GT7 & PSVR2

[Tidgney]

@Tidgney i think you really need to use VR more.

Yes you are faster in bumper cam after 10 years of practice.

where I am a little annoyed is I’m like .5 behind you so clearly not missing apexes wildly. And racing in VR in A/S (yes the sweatier low ones)

I think personally my driving is better in VR than it’s ever been. I’m top 2/300 in the world across all the races maintain a full SR S



Here is the bumper cam




Edit: it occurred to me, when you said people miss apexes etc running behind yours today I’ve realised that we just have the same apex and arguably some of those curbs are doable at your lines but in VR not so much, because the braking and exit lines are different in the moment.

I will use VR for fun but I won't use it for sport mode until at least there's more information. But I stand by the fact you will miss more apexes in VR and also not drive the perfect line in VR than not in VR. As you go higher in DR that becomes more vital, lower DR it's not so much as there's other improvements that can be made (Braking / accelerating etc.) so apexes and perfect lines become less important. But I never said people will miss apexes wildly even if you miss 1 apex more per lap vs bumper or bonnet cam that's still more than I want to miss if I'm trying to compete (Sport mode).

My lap on Daily Race B was literally done in 5 minutes, I'm quite sure I can go quicker I just couldn't do more at the time due to the plumber and pooping baby (Quite an excuse I know).

As I say if VR was ultimately the quickest way to race on any racing game / simulator every single alien would be doing it (Even more so in iracing with cockpit camera being forced) but it's not. My opinion on that won't change until the data says otherwise but I do enjoy VR offline for fun and also in time trial now I've started doing that. But I only do it in that as I have so many requests for it and some people say the markers don't work in VR so I like to check / make sure and I do enjoy VR when not trying to be competitive. Getting top 10 on bumper (Competitive) vs just getting gold (Fun).

 

[newmedia_dev]

But I stand by the fact you will miss more apexes in VR and also not drive the perfect line in VR than not in VR

Nope mate, practice is practice. You telling me maxpower misses more apexes with chase cam, or that bumper is better than hood cam.

Be rational dude, I absolutely appreciate you can go faster but that’s 2/10ths or 4/10ths

We are are not talking massive stuff. Let’s be really careful I’m not a top split driver or in the “gang” so being top 300 is more representative of most of us than world tour drivers.

As you go higher in DR that becomes more vital, lower DR it's not so much as there's other improvements that can be made (Braking / accelerating etc.) so apexes and perfect lines become less important

I’m in lobbies with Kie, mikal, Kylian with my lap time dude, and then if I drop down a few splits lots of streamers etc.

Hell naïf was going from the back so yes, being good at driving is needed, and im
Holding my own in A and mixed A+ lobbies.

My lap on Daily Race B was literally done in 5 minutes, I'm quite sure I can go quicker

I know but it’s your line in the sand

As I say if VR was ultimately the quickest way to race on any racing game / simulator every single alien would be doing it (Even more so in iracing with cockpit camera being forced) but it's not

If it’s the fastest way round I don’t know, I think it’s easier to cheese the angles in bumpercam. Is there an incentive to go VR? No. But ultimately it’s how virtual racing will go in a few years from now.

The point of of virtual racing is to replicate real racing and driving with a weird camera from the bumper or roof isn’t that. It’s ridge racer pretending you are in a different car.

Edit:

No comment on my clips both VR and Bumper cam. This is part of my problem, that hitting apexes and being aware are completely possible in VR, I checked my turn for those clips.

 

[TheNormsk]

@newmedia_dev @Tidgney

 

[Lord Protector]

@newmedia_dev you have to understand 99% of the people that got - or are trying to get - to one of these events don't do it because of enjoyment... after a while, practicing for hours daily how to cheese the game as much as you can becomes a chore and sort of an investment (I don't think a good one too). It's not important to them if they're getting the most realistic experience, or the best immersion.

It's also a very rational and pragmatic attitude.

 

[Tidgney]

Nope mate, practice is practice. You telling me maxpower misses more apexes with chase cam, or that bumper is better than hood cam.

Be rational dude, I absolutely appreciate you can go faster but that’s 2/10ths or 4/10ths

We are are not talking massive stuff. Let’s be really careful I’m not a top split driver or in the “gang” so being top 300 is more representative of most of us than world tour drivers.

I’m in lobbies with Kie, mikal, Kylian with my lap time dude, and then if I drop down a few splits lots of streamers etc.

Hell naïf was going from the back so yes, being good at driving is needed, and im
Holding my own in A and mixed A+ lobbies.

I know but it’s your line in the sand

If it’s the fastest way round I don’t know, I think it’s easier to cheese the angles in bumpercam. Is there an incentive to go VR? No. But ultimately it’s how virtual racing will go in a few years from now.

The point of of virtual racing is to replicate real racing and driving with a weird camera from the bumper or roof isn’t that. It’s ridge racer pretending you are in a different car.

Edit:

No comment on my clips both VR and Bumper cam. This is part of my problem, that hitting apexes and being aware are completely possible in VR, I checked my turn for those clips.

I'm not arguing around VR. Unless proven otherwise with real data, as in all top split drivers in multiple games using VR then I will stand by my opinion around it. VR is slower in a competitive environment vs other methods. Different camera angles do have an impact (I did a video on that ages ago that I've mentioned).



I'm being very rational, I realise you enjoy VR and that's brilliant, do enjoy it! I enjoy using it when I want to have fun in Gran Turismo! Some people will be faster with it because they don't like other camera angles, and that's good to but it doesn't mean it is the fastest way to drive/play Gran Turismo or any racing game. But it's the same reason most people use bumper / bonnet camera is that it's the easiest / best / quickest way to race. If you miss more apexes in a camera, or don't have as much information in a certain camera (Even bonnet vs bumper has an information issue) then in a competitive environment you are going to lose out on something. Chase cam has it's benefits like all the information about the car (You know every inch of where it is) so it's very similar to bonnet and bumper. But as I have said a few times I have never said somebody can't be fast with it, I'm saying the fastest way to play the game is not in VR. VR has been out for years on PC but we still don't see any jump to it from top split drivers for the same reason so I don't expect any shift in that dynamic due to the advantage of camera angles. If anything iRacing should have everyone in VR if it was the best as you are stuck in the cockpit camera but you don't including the real world racing drivers, and most normally move the camera forward a lot to maximise the viewing angle so they don't miss apexes and can see more of the car. You may think otherwise and you are entitled to that opinion but my opinion on that won't change (Without real world data saying this) and I'm not trying to change your opinion just answering your Tagged posts to me.

@newmedia_dev you have to understand 99% of the people that got - or are trying to get - to one of these events don't do it because of enjoyment... after a while, practicing for hours daily how to cheese the game as much as you can becomes a chore and sort of an investment (I don't think a good one too). It's not important to them if they're getting the most realistic experience, or the best immersion.

It's also very a rational and pragmatic attitude.

It's this plus there is some enjoyment trying to get to the events. Nothing beats getting rank 1 on a leaderboard sometimes after some intense laps but if you are after the ultimate lap I'd rather reduce all risks of missing apexes and nailing the perfect line in the best camera angle for me to do that, whichever camera angle that is in any of the racing games I play.

 

[Chaos Racing]

Yeah the more you use VR the faster you go, takes quite a bit of time and a bit more effort i find but i have beat every single time i put down in 2D

 

[VR-SORN]

A driver using a telescope will never be as fast a driver using a pair of binoculars.

 

[Nebuc72]

I think the skill ceiling is higher on flat but the skill floor is lower in VR.

It's easier to get faster in VR through the extra awareness of the cars behaviour etc. but you'll hit a wall where you're limited by 'reality' wherein flat becomes faster due to the extra vision granted by perspectives you aren't able to replicate in VR (or real life).

I think that wall is really high up though. Like you'd have to be consistently setting top 100 times, if not higher, to need the edge that flat could give you.

 

[Famine]

VR has been out for years on PC but we still don't see any jump to it from top split drivers

As you know, I (have to) watch an awful lot of racing esports and I can only recall one driver in any of them habitually using VR. That said, I can't remember her name for the life of me, but she's an ACC racer.

 

[MetalApe]

I really would like to see the results of a proper expirement to see how well drivers of varying experience and ability can drive in VR vs Flat screen.

Clearly we have quite few seriously fast drivers on Flat Screen. Whereas for me personally, I never got on with flat screen, there was always too much of a disconnect for me to even get into seriously playing any driving game.

My theory is VR has the potential to massively increase the number of players involved in Sim Racing. I certainly wouldn't be here playing GT7 competively without it. The question is how many others are like me? How many are like @Tidgney who can race extremely well on a Flat Screen?

 

[Fezzik]

Yeah the more you use VR the faster you go, takes quite a bit of time and a bit more effort i find but i have beat every single time i put down in 2D

The counter argument would be that putting in time and effort, ie training, would make you better & faster regardless of using VR or not.

 

[BobF]

The counter argument would be that putting in time and effort, ie training, would make you better & faster regardless of using VR or not.

IMO, the finer control offered by wheel/pedals offers greater improvement than VR, however, for ME VR offers improvement in and of itself in awareness of cars around me. It also gives a better sense of terrain.

 

[Fezzik]

IMO, the finer control offered by wheel/pedals offers greater improvement than VR, however, for ME VR offers improvement in and of itself in awareness of cars around me. It also gives a better sense of terrain.

Yeah, when I used the VR my situational awareness in close battles was much better. I’m using the bonnet/roof cam at the moment - as pointed out here I can see the apexes much better but I can’t see what’s right alongside me.

Strengths and weaknesses for everything. I don’t think there’s one superior option, just find what works best for you and most importantly what’s most enjoyable.

 

[05XR8]

IMO, the finer control offered by wheel/pedals offers greater improvement than VR, however, for ME VR offers improvement in and of itself in awareness of cars around me. It also gives a better sense of terrain.

I feel that's the core of VR for GT7. As Tigney says, flat screen is mainly for the fastest in that upper class of fast players. It makes sense to want to see more of the road beneath to get that best view to use all the road.
VR is as the name states, to get the most realistic engagement a game can offer.

 

[newmedia_dev]

I feel that's the core of VR for GT7. As Tigney says, flat screen is mainly for the fastest in that upper class of fast players. It makes sense to want to see more of the road beneath to get that best view to use all the road.
VR is as the name states, to get the most realistic engagement a game can offer.

It’s really interesting when you think about it. I think all these guys would be fast with whatever setup the same way real world racing drivers don’t get to pick their camera they just get to pick the size of the letterbox they look through and go as fast as they can.

So you have this situation where none of the fast peeps would want to change away from what they know which is a very solid point.

Then you have all of these 99.8% that can go faster in VR because the natural camera rationalises the inputs to a more real world experience.

I don’t think I’m right and Tidgney is wrong just that 2 things can be true at the same time, you can be fast with whatever setup and control scheme.

I’m 239th globally for race B this week in VR top 200 for A and haven’t checked C but probably still top 1000 so it’s not like VR is some sort of hindrance when I’ve been playing this game for nearly 30 years in bumper cam.

But I will say as an avid race fan all my life I’d rather watch VR/Cockpit or Tele cam racing than bumper cam especially is made up theoretical cars like the x19 etc.

 

[Revengel]

Let me lead off with this: Everyone should choose what each individual prefers. I fully support @Tidgney going with a Flat Screen for sport mode. I also fully support @newmedia_dev for going full VR . . . same as I do. For the record, I'm a better driver now in VR than I have ever been on a flat screen . . . I think. Hard to compare my best days on Gran Turismo thru Gran Turismo 4 with what I do now but I digress . . .


There is an angle I think is not represented here in the comparison.

Spoiler: Boring and Long frame of reference speak

I started playing driving games - note the terminology - starting with Driver on the Commodore Pet computer. From Iron Man Off-Roader to Pole Position, from Hard Drivin' to Out Run . . . I played as many as I could. Got to Gran Turismo and it was what I was chasing since the days of wishing for a Mach 5 (see avatar.)

One thing I've done since I could play a game with a wheel - Out Run and likely Pole Position (and Sega GT) come to mind - was try to use my automotive knowledge and skills and translate them to the game I was playing at the time. But for all of these things, I was tricking my brain into thinking it was controlling a car/truck/boat/whatever rather than playing a game.

This continued with Gran Turismo on my 13" RCA Color TV.

Just sticking with Gran Turismo up to and including Gran Turismo 7, I've played on a flat screen. I was used to playing a game on a flat screen and - much like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 - I was optimized for it.

But something else was going on concurrently.

Charlotte, named for the character from Samurai Showdown, is my 1986 VF500F Interceptor. I put 40k miles on her in under two years. She's the greatest dance partner I've ever had. I knew what to expect from her and she knew what to expect from me. The fact I could catch and drop GSXr 750s and even 1000cc sport bikes showed just how in tune we were with one another.

I'm going somewhere with this. Trust me.

What was happening is I was able to apply my real-world knowledge and reflexes along with seat time to uphold a phenomenal partnership with the road. By understanding just how to get 95% out of Charlotte on the road/track/etc. vs. most folks who weren't getting 20% was evident.

I could apply my natural ability to control a bike on tarmac.


Enter Gran Turismo 7 in VR.

I spent the first 25 years playing this series on a flat screen. Every driving game was played on a flat(ish) screen. Now was my chance to apply a more natural feel, and I've only had two years of experience in VR. All of that is in Gran Turismo 7.

After acclimating to VR (again, thank you GT Planet) I was finally able to bring my natural talent to bear in a safe environment. While I don't own the 4 wheel equivalent to a 500cc race bike, I can still apply some bits (safely) on the road. In GT7 I can safely bring all of that out. My times and results are definitely better now then they were pre-VR. The current GTWS also backs that up for me as a driver.

Spoiler: My Hot Take

If a person has spent his/her lifetime perfecting how to approach a game, a flat screen will always be superior for that player.

On the other hand, if they have always been attuned to driving/racing a real car, then VR (once acclimated to the experience) will be the best for that driver.

Here's some data for you:

In GT Sport, there was the Lewis Hamilton challenge. There are a few on these forums who beat his time set in Gran Turismo.

Pretty sure none of them are as good at the game as Miyazono. Add Lewis Hamilton and any F-1 champion to that list.

I guarantee none of players who finished ahead of Hamilton's time are as good as Hamilton if put behind the wheel of any F-1, F-2, F-E, etc. on a physical track. Add any Gran Turismo World Champion to that list.

TL;DR: it's not the method (flat screen or VR) it's the player or the driver.

Granted, that's just my opinion.