GT5P is ''The real driving simulator for wet conditions''.

[tony1311]

I was thinking today after trying to pull a good lap with the M3 @fuji 550:

Why do i still play (everyday) a game that is unrealistic?

Cars in GT5P seem to get out of control more easily than in real life.(And once they are out of control, it is not that difficult to ''save'' them.)

I won't get into details and stories,i will say just this.

Drive any arcade Time Trial(S tires) and ask yourself :

''Doesn't it feel like i'm driving on a wet track?''

 

[nevertell]

Dunno, it seems it changes day by day. When I drove the m3 @fuji online with 550 pp, I felt it was more grippier with s3 tires than when I drove it the day before at the same track with r3 tires.

 

[Dave A]

If you actually do tests and I mean proper tests, you will probably find that you are driving too hard and too fast. If you put the correct tyre's on to match the real cars tyre's then the the maximum cornering speeds are generally very close to the real cars. The S tyre's are grippier and I don't have many issues controlling the cars with S tyres. Without trying to sound condescending, maybe it's your driving that's the problem. If you were complainnig about the N tyres, then yes, I could understand. They arn't too loose, they are very realistic, but it can be hard to judge when you are close to the limit and that can make it hard and it took me a fair bit of practice to get used to them. But the S tyre's were relatively easy to drive with right form the go.

 

[nevertell]

Well, yes it depends on the driver. For me, it even depends on the mood

 

[Exorcet]

GT5P's model of tire limit grip is flawed, but good. It is nothing like driving in the wet. I regularly drive cars like the Z06, F430, F40, Viper, 599, GT, DB9, SL55, etc on N3 tires as they have g levels cloest to reality.

 

[myke6699]

double post- sorry.

 

[myke6699]

Here I'm driving a BMW 135 using N2 tires, the tire I'd normally on most cars except performance cars (N3) and Tuned Cars (S1). Even with the Ferrari F2007, I would use N1 or N2 because of the amount of downforce I'm already getting from the vehicle.

The thing to watch is your throttle when cornering especially the exit. With anything even AWD, you have to be aware of how much throttle and how fast you are especially when using N3 (Road) tires. I find S1 to be quite grippy and even more so with S2 that I've stopped using it except when I want to make it onto the leaderboards.

If you're using either DS3 or sixaxis, it's much harder (although not impossible) to control the throttle (and the brakes). Even when I first switched to steering wheel/pedals, I was using both Traction Control and Stability Management for a good couple of months before I could actually drive without the aids. I'd recommend setting the TC to at least 1 or 2 for a good control of the rear wheel with any high hp FR or MR cars (599, 430, NSX etc.) until you get the hang of it.

And of course, I'm looking forward to the improvent to the GT's physics and hopefully in the upcoming demo- there's a promise that both the cars and the tires would behave more realistically.

 

[tony1311]

I said i won't get into details but maybe i should ,to make my point more clear.

-Take the GTLM with standard weight and power and any r tires. The amount of lift-off oversteer you will get ,even at really low speeds(70-80 km/h) is ridiculous.
-Take the Amuse with any r-tires and the tail will flick when on full throttle even with 4th or 5th gear and even at corners like 130r. Isn't that ridiculous?
-With any car on s tires they all feel like hummers while braking...there isn't any chance to kick the brake to help the turn in.
-Any car with n tires=driving on the wet.

 

[Dave A]

No, I used to get lift of oversteer in my front wheel drive 306 TDi pretty easilly.
you are grossley mistaking a steep learning curve and a difficulty in feel (particularly with the pad) with poor physcis. The game is not perfect, but plenty of tests have proven that the grip thresholds in GT5 are pretty damn good and close to the real thing. The real thing in the dry that is. The R tyres are super grippy too, I don't get why you are complaining about thoes lacking grip, the're much grippier than any tyre I've driven with irl. So are the S tyres, the N tyres are right for standard road tyres

 

[Stotty]

Lateral grip is modelled fairly well in GT5P, but traction is modelled poorly.

For example... Driving the 135i in the on-line time trial on N1's is not realistic, despite N1's supposedly being representative of the tyres fitted to the car in real life. A real 135i will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line without spinning its wheels. Yet exiting the hairpin at Suzuka, even with the wheels pointing straight, the wheels spin up at anything more than 75% throttle as the car hits its torque peak.

And once the wheels start spinning it's as though they lose 100% of their available grip immediately.

I think GT5P part of the problem is that GT5P doesn't model the front to rear weight transfer that comes when you get on the gas smoothly at the apex that loads the rear tyres, giving them more grip than if you just jump on the gas.

 

[nevertell]

Well, with the ds3, if you use the R/L 2 buttons to throttle/brake, it is impossible. At least it feels to me as if there are only three "pre-sets"- 0, 20% and 100%. There is a certain deadzone.

 

[Dave A]

Lateral grip is modelled fairly well in GT5P, but traction is modelled poorly.

For example... Driving the 135i in the on-line time trial on N1's is not realistic, despite N1's supposedly being representative of the tyres fitted to the car in real life. A real 135i will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line without spinning its wheels. Yet exiting the hairpin at Suzuka, even with the wheels pointing straight, the wheels spin up at anything more than 75% throttle as the car hits its torque peak.

I'm curious to know how you know this? I don't personally know how the 135i will respond to throttle in 2nd gear, but I have driver less powerfull cars that will happily spin the tyre's in 2nd if you hit full throttle too early even in a straight line.

And once the wheels start spinning it's as though they lose 100% of their available grip immediately.

I agree with this to a degree, I think it's more of a problem with feedback to the player than the grip though. The transition between plenty of grip to almost no grip is pretty quick, but the feedback to the driver during the transition can be rather vague and that's where the problems start. The issue isn't anything close to what tony1311 is describing.

 

[Stotty]

Because I've driven a 135. Even a V8 powered M3 will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line.

My 911 will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line without any fear of the wheels spinning... when it's absolutely chucking it down.

 

[zazaza]

I was thinking today after trying to pull a good lap with the M3 @fuji 550:

Why do i still play (everyday) a game that is unrealistic?

Cars in GT5P seem to get out of control more easily than in real life.(And once they are out of control, it is not that difficult to ''save'' them.)

I won't get into details and stories,i will say just this.

Drive any arcade Time Trial(S tires) and ask yourself :

''Doesn't it feel like i'm driving on a wet track?''

Every person that has played GT5P at my home with the G25 said me:
"That's harder than the real life!". And I always explaind that:

I imagine you drive the M3 in GT5P without traction controls. I don't know how an M3 feels in the real life, but I can imagine that would get out of control easily without Traction control systems. Another point it's that in GT5P you don't have a true sense of speed, and you are taking corners faster than the real life. So it's normal to get out of control.
Anyway, Gran Turismo it's not a perfect sim, but you have to take in account that kind of points.

 

[myke6699]

For example... Driving the 135i in the on-line time trial on N1's is not realistic, despite N1's supposedly being representative of the tyres fitted to the car in real life. A real 135i will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line without spinning its wheels. Yet exiting the hairpin at Suzuka, even with the wheels pointing straight, the wheels spin up at anything more than 75% throttle as the car hits its torque peak.

For the 135, the actual recommended tires are N2-N3.

 

[CodeRedR51]

For the 135, the actual recommended tires are N2-N3.

That seems more like it to me.

Here is how I believe the tires should be set up:

N Rating - UTQG of 700 to 400

S Rating - UTQG of 399 to 200

R Rating - UTQG of 199 to 0

The UTQG for those that do not know is the treadwear rating, which is a good indication of how "sticky" the tires are.

 

[Micdog49]

Every person that has played GT5P at my home with the G25 said me:
"That's harder than the real life!". And I always explaind that:

I imagine you drive the M3 in GT5P without traction controls. I don't know how an M3 feels in the real life, but I can imagine that would get out of control easily without Traction control systems. Another point it's that in GT5P you don't have a true sense of speed, and you are taking corners faster than the real life. So it's normal to get out of control.
Anyway, Gran Turismo it's not a perfect sim, but you have to take in account that kind of points.

You're right, the reason you get that oversteer and 'wet' feeling to the car is the speed perception. In reality, an M3 is an awsome car, but remember most people are driving in GT5 with the Traction control/ASM off. Try leaving all your aids at the default position and you get that effect you see in driving a real car, every day. When you drive in the game, it is very unlikely that you watch your speedo' upon entrance to every corner because it distracts your concentration from the road. Drive a corner in the game and look at your speed mid corner. Then do an interweb search to find the average speed of that corner (do it on either Fuji or Suzuka) and compare it to what you are doing in an 'average' car. The results will probably surprise you.

 

[Radracing]

Because I've driven a 135. Even a V8 powered M3 will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line.

My 911 will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line without any fear of the wheels spinning... when it's absolutely chucking it down.

That is probably with your traction control on in your real car and traction control turned off in game.

 

[LongbowX]

Because I've driven a 135. Even a V8 powered M3 will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line.

My 911 will take full throttle in 2nd in a straight line without any fear of the wheels spinning... when it's absolutely chucking it down.

That is probably with your traction control on in your real car and traction control turned off in game.

It's probably more like a lot of the weight in the 911 is on the rear tires in the first place because there's an engine sitting back there - and under acceleration, there's even more weight pushing down on the rear tires. It makes it more difficult to break the tires loose.

Not to mention: it depends on the surface. Not all surfaces have the same traction. Also: temperature. Surfaces temperature also varies the grip. Comparing grip in two different circumstances and places can be difficult.

 

[Stotty]

That is probably with your traction control on in your real car and traction control turned off in game.

I know how to turn the traction control off.

It's probably more like a lot of the weight in the 911 is on the rear tires in the first place because there's an engine sitting back there - and under acceleration, there's even more weight pushing down on the rear tires. It makes it more difficult to break the tires loose.

Not to mention: it depends on the surface. Not all surfaces have the same traction. Also: temperature. Surfaces temperature also varies the grip. Comparing grip in two different circumstances and places can be difficult.

Yes, I understand that... one of the 911's strengths is its traction. But I'm not running anything special tyre wise (rear tyres are 265/35/18 Conti's), and I very much doubt my 911 has more grip in the wet than a 135 has in the dry.

 

[LongbowX]

Yes, I understand that... one of the 911's strengths is its traction. But I'm not running anything special tyre wise (rear tyres are 265/35/18 Conti's), and I very much doubt my 911 has more grip in the wet than a 135 has in the dry.

Well, I figured you knew that, I just linked your post for reference. Though, you didn't explicitly say that the test of full throttle in second gear was in the wet. Also, the Conti's grip is actually not bad: though it probably doesn't matter in terms of your argument.

Just for comparisons sake, I also believe the 135i has more torque available at lower revs that the Porsche.

 

[Seismica]

As many have said the traction/grip in GT5P is flawed.

I said i won't get into details but maybe i should ,to make my point more clear.

-Take the GTLM with standard weight and power and any r tires. The amount of lift-off oversteer you will get ,even at really low speeds(70-80 km/h) is ridiculous.
-Take the Amuse with any r-tires and the tail will flick when on full throttle even with 4th or 5th gear and even at corners like 130r. Isn't that ridiculous?
-With any car on s tires they all feel like hummers while braking...there isn't any chance to kick the brake to help the turn in.
-Any car with n tires=driving on the wet.

You mentioned too much lift off oversteer at low speed, this is a minor problem. But the spinning out in 4th or 5th gear in the Amuse is because your steering inputs are not smooth enough.

Think, in a real car when do you ever use full lock at speeds above 20mph? Quite rarely. for racing it is much the same, with the exception of the low speed hairpins.

The 130R at Suzuka, full lock is... silly.

I know all too well, using a pad whether you use the analogue sticks or the D-pad, a smooth line is actually pretty difficult. With a wheel it is easier to achieve a smooth motion through the corners so it is considerably easier to hit the apex and get a good line out of the corner with minimum steering input. Practice at this will mean you rarely lose grip or even hear any tyre screeching. You may require the odd quick correction out of a corner, but this is dependant on your throttle input aswell.

A smooth yet precise steering and throttle input is the key to this game. It is difficult to achieve both consistently with a controller.

 

[Stotty]

Well, I figured you knew that, I just linked your post for reference. Though, you didn't explicitly say that the test of full throttle in second gear was in the wet. Also, the Conti's grip is actually not bad: though it probably doesn't matter in terms of your argument.

Just for comparisons sake, I also believe the 135i has more torque available at lower revs that the Porsche.

Maybe I used a slang term in my original point... 'chucking it down' = raining very hard

 

[Boffin]

I was thinking today after trying to pull a good lap with the M3 @fuji 550:

Why do i still play (everyday) a game that is unrealistic?

Cars in GT5P seem to get out of control more easily than in real life.(And once they are out of control, it is not that difficult to ''save'' them.)

I won't get into details and stories,i will say just this.

Drive any arcade Time Trial(S tires) and ask yourself :

''Doesn't it feel like i'm driving on a wet track?''

No. What I think whats going on here is you are going faster than you think.

I've noted some of the speed I take at some corners at and I couldn't imagine doing it in some circumstances in real life, in a road car - so I think its more speed perception than losing control of a car too easily.

I'm quite happy with what the physics are doing now. It much more realistic than GT4. With that you couldn't really get much of a drift going compared with what I can do in GT5P.

And especially no with S tyres, as cars should handle more realistically with Ns fitted. DO you use a wheel or a pad?

 

[The Outlaw]

I will say that correcting/saving a car after having a sudden snap oversteer moment is much too easy in the game in comparison to real life, as you don't really have to be anywhere near as precise and as smooth with your inputs as you do in reality. Nor does it seem like the tires breakaway quickly enough, because there seems to be too much of a linear drop off in the tires level of grip once you pass the tires threshold of grip.

In the game I find it fairly easy to correct a huge dose of snap oversteer if I put a rear wheel off at the exit of 130R @ Suzuka doing 120mph plus and sometimes closer to 160mph with 800PP cars on R3's. In reality, suddenly putting a wheel off at those speeds would be nearly impossible to correct unless you had computer like reflexes and reaction times while being extremely smooth with the process of getting the car back in line. In the game you can really saw away at the wheel and the car will still manage to get back in line which is far from being realistic or as challenging as it should be. Should be interesting to see if the GT5 demo improves on this 👍

 

[LongbowX]

Maybe I used a slang term in my original point... 'chucking it down' = raining very hard

Oh really? I didn't know that, thanks. Not familiar enough with foreign slang.