GT5 Wheels in motion...realistic?

[Quiet_Storm]

I have no idea why I'm still up watching videos on Youtube but this is what I've noticed. The wheels in motion for GT:HD just didn't look right to me in the replays compared to the opening sequence in GT:HD which has the blur effects on the wheels that makes them look very true to life. If you watch the opening sequence and then watch one of your replays, you'll know what I'm talking about.

After seeing the first 2 trailers for GT5P, I was impressed at how they improved on how the wheels looked in motion. Much more realistic, in my opinion. Well, I came across an actual replay video of GT5P and I must say I'm a little disappointed since it was nothing like the 2 trailers of GT5P as far as how the wheels looked in motion. Here is what I'm talking about.


This is what a wheel in motion looks like in real life. Also, please note the tire screeching, tire marks, tire smoke and orgasmic engine/exhaust sound in the Carrera GT plus the Supercharger whine in the SLR. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for these things in the final GT5! BTW...a Porsche Carrera GT makes me giddy like a little school boy.



Here is what I'm talking about with the GT5P trailer. Notice the wheels in motion looks realistic and more true to life.



Here is what I notice in the actual replay which doesn't look very realistic to me. There needs to be more of a blur effect on the spokes in order for it to look natural, in my opinion. If you keep your eyes on the wheels, sometimes it looks like they're not spinning at all.




I just hope that the final product will look exactly like the trailer. I know it's just a little thing but I think it would really bug me and maybe some of you when we're sitting there trying to enjoy the replays and every car looks like they're rolling on spinners.

Thoughts?

 

[Flerbizky]

GT:HD is nothing but an upgraded GT4 engine - We have NO idea of knowing how well, or true to life, GT5 will look..

 

[Quiet_Storm]

Just out of curiosity, did you even watch any of the videos before replying?

 

[Flerbizky]

Just out of curiosity, did you even watch any of the videos before replying?

No... But it's fact.. We don't know...

Why do people always cry BEFORE they have the actual product at hand..

 

[Quiet_Storm]

No... But it's fact.. We don't know...

Why do people always cry BEFORE they have the actual product at hand..

No? So you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about regarding this thread? Maybe you should try reading what a person wrote before jumping to conclusion and saying that they're crying about things or whatever, ace! If you don't have the intelligence to do so then please, refrain from hitting the reply button. Let me help you out, read the last paragraph in my first post, especially the part where I said "I hope the final product will look exactly like the trailer". I hope you can at least comprehend that part and realize that I know this isn't the final product and am just making a thread on what I've noticed so far.

Have a good day, squirt.

 

[Flerbizky]

You finished your first posts with "Thoughts" - So I gave you mine. If you don't want my opinion - Don't ask for it..

And I DID read your post before replying...

 

[Quiet_Storm]

You're right, I should've said "Intelligent thoughts". I always give people a benefit of a doubt and end up disappointed. I should really stop doing that.

 

[Scaff]

And you two stop this right now, currently all I see in here is two members having a 'pop' at each other.

It will not escalate beyond this (or I will put a stop to it).

Now turn this into an actual discussion or the thread gets locked.

BTW - I also don't want to hear any 'well he started it with comment X' nonsense either, both of you have valid points (the current GT5 replays are a little dodgy in the wheel department, but it is also an unfinished version being shown) that warrant discussion not childish bickering.


Behave

Scaff

 

[Lain]

And you two stop this right now, currently all I see in here is two members having a 'pop' at each other.

It will not escalate beyond this (or I will put a stop to it).

Now turn this into an actual discussion or the thread gets locked.

BTW - I also don't want to hear any 'well he started it with comment X' nonsense either, both of you have valid points (the current GT5 replays are a little dodgy in the wheel department, but it is also an unfinished version being shown) that warrant discussion not childish bickering.


Behave

Scaff

Sc0wn3d. XD

Anyway, yeah. In the gameplay, the wheel spinning doesn't look as good as in the trailer. But it's a work in progress, and i'm not overly concerned about it to begin with.

Also, keep in mind that GT4 graphically blew GT3 out of the water, and i'm sure that the difference between GT5 and GT6 will be just as impressive if not more so. While GT5 looks great, GT6 will most likely address a lot of the small issues that GT5 may have.

 

[Supercar_Killer]

Further to what people have been saying, at the Liepzig Games Show, there was a display of gt5p and Sony's spokesman said that they are still finishing off minor details, like the skins for the driver's hands and the shifting animations and what not, so I presume the wheel details and blur effects fall under that category. I agree with Walter, GT6 will probably blpw GT5 out of the water, no matter how good it looks, as no game producers have come close to fully using the PS3's processing capabilities.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

That's what I'm hoping for in the final version. This is just what I'm noticing with the current build of the game and figured I'd make a thread hoping that a person from PD will read it and say to himself, "Self, that genius, Quiet_Storm, on GTP has a very good point and we should definitely fix that for the final version".

Do you guys think GT6 will be out for the PS3 or will it be out for the PS4? I know that Sony's consoles have very long life expectancy but I'm kind of doubtful with the PS3 the way things are currently going, to be honest. Also, it's nice to think that GT6 will blow GT5 out of the water and that they'll fix the little things but I personally think that should be done with GT5. It is their 5th version of the game for crying out loud. It's time to get things right...now.

 

[Jedi2016]

The problem appears to be how they're implimenting the blur. From what I saw in GTHD, and from what I've seen in GT5P so far, the blur is a camera effect, and only a camera effect. Meaning that the blur is based on the movement of the camera and not the movement of the objects it's seeing. That's why the background and environment are blurred, but the cars aren't. If you look closely, you'll see it's not just the wheels.. it's the whole car that doesn't blur.

In previous GT games, they solved the wheel thing by switching textures on the fly, from the normal spoked wheel to a blurred one. Same trick they use in PGR3, which also can't blur cars. They should probably impliment something similar here, except maybe some sort of shader to simulate blur rather than using a flat texture.

They should definitely do something with it, though. Even if the cars remain unblurred (which they shouldn't), the wheels need fixin'. It's just too obvious to the viewer when they're not blurring as they should.

Another problem is that PD adds complete motion blur to all of their videos, even those derived from raw gameplay footage. This gives a false sense of what the final game will deliver, which is highly disappointing. I hate to use the phrase "misleading" about my favorite franchise, but in this case it's accurate.

 

[rbush83]

I agree there is a problem but I see it a different way.
To me it seems the designers are showing the wheels as they would appear through a video camera, like on television. What happens is, say your theoretical camera's shutter slaps 60 times a second. If a cars wheel were to make exactly 60 rotations, or some multiple or divisor thereof whose math escapes me right now, the wheel appears motionless, even though it is spinning. As a wheel spins faster or slower with a car, this effect sweeps in and out, and sometimes can make the wheel to spin backwards. We've all seen this effect.
The real problem is they have chosen to represent wheels of cars always as if being viewed on television! When we're there in a race, especially in car or bumper cam, we want the wheels to appear as they would if we were there in person. So really it's a problem of them deciding to show the wheels as if through a camera, rather than in person.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

I've seen a lot of car commercials and racing events on television and the wheels always look like they're spinning to me. The only time it has the effect like they do in GT5P is if they show a replay of an overtake or or spin out in slow motion. Then you'll see the spokes kind of sweep back and forth like you were talking about. Now, of course, one can say that televisions and movies are not running at 60fps and the slow motion may be running at a higher framerate too so, yeah.

Then again, that wouldn't explain the replays looking that way since it's only running in 30fps. See what I mean?

 

[RedBaron]

Motion blur is camera effect. I really appreciate the way it's going to be, also race in 60 fps no blur (like we see it in real life) and replay 30fps w/ blur (like TV race replay). Bravo, PD.

 

[rbush83]

I've seen a lot of car commercials and racing events on television and the wheels always look like they're spinning to me. The only time it has the effect like they do in GT5P is if they show a replay of an overtake or or spin out in slow motion. Then you'll see the spokes kind of sweep back and forth like you were talking about. Now, of course, one can say that televisions and movies are not running at 60fps and the slow motion may be running at a higher framerate too so, yeah.

Then again, that wouldn't explain the replays looking that way since it's only running in 30fps. See what I mean?

I see what you mean but I disagree. The fps of the final output is inconsequential. It is about the interplay of the shutter speed of the video camera (or in this case the hypothetical in-game camera) being used, and the rotation speed of the wheel.
Imagine a spinning wheel that is colored like a BMW logo. Quartered into alternating blue and white. If you spin it at 60 rpm in a dim room, and hit it with a strobe light at 60Hz, your eyes will perceive the wheel to be standing still. If you gradually speed up or slow the wheel, it will appear to roll forwards or backwards. It will also appear to stand still at 30rpm and 120rpm.
Here, watch the 10 minute clip of the Ferrari Enzo on Top gear http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8KuetZuOAc and pay attention to the wheels. Sometimes they blur, sometimes they appear to stand still, and other times they roll backwards. It's just an unintended effect of the video camera. I notice that in the end when the stig is racing it around the track, blur dominates. I think the cameras they use for that may actually be different then the ones they use during the artsy portions.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

^^^Interesting. I just watched that video you linked and you're right. Now I'm all confused.

I, however, still want them to do some kind of blur effect on the wheels just so they're more true to what my eyes sees whenever I am at a road racing event, though.

 

[solinent]

And you two stop this right now, currently all I see in here is two members having a 'pop' at each other.

It will not escalate beyond this (or I will put a stop to it).

Now turn this into an actual discussion or the thread gets locked.

BTW - I also don't want to hear any 'well he started it with comment X' nonsense either, both of you have valid points (the current GT5 replays are a little dodgy in the wheel department, but it is also an unfinished version being shown) that warrant discussion not childish bickering.


Behave

Scaff

Come on, you gotta allow something. They both had valid points, but there was only one troll (the person who didn't even watch the videos mentioned in the thread).

My personal comments are that I don't care either way. They both are realistic. I'd imagine that it looks different at different speeds and with different cameras (some cameras blur it only because they have slower time in and out, but some don't).

For example, wheels look like that (spinning backwards sort of) when you watch cars in real life going down the road. I'd imagine this is how it looks when you're going slower.

I believe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect is the phenomenon they are accurately reproducing. The person I mentioned above does have a point -- you shouldn't criticize something in development. However, it is great feedback, but since I doubt Polyphony actually reads these forums (they are Japanese) they won't see that.

I see what you mean but I disagree. The fps of the final output is inconsequential. It is about the interplay of the shutter speed of the video camera (or in this case the hypothetical in-game camera) being used, and the rotation speed of the wheel.
Imagine a spinning wheel that is colored like a BMW logo. Quartered into alternating blue and white. If you spin it at 60 rpm in a dim room, and hit it with a strobe light at 60Hz, your eyes will perceive the wheel to be standing still. If you gradually speed up or slow the wheel, it will appear to roll forwards or backwards. It will also appear to stand still at 30rpm and 120rpm.
Here, watch the 10 minute clip of the Ferrari Enzo on Top gear http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8KuetZuOAc and pay attention to the wheels. Sometimes they blur, sometimes they appear to stand still, and other times they roll backwards. It's just an unintended effect of the video camera. I notice that in the end when the stig is racing it around the track, blur dominates. I think the cameras they use for that may actually be different then the ones they use during the artsy portions.

This is what I mean. Different wheel speeds and cameras will produce different effects. Also, you may be wrong -- at 30 rpm you may notice movement. It depends on whether the wheel is perfectly symetrical, or has five prongs or something similar (if it has five, it will appear still at any multiple of 60/5, or 12).

 

[detergent]

Do panning shots have an effect on the look of the wheels rotation as opposed to the ones when you (the camera) are paralel to the car or travelling at the same speed?

 

[solinent]

Do panning shots have an effect on the look of the wheels rotation as opposed to the ones when you (the camera) are paralel to the car or travelling at the same speed?

They shouldn't. The type of camera used to do the panning shots normally, compared to the type used for other shots might be different (ie frame-rate, motion-blur, interlacing etc).