GT5 physics

[Quiet_Storm]

^^^Actually, I should've been more specific but that's what I did. I would hit their 1/4 panel when a corner comes up and they're turning and you would think their back end should fly out and spin them out, right? Well, it doesn't happen. It just sends them sliding, yes, but with that kind of a hit, the back should've kicked out on them instead of causing them to slide off the track. These were done at lower speeds at the beginning of some pretty sharp corners on Suzuka.

When I said "angle and speed", I meant that him going slower and me at a faster speed hitting him in the rear 1/4 panel. I haven't really tried a pit maneuver on an AI car at high speeds but I maybe have to test that out later tonight to see how that goes. I do agree with what you're saying, if you are in fact saying what I think you're saying.

 

[unv412]

I don't know about you, unv, but I've come to the conclusion that EPR physics is the most convincing on Tsukuba wet & Winterthurm where there is, quite logically, no "bite" to the grip. Also makes Dragon Range downhill pretty convincing...

I have played Tsukuba wet (millions of times) and loved the feel of the car but that winterium track kills me as too much patience is required whilst racing the AI. Its going to be my mission to master this and Dragon range.

Id also like to add FM2 collision physics are pretty much one of the best as well.

Scaff, can I draw you into a response to my first post in this thread????? You gave an all too brief/minute veiw of your take on the Demo physics in another thread, and frankly would like to hear your almighty moderator take on this matter!!!

 

[Biggles]

Id also like to add FM2 collision physics are pretty much one of the best as well.

Agreed: makes Forza 1 & 2 vastly superior in this area.

I have played Tsukuba wet (millions of times) and loved the feel of the car but that winterium track kills me as too much patience is required whilst racing the AI. Its going to be my mission to master this and Dragon range.

Dragon Range is definitely the best thing in EPR. Winterthurm is more of an oddity, but - although I've never raced a powerful FR car around a snow & slush covered small German town - feels very realistic. (Actually, now I come to think of it, I did drive my parents' Mercedes across Germany in the middle of a major snow storm a few years ago. However, I wouldn't describe what I did as "racing", & it was, in fact, quite scary, because, unlike GT4, damage was enabled! ).

 

[Kamus]

Kamus, how can you speak about GT5 physics when the game is a year away and the only thing you've seen is practically a work in process alpha version of a prologue to it? Don't turn this into another Enthusia fanboy thread when you haven't seen the final product. I bet Mona Lisa didn't look that good after painting the base colours either.

I think i've made it very clear i'm reffering to GT5.
And i personally belive it's a very good indicator of where PD's proprities are.
I would love for PD to change this, but i'm not just that optimistic.
I'm not here to tell people they should be playing EPR instead... i think it's very obvious evryone, including me will be playing GT5 allmost excuslivly when it comes out.

 

[Tenacious D]

I disagree with Tenacious:

It's (physics) obviously not that easy to do. EPR, GT & Forza are obviously trying to do that, but end up interpreting real world physics in quite different ways. I am sincerely hoping that PD does take a cue from the positive characteristics of both Forza & EPR & incorporate them into GT5

Well I disagree with you. Any game is merely an interpretation of reality. Why on earth would you want physics to be interpreted twice? Especially when Polyphony lies within miles of test tracks and road courses, and have access to hundreds of real life cars, and manufacturer's data? Besides, if you prefer another game, play that game.

Id also like to add FM2 collision physics are pretty much one of the best as well.

While the Forza collision physics are pretty good, Toca blows it away. Live For Speed is also excellent, but in the version I played, the car bodies would simply squish like clay.

 

[unv412]

Well I disagree with you. Any game is merely an interpretation of reality. Why on earth would you want physics to be interpreted twice? Especially when Polyphony lies within miles of test tracks and road courses, and have access to hundreds of real life cars, and manufacturer's data? Besides, if you prefer another game, play that game.

your missing the point.I originally asked what would you take from other racing games as a pointer to making GT5's physics the most realistic?? Its easy to say just make everything real, but many (if not all) in the console racer bussiness have failed.I understand its difficult to do realistic physics and that some games dumb the physics down intentionally to appeal to the casual gamer, I just want to know everyones thoughts on what mix (if any) of physics from other games experianced would make the perfect physics.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well okay. If I'm stuck with picking and choosing elements from other games, I'd add in a combination of physics from Toca 3, Richard Burns Rally and Live For Speed, damage from Toca and Dirt, and audio from Toca 3, Forza 2, Live For Speed and GTR2. Graphics, tracks and car selection from nobody else.

Well, maybe Toca and Forza 2, especially Toca's tracks. More than 70!

 

[Biggles]

Well okay. If I'm stuck with picking and choosing elements from other games, I'd add in a combination of physics from Toca 3, Richard Burns Rally and Live For Speed, damage from Toca and Dirt, and audio from Toca 3, Forza 2, Live For Speed and GTR2. Graphics, tracks and car selection from nobody else.

Well, maybe Toca and Forza 2, especially Toca's tracks. More than 70!

Now you're getting into the spirit of it!

Wot, no EPR!

 

[unv412]

audio from Toca 3, Forza 2, Live For Speed and GTR2. Graphics, tracks and car selection from nobody else.

Well, maybe Toca and Forza 2, especially Toca's tracks. More than 70!

dam straight!!!👍 you sorta cant complain with the car selection in GT4 even without the big 3, I still found myself pre occupied with all the tasty cross section of auto history.
RBR with out a doubt is awsum in its gravel/snow/tarmac rally physics feel. Couldnt ever get the DFP to feel right with 900 deg rotation tho, but still totally edge of the seat feel for rally physics....I also dont mind EPRs gravel physics for standard road cars as it was really progresive, much like my RL experiences muckin around in rental utes/cars/4WD's wheneva we go huntin in the bush (aussie outback not too far from city)

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm sorry, but with Enthusia's tire sounds silent until I'm on my way off the track, trying to explore their physics is just a frustration test. I get plenty of physics to explore in GT and Forza, flawed and unacceptable to some as they might be.

And the upgrade system? Pick 1, 2, 3... just no.

 

[Biggles]

I'm sorry, but with Enthusia's tire sounds silent until I'm on my way off the track, trying to explore their physics is just a frustration test. I get plenty of physics to explore in GT and Forza, flawed and unacceptable to some as they might be.

I agree with terrible tire sounds in EPR - in fact most of the sound in EPR is pretty poor. However, the physics are still worth exploring & in certain tracks, particularly Dragon Range, the driving experience is superior to anything in GT4 of Forza IMO.

 

[Tenacious D]

Yeah, but see, to take a car around a curve aggressively, your tires have to communicate with you. I'm not a big fan of playing a guessing game, how much grip I have, or not. And I don't have all eternity on this world to spend learning all the idiosyncrasies of one game. I'll leave the Enthusia lurv to those who truly lurv it.

 

[Biggles]

Yeah, but see, to take a car around a curve aggressively, your tires have to communicate with you. I'm not a big fan of playing a guessing game, how much grip I have, or not. And I don't have all eternity on this world to spend learning all the idiosyncrasies of one game. I'll leave the Enthusia lurv to those who truly lurv it.

Well, I grant you that there is a lot of tire squealing in GT4, which communicates what your car is doing. Unfortunately, what it communicates is that your car is constantly understeering.

Ironically, one of the things that GT4 does much better than EPR is sudden loss of grip which equals no tire squealing.

 

[Biggles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJn2BxI-AM

Love this film as a demonstration of real world physics - admittedly on a fairly unimpressive collection of cars - great mix of oversteer, understeer & sudden loss of grip!

You can see that without roll-over it's impossible to create anything approaching real-world physics...

 

[unv412]

I put those roll overs down to the road being freshly surfaced (heaps grippier) and maybe incorrect tyre pressures (or tyres perhaps???) as my friend had a beetle that he used to drive like it was stolen and never ever looked as if it would turn turtle!

 

[Biggles]

I put those roll overs down to the road being freshly surfaced (heaps grippier)

You mean without the graffitti it's too grippy?

 

[unv412]

You mean without the graffitti it's too grippy?

lol Wonder how many SUV's and the like would fail the moose test????? or for that matter clipping one of the notoriuosly high ripple strips/curbs on the ring??? Would make for some interestin racing for sure!👍

I think there was a game that let the cars get to 45 + deg then plonk down softly.

 

[ma61supra]

i agree. I think the GT game designers should always try to make the game as real as possible with the technology available at the time and without doing things like putting abs on cars that never had it. I also think the tuning should be more in depth. Like having to map the engine when you do a stage 4 turbo or the like. They could have a base map for ppl who dont know what there doing but if you want to play with it you could set the timing, ignition, and fuel that would be so much fun to be able to pull timing, add timing, swap injectors, pick cam profiles, set compression, have a boost controller and so on and so forth.

 

[Biggles]

I also think the tuning should be more in depth. Like having to map the engine when you do a stage 4 turbo or the like. They could have a base map for ppl who dont know what there doing but if you want to play with it you could set the timing, ignition, and fuel that would be so much fun to be able to pull timing, add timing, swap injectors, pick cam profiles, set compression, have a boost controller and so on and so forth.

That's all very well, but I think they've got to start with more accurate physics - until they have that, everything else is meaningless. The video shows how dramatic weight-transfer is, even at quite low speeds. If the tires can't handle it, the result is sudden loss of grip & - if the car can't handle it - roll-over.

EPR does the weight transfer much better than any other console game, however, it does not model the sudden loss of grip. My point is, it's hard to do it without roll-over, because that is the realistic consequence of pushing the weight-transfer too hard. Perhaps, in simulation mode, if the manufacturers are unwilling for a game to show roll-over, the game should indicate there's been a roll-over & the screen should go blank/back to restart, indicating that the race is over.

Not the best solution, I know, but one that would at least allow the physics to be more accurate. It would make the driving more realistic & more "honest", forcing drivers to face the consequences of pushing the car too hard.

 

[Tenacious D]

Eh, once again I disagree. Toca 3 has pretty good physics. Wrecks look amazingly realistic, but at the same time it's not easy to flip cars. I've tried when the game drove me into the red zone out of frustration and it's harder than it should be. It seems that "the hand of the game" keeping cars down just has to be coded properly. With Toca as an example, it can be done. And the Prologue demo is already a big step in the direction of realism.

 

[Eneko Zelaieta]

For my opinion Toca 3 is horrorous "simulator" and Dirt isnt simulator... isnt arcade... is... no coments...

Talking About Enthusia Profesional Racing, I stay some years ago, when Konami release it, driving on it, and the car feeeling was awesome and weight - masa transfer was the best, very accurate, more than LFS or any other simulator for my opinion. I think also they need improve their tyre physics or surface (dont know) for their Enthusia Profesional Racing 2, becouse it feels like it has got very less grip, poor grip for my opinion.

Talking about GT4 physics, boooh... I hate those physics, y cant say nothing good about it:

- Weight - masa transfer isnt real.
- You CANT slide a corner with throtle ad powersteer like a REAL CAR, it is imposible!
For example( it is rallye, but is the same!) :

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=uGaLU8ikt1U

The surface and Tyre physics dosnt feels unrealistic.. bad physics in general, no real car feal, GT3 has better physics

Im waiting my GT5 Prologue, so y think (im seeing in videos is more realistic than GT4) has good and real physics in profesionnal mode 👍

Regards, Eneko Zelaieta

 

[phil_2001]

Can you believe it I've never tried Enthusia because I'd never think it would be a GT4 rival and I don't spare my free time with any average game, although now that I think of LFS which is a GT4 rival alright(someplaces LFS is better than what GT4 delivers), it makes me rethink my mind and give Enthusia a try if you say it's good, if I can find it, that is.

But GT4 is the best game for me thus far. I have driven cars in my life and I have driven carts, the cart feels very very precise and very brutal, you're becoming One with it and GT4 with its supersport cars feels a lot like the cart driving- precise and sharp and I'm sure that's realistic for a supersport car with hard suspension etc. And that's why I dislike ISI based games as they don't feel brutal and sharp when you drive, I'm bored of them.

 

[raymagnu]

One thing I would like to see from Forza 1&2 is the way some cars get that torque grip or whatever when you start accelerating from 0, where car starts pulling sideways. (RWD) I always missed this in GT, even before I tried Forza.

I also feel that they have lost fokus on the Skyline GTR's uniq AWD system on GT4 compared to 2 and 3. (havent played the first as much) It felt more realistic before. I these kind of details are important to GT, and one they were the best at representing.

 

[Eneko Zelaieta]

Can any GT5 Prologue owner write here how it feel GT5 Prologue physics engine in Profesionnal physics, please? A description with the best thing it has and the worst

If you can put your own puntuation of .../10 ;-)

Im asking this only becouse is the most important "factor" in a SIMULATION for my opinion :-)

Thanks all.

 

[sxy rider 39]

^ I played the eiger time trial demo at my local Sony store, and I'll say that they've improved the power-induced sliding a lot, however, there's still not much oversteer in the game, which is another aspect of real life handling that's been sorely lacking in GT games since GT3.

 

[Gabkicks]

i'd like to see a video showing off the physics. or exposing them

 

[Eneko Zelaieta]

Yeah, yeah, yeah! I like see too

 

[Laorin]

One day the sun will shine and there will be no war. United Nations will be the main goverment body on the Earth, while US Trade Deficit will be non-existant. Michael Jackson will be granted Nobel for peace.

On that very day, PD will give the option to turn-off the ABS in GT games. And on that day GT's physics will be just step away from perfection.

It's too bad there's no real post moderation in terms of a slashdot-like system. I'd give you plus a billion to funny and insightful all at once.

 

[resistance100]

Forza has that oversteer "bite", but does not implement weight transfer realistically, which gives the driving a somewhat unrealistic "digital" feel. Plus, of course, no good wheel...

Completey agree, theres 2 let downs for me when playing forza.

1) The game really does feel like im playing a video game, not driving a car. GT5 [lap version] gave me alot more life-like feel to it.

2) The wheel, the only worthwhile wheel is the 360 official one, however i hate lap based wheels for one, plus it doesn't have the same responsivness as the DFP or G25, while MS refused the G25 to be compatable with the 360 i will never know, the only reason i can think of is so people are forced to buy the official one

 

[phil_2001]

As far as I heard Mocrosoft isn't allowed use Force Feedback technology on their console due to issues with Immersion Corporation involved. That's why we don't have a true FF wheel for the X360. There's only Vibration Feedback wheel I think.

And, please, take note that no steering wheel without a separate power supply is a true FF wheel. I mean it's very easy to spot a true FF wheel and not get lied about. I've seen a MS official wheel which is wireless BTW and it sais Force Feedback. That's a lie more so because a wireless steering wheel cannot provide such serious effetcs like Force Feedback in the first place, you need cables and a dedicated power supply you find in all FF wheels on PC and PS2.

And if you don't know what a true FF wheel does look on youtube for demonstrations. A FF wheel tends to fight you like a real car steering wheel does and still has Rumble effects, so then the simulation is very good. A Vibration Feedback wheel doesn't fight you so the car isn't really there, it merely provides rumble effects seen on X360 and Dual Shock 2, 3 gamepads. A racing sim game will never be a good sim without FF wheel support. It's kind of sad for the Xbox360, for now, that is. Maybe Microsoft sorts the deal out with Immersion which is the daddy here. Immersion is the holder of touch sense technologies such as Force Feedback, Rumble Feedback and so on because I think there is a lot more to it.