make duplicates of cars for each country, it makes more sense.

For example WRX and EVO have many models and people don't know why and don't like that part of it. But it's because some models are country specific.

The Japanese WRX is more powerful then the Australian one (detuned for our fuel) and the UK one is different again, hence why there are so many variants. While it could be more confusing, it would be better as a Brit could go to the English section and know the models listed are the same he sees on the road or at the dealer.

Maybe it's just easier to have a screen with all the manufacturers emblems and then list each car under that? Not as visual I know (and doesn't provoke the heart strings as seeing your own country there) but maybe that would be less confusing and just work?

 

[Famine]

I'd say that the problem comes in not when buying cars, but when racing them.

If you have the Impreza listed in the UK because you can buy it there, why can you not be allowed to race it in a British Car Championship? Only it's not British, it's Japanese. But so is the Honda Civic, and the European model is built in Swindon, in the UK, so has legitimate claims to be a British Car. Only it's Japanese but built here. So neither should be allowed. Unless it's the Prodrive Impreza Rally Car which is built, ground up, in the UK. But Subaru are Japanese...

*head explodes*

 

[Dave A]

I think it should just stay badge based, if it's a Subaru, it's Japanese, if it's a Tickford, it's Australian, if it's a Lotus, it's British ect regardless of where the actual car is built.

 

[SavageEvil]

I'd say that the problem comes in not when buying cars, but when racing them.

If you have the Impreza listed in the UK because you can buy it there, why can you not be allowed to race it in a British Car Championship? Only it's not British, it's Japanese. But so is the Honda Civic, and the European model is built in Swindon, in the UK, so has legitimate claims to be a British Car. Only it's Japanese but built here. So neither should be allowed. Unless it's the Prodrive Impreza Rally Car which is built, ground up, in the UK. But Subaru are Japanese...

*head explodes*

If the manufacturers are setup like i said, then you should be able to race autos that are built in the region in the region races, thereby making more interesting races. Then they can have Original euro races, as well as newer current euro market cars.

 

[Famine]

I think it should just stay badge based, if it's a Subaru, it's Japanese, if it's a Tickford, it's Australian, if it's a Lotus, it's British ect regardless of where the actual car is built.

And Ford?

 

[Dave A]

Ford US, I know they have Ford Europe too, but the country can't be Europe, so Ford = America, if anything, call it an exeption.