GTP_WRS (GT5) Week 134 : Screamin' Wankel
- Thread starter EDK
- 158 comments
- 9,462 views
Looks like I got some catching up to do.
DTM
Premium
- 2,503
- Netherlands
- GTP_DTM
- X What?
Nice one Dennis 👍 You won't sleep well mate, you'll be re-running that sector 2 in your head all night
That's impossible, be cause i have know idea how i did that T2
Hope i get a flash back when i run later today 
Only downside is you gave me a bad wake up with your new splits. You had to take my only P1 on the board. Couldn't you wait one night and let me enjoy my night of fame
Very nice T1 Chris 👍. I saw a .1xx twice but not that low.And Andrew you could left your G27 where it was
- 4,455
- Teesdale
- GTP_Vagabond
Sorry Dennis, I've developed a short term addiction to this combo... ...and its all the fault of this car. On these tyres, dicing with the Armco, this is a sweet drive. 👍
Couldn't resist another quick blast this morning before I head out:
15.239
16.331
Best 2nd sector so far with a decent last sector (I think...) and up just over a tenth on the lap. So now I'll spend all week trying to do that again with a low 15.1 first sector (best so far is 15.110)
Nice hit with the wheel there Andrew. 👍
...and its all the fault of this car. On these tyres, dicing with the Armco, this is a sweet drive. 👍Couldn't resist another quick blast this morning before I head out:
15.239
16.331
Best 2nd sector so far with a decent last sector (I think...) and up just over a tenth on the lap. So now I'll spend all week trying to do that again with a low 15.1 first sector (best so far is 15.110)
Nice hit with the wheel there Andrew. 👍
- 4,074
- buenos aires
- GTP_Roamer2629
Wrs Dictator?????? That's a good one 👍
Will continue putting myself to shame, surely this one will be easier than last week...
Will continue putting myself to shame, surely this one will be easier than last week...
- 22
- Hungary
- GTP_Simifeltham
Car still not broken in which is a pain but had another blast
15.287
16.419
Gained loads in T3 over 0.2 on the lap
15.287
16.419
Gained loads in T3 over 0.2 on the lap
- 16,271
- Boise, ID
- GTP_EDK
I figured I would just wear the badge, since it was given to me.
I will change it back, at some point.
DTM
Premium
- 2,503
- Netherlands
- GTP_DTM
- X What?
Way to bump me out off the podium!
I'll give it back to you
Awful first 2 splits, specially T2
But my best T3 
15.224
16.466
Hope i can find some time tonight. Otherwise i have to hope you guys would improve anymore.
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
@EDK: Putting our differences aside, I'm asking you this because you have real life track experience and seem to be very well educated when it comes to cars and racing in general. Also would like the advice not only to help me in this TT, but to also have a better understanding in general.
Alright. This car seems to have a poweband of 6000 RPM - 8500 RPM...correct? My question is, what is the ideal shift point and why? I'm still trying to get a good understanding of the powerband and how it is used effectively. If anyone else with the knowledge would like to answer, that's fine too. I just thought of you EDK because of your recent discussions with your Laguna track time. Thanks for any and all information regarding this.
I would also like information on how to effectively tune the transmission regarding the powerband. That can be pm'd since we are not tuning in this event, I would just like to know for future reference. Thanks.
Alright. This car seems to have a poweband of 6000 RPM - 8500 RPM...correct? My question is, what is the ideal shift point and why? I'm still trying to get a good understanding of the powerband and how it is used effectively. If anyone else with the knowledge would like to answer, that's fine too. I just thought of you EDK because of your recent discussions with your Laguna track time. Thanks for any and all information regarding this.
I would also like information on how to effectively tune the transmission regarding the powerband. That can be pm'd since we are not tuning in this event, I would just like to know for future reference. Thanks.
- 4,074
- buenos aires
- GTP_Roamer2629
I tend to look at the settings menu where they show the hp/torque curve see what the Max power / RPM is, I'm not sure what this particular car is but the ford for example had it as Max power @ 7000rpm or so, the ideal shift point should be around 7500 so just after by about 500. This is a pretty quick way of getting the ideal, you could of course go and check at the acceleration test.
When tuning gears I use only one technique, similar to Chris' gears but I play around with the final value before tuning, for me I check to see what the top speed would be, that way I have a good idea of what to aim for while tuning the gears. That generally works with every car for me, and keeps the rpm in the powerband range so no need to stress too much over the powerband.
- 16,271
- Boise, ID
- GTP_EDK
The optimum shift point has to do with maintaining the highest combination of power and torque while accelerating under full throttle conditions. You almost always want to shift at the "cliff", where the increase in HP drops off. However, that's not always the case, since 2 other factors come into play.
First, the torque curve often peaks much earlier than the power curve, and the dropoff at higher RPM's can be severe enough to that it slows acceleration at the top of the power band.
Second, the transmission is a limiting factor, since the RPM that you will be at when you shift to the next gear is determined by a combination of the RPM's you shift at and the ratio of the next gear you are selecting.
For a stock combo like this one, I just take the car into the "Acceleration Test" section from the main screen. I normally complete a run shifting AT the Redline. And then I try different shift points, to see if they make me slower or faster than my ghost. I try shift points that are both higher (Up to the limiter) and lower (keep going lower until it is not faster than your ghost).
With respect to transmission tuning, my normal method is to use the acceleration test for this as well, as it gives me an easy way to get on track with a straight and full throttle acceleration through all gears immediately available.
First step I use is to make the gear ratios as close as possible, meaning that first gear and top gear are closer together than they would be in stock form. They are often close enough that first gear is useable in the slowest corners on the track, especially when using a 4 or 5 speed transmission, or when the track has a combination of very high speed and very low speed sections.
That's achieved by using the "Tranny Trick". First step is to make the final ratio as low as possible (highest number = lowest ratio). Then select the lowest possible top speed preset. Finally, set first gear as high as possible (slider to far left, highest ratio = lowest number) and set top gear as low as possible (slider to far right, lowest ratio = highest number).
Next, I adjust the final drive ratio to something I think is going to be right, this is a rough cut, but I like to do it so that I can visually see the spreads between the other gears on the graphic when I go to adjust them.
Next is a rough adjustment of the gears in between first and top. In most transmissions, the second to highest gear will also go to the far right (lowest ratio, highest number). Then the other gears will be a relatively even spread between your "forced" settings.
My end goal is to take the transmission out of the equation as a limiting factor on maximizing my power under throttle. For me, that means making the RPM's at their lowest point (moment that you shift into the next highest gear) the same for every shift. So, for example, if I am tuning a car with a 7,000 RPM redline, I check to see the RPM's on the next gear for every shift. If one gear goes to 5,500 RPM, and another to 5,200 RPM, I continue to adjust the gears to even this out.
Usually, especially with 6 speed transmissions, you will not be able to achieve this for every shift. I normally tune the car so that the last shift (5th to 6th in that example) ends up resulting in a bit higher RPM than all other shifts. So it might be that every shift drops to 5,500, and then the last shift is 5,700, something like that.
After I have evened the gears out, I still do the same shift point check I mentioned for a non-tuning week. You still need to know what shift point gives you optimum acceleration. I've very occasionally seen a circumstance for which this is different enough from redline that I need to make further adjustments to individual gears to maintain my go in strategy of keeping the RPM the motor drops to the same for all shifts. I can't explain why this would happen, other than the fact that when this range gets broader, it's easier to see small differences in RPM. It's probably a fine tuning thing.
Once all that is done, you have to take the car out on the track it will be used on for the combo in question. The normal goal would be to make use of every possible RPM, meaning you would like the car to be right at your shift point in the top gear when you are at the braking point at the end of the highest speed straight. There's a few reasons that may not be 100% practical.
First, it might mean you cannot make the best use of the other gears in other areas of the track. For example, it might be more practical to have a higher final drive (lower number) in order to be able to use first in the lowest speed corner.
Or, in order to avoid awkward shifts at the end of shorter straights, where you are deciding between hitting the limiter or making a quick shift up and then back down. All of that costs you time, possibly more time than can be made up by using every last RPM on the longest/highest speed straight.
Finally, if you plan to use the car online for the same combo, the draft is a factor. In that case, you have to decide whether you would like to adjust your top gear or your final ratio to account for it. But something to keep in mind.
Real life racing - We are stuck with the "stock settings" in the cars I race. Gear selection for corners and shift points can both be important, especially since I do not have flappy paddles in the race car, I have to actually shift the thing!
We have a dyno readout of the motor, so we know where the power and torque curves are, just like in the tuning screens on GT. We set our shift light to maximize power, while keeping engine life in mind. We're a couple hundred RPM below the top of the power, just so that it allows us to wind it out if needed, but preserve it as well.
In the race car, sometimes 3rd gear is faster that second in certain corners, if momentum can be maintained. You pick up the time you would have lost in the downshift and upshift. Other times, you have to use 2nd in those same corners to get a pull on traffic, if you could not maintain momentum.
It's different from what we do here, since preservation of the equipment and other (sometimes much slower, sometimes erratic) cars on track are factors.
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- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
I tend to look at the settings menu where they show the hp/torque curve see what the Max power / RPM is, I'm not sure what this particular car is but the ford for example had it as Max power @ 7000rpm or so, the ideal shift point should be around 7500 so just after by about 500. This is a pretty quick way of getting the ideal, you could of course go and check at the acceleration test.
When tuning gears I use only one technique, similar to Chris' gears but I play around with the final value before tuning, for me I check to see what the top speed would be, that way I have a good idea of what to aim for while tuning the gears. That generally works with every car for me, and keeps the rpm in the powerband range so no need to stress too much over the powerband.
Ok, looking at the graph right now for the Ford. Max power is @ 6000rpm actually but anyway, why would you want to shift after the max HP @ 6000rpm when the power is dropping, according to the graph. That's the part I don't understand. For the Ford, the powerband is between 5000 - 6000rpm. Why shift after that when the power is on the down swing. That's where my confusion sets in. Yea, I could go test it out myself, but I would like to know the "why's" as well as the "hows" if you get what I mean.
EDIT: @EDK: Just saw your post after I responded to manumanu. Thank you, you have just made it all clear to me. I totally get it now. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. Appreciate your time and knowledge.
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- 16,271
- Boise, ID
- GTP_EDK
To add to my comments.
With the Ford, the 4 speed gearbox is the most limiting factor. You're actually going for the maximum "average" power and torque across all time on full throttle. If you shifted at peak power, you'd end up being too low in the RPM range in the next gear.
I've also found in the Ford that short shift was beneficial in some corners, as it allowed me more time at Wide Open Throttle, since traction was another factor.
I was shifting right at the Redline in the Ford, and did not find a big difference between that and another 200 RPM higher or lower. It was all about the same.
No problem. 👍EDIT: @EDK: Just saw your post after I responded to manumanu. Thank you, you have just made it all clear to me. I totally get it now. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. Appreciate your time and knowledge.
- 1,492
- Tucson,AZ,USA
- Windy_1238
I found that over revving a bit was beneficial.
15.405
17.158
15.405
17.158
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
I further understand now what you are saying with the Ford. 👍
I owe you big time as your advice has just helped me shaved off over .350 on my current time in this TT. Turns out I apparently haven't been using the powerband to its full potential and shifting at all the wrong points. Thank you again Kevin, appreciate your advice.
DTM
Premium
- 2,503
- Netherlands
- GTP_DTM
- X What?
My last splits for this week. Find some time at the line, be cause of a better T3.
Don't know if i will submit. By the end of this WRS, i will decide by the splits on the board if i will. Wish i could run it till the end. Enjoyed it a lot while it lasted
Good luck everybody
15.259
16.420
Don't know if i will submit. By the end of this WRS, i will decide by the splits on the board if i will. Wish i could run it till the end. Enjoyed it a lot while it lasted
Good luck everybody
15.259
16.420
- 4,074
- buenos aires
- GTP_Roamer2629
New splits, 2 tenths better at the line
Not fully broken in yet
15.623
16.938
Not fully broken in yet
15.623
16.938
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- 1,303
- Thessaloniki
- anastasis14, GTP_Anastasis14
16.623
15.376
16.583
Last edited:
- 3,182
- USA
- GTP_CarlosF
15.336
16.635
16.635
