GTS - force feedback thread

[Haitauer]

Im starting a new thread here around one of the main concerns on GTS and on any car simulator - Force Feedback (FFB). This thread might die and fade away in few short posts, but I have tried. Tried to collect information, opinions, suggestions and complains in one place. We might add questionaires here in the future, if needed.

For the record, I am and have been for most of the time with GTS been using the Thrustmaster T-GT.

What made me start this thread one might be asking. Well I was due to travelling and other duties not able to play too much of GTS for a little while. When I returned to GTS I noticed how agonizingly numb the FFB is compared to prettymuch anything else. This feeling was heightened by my comparison to Dirt Rally 2.0 the very same evening. Especially on asphalt and Rallycross I really enjoyed the ffb compared to the numbness of GTS. It feels like GTS is more or less just rumbles, rattles and vibrations instead of actual FORCE feedback. Settings dont really change this - they just affect how detailed and powerful the rumbles are. I feel like ffb in GTS is trying to be TOO accurate for the wheel to handle it, and im now speaking of T-GT - THE wheel made for this game. Is there similar feeling with other wheels? Similarly priced Fanatec or with more pricier wheels?

Give me your thoughts on this - maybe we can build a meaningfull conversation and a study on this problematic subject. Even the trolls - just spill your thoughts here. There might be a hint of truth even in troll messages.

Thank you

 

[Kalder]

I have a G29, and I'm not sure, but I think I noticed that a few updates ago it looked like they managed to reduce input lag for that wheel, either that, or I've magically become a lot better at drifting...
Edit: Sorry, just realized this was about FFB, anyway, output lag for FFB could have been improved as well. (Never really heard anyone about lag in FFB, but I bet it's a thing when it comes to game design)

 

[Tier_NaNo]

I've also noticed a numbness in the FFB. It feels to me a lot of detail has gone missing. I wasn't too sure if it was perhaps my wheel that was dying?

I noticed it with the Autopolis update... But I've gotten used to it now. Anyways all I play is GT Sport so I can compare it to other titles unfortunately.

 

[Haitauer]

I have a G29, and I'm not sure, but I think I noticed that a few updates ago it looked like they managed to reduce input lag for that wheel, either that, or I've magically become a lot better at drifting...
Edit: Sorry, just realized this was about FFB, anyway, output lag for FFB could have been improved as well. (Never really heard anyone about lag in FFB, but I bet it's a thing when it comes to game design)

Lag or no lag - FFB does have a big impact on ones ability to drift. A good point for the conversation there. 👍

 

[VBR]

The FFB information is nowhere as detailed or nuanced as GT6 (I've used a G29, as well as a CSR via Drive Hub in GTS). However, my biggest gripe is the unrealistic vibration effect when cars understeer, you'll hardly even feel it on race cars but on untuned road cars it's super exaggerated. I wish we could tone it down & even turn it off completely as we can in other games. I really hate having this forced on & the end result is that I don't want to play the game at all.

 

[Donnced]

Since launch Sincerely GTS got a real numb FFB on my T150Pro and as @VBR I don't like the understear rumbling effect either, really would appreciate an slider or option to deactivate that effect.

I found that GTS FFB is behind GT6 one's and other racing games of this generation like the project cars, assetto corsa or even games as Dirt Rally 1 & 2.

After now 2 years since GTS launch I don't think PD will bother to improve the FFB.

 

[BaareCZ]

T300 RS here. I can only compare it to PC2 and I don't really see that big of a difference (except for the number of in-game settings options). Mind you, I have the FFB set to 50% max in both games. Mostly because I just don't feel like the wheel would take higher settings for long without permanent consequences. As for the rattle understeer effect. Have any of you actualy ever understeered at higher speeds in a real car on a dry road? I have and this is almost exactly what it feels like. Vibrations in the steering wheel. Not that strong though. BUT. Imagine you are in a car with much much stiffer suspension on very wide slick tyres (much more grip). I think that's what understeer in a race car would feel like. Except the whole car would vibrate and not just the steering wheel. I'm just guessing though, I've never driven a race car. But I agree that an option to tone it down or turn it off completely would definitely be appreciated.

 

[breeminator]

It feels like GTS is more or less just rumbles, rattles and vibrations instead of actual FORCE feedback. Settings dont really change this - they just affect how detailed and powerful the rumbles are.

All I can say is with my CSW v2.5 there is plenty of force, way more than I can cope with (I have a problem with one of my thumbs due to an old injury), I have to have the force at maybe 20% of what the wheel can deliver. The max force feedback the wheel can deliver when driven by GTS is much stronger than my real car. And what I feel when I go over kerbs isn't just rumbles, rattles and vibrations, it actually pulls the wheel in the direction you'd expect from the 3D shape of the kerb, you have to put real physical work in to correct it as it will pull the steering and change the direction of travel of the car. You notice this most on Dragon Trail where there are many different shapes of kerb and you can tell exactly where the wheels are relative to features on the kerb.

 

[Haitauer]

All I can say is with my CSW v2.5 there is plenty of force, way more than I can cope with (I have a problem with one of my thumbs due to an old injury), I have to have the force at maybe 20% of what the wheel can deliver. The max force feedback the wheel can deliver when driven by GTS is much stronger than my real car. And what I feel when I go over kerbs isn't just rumbles, rattles and vibrations, it actually pulls the wheel in the direction you'd expect from the 3D shape of the kerb, you have to put real physical work in to correct it as it will pull the steering and change the direction of travel of the car. You notice this most on Dragon Trail where there are many different shapes of kerb and you can tell exactly where the wheels are relative to features on the kerb.

I have noticed theres plenty of power in T-GT too. So much I have also occasionally had my wrist/elbow/shoulder irritated from driving. But for me the problem is how sharp and short the forces in ffb are. Id like to see longer, slower and more static effects instead of these fast hits and rumble.

 

[breeminator]

for me the problem is how sharp and short the forces in ffb are. Id like to see longer, slower and more static effects instead of these fast hits and rumble.

Okay, I might be feeling something different to you there, as I have FEI on the wheel set quite low, at 20, which smooths things out quite a lot. It's a bit of a grey area what features should be provided by the wheel vs the game.

 

[Scaff]

T300 RS here. I can only compare it to PC2 and I don't really see that big of a difference (except for the number of in-game settings options). Mind you, I have the FFB set to 50% max in both games. Mostly because I just don't feel like the wheel would take higher settings for long without permanent consequences. As for the rattle understeer effect. Have any of you actualy ever understeered at higher speeds in a real car on a dry road? I have and this is almost exactly what it feels like. Vibrations in the steering wheel. Not that strong though. BUT. Imagine you are in a car with much much stiffer suspension on very wide slick tyres (much more grip). I think that's what understeer in a race car would feel like. Except the whole car would vibrate and not just the steering wheel. I'm just guessing though, I've never driven a race car. But I agree that an option to tone it down or turn it off completely would definitely be appreciated.

This has been covered before, and I've experienced understeer on road and track, in road cars and race prepped cars, and it's not accurate at all.

What you are describing is wheel skip and occurs after understeer, the steering feel from understeer is a significant reduction in steering weight due to a massive drop in self aligning torque.

 

[Haitauer]

Okay, I might be feeling something different to you there, as I have FEI on the wheel set quite low, at 20, which smooths things out quite a lot. It's a bit of a grey area what features should be provided by the wheel vs the game.

No such controls in Thrustmaster wheels.. totally dependent on games settings.

 

[BaareCZ]

This has been covered before, and I've experienced understeer on road and track, in road cars and race prepped cars, and it's not accurate at all.

What you are describing is wheel skip and occurs after understeer, the steering feel from understeer is a significant reduction in steering weight due to a massive drop in self aligning torque.

Great video, man. Thanks for the clarification. 👍 I really should play some rally games too. The rally in GTS is not realistic at all. I hope. Any tips for a good rally game on PS4? I don't have a gaming PC.

 

[Kalder]

Great video, man. Thanks for the clarification. 👍 I really should play some rally games too. The rally in GTS is not realistic at all. I hope. Any tips for a good rally game on PS4? I don't have a gaming PC.

Dirt 4 was on sale a while ago, and WRC7 is nice and shouldn't be too expensive either now that WRC8 is released.

 

[Haitauer]

This has been covered before, and I've experienced understeer on road and track, in road cars and race prepped cars, and it's not accurate at all.

What you are describing is wheel skip and occurs after understeer, the steering feel from understeer is a significant reduction in steering weight due to a massive drop in self aligning torque.

That is still a brilliant video to explain why FFB is so much a matter of taste as it can really never be perfect for everyone and everything.

I guess the update for Dirt Rally 2.0 that added settings for surface details fixet a lot of this in that game?

My opinion here is Thrustmaster and/or PDI have here wasted the potential of the rumble motor (T-DFB) in T-GT by using it in so high frequency. If this motor did better job at surface detail it would nicely combine with "clean" FFB on wheel. As it is, im not using T-DFB at all as its just a numbing buzz frequency. I even thought of detaching T-DFB and attaching it to my chair..

 

[breeminator]

Re where surface effects are felt, my preference is for the currently woeful API situation to be addressed, so we have a completely flexible generic API for devices. Games having to support specific hardware is a joke. The game should simply output information over a generic API, and the hardware should provide the ability for the user to do whatever they want with that information. The game shouldn't need to know about devices to vibrate the seat etc, it should operate in the application domain, e.g. it outputs that a particular effect is a road surface effect. The translation of the application domain into hardware action belongs in the hardware not the game. So if the user has vibration in their seat, they should configure that hardware to use the road surface effect information produced by the game. They should be able to configure their wheel to use or not use that information, so they can have it felt through the seat, through the wheel, or both, or neither. The advantage of doing it this way is if a company innovates and develops some new piece of hardware that makes use of the information in a novel way, the game doesn't need changing to support it, you'd just plug it in, tell it to handle that information coming out of the game, and it would just work.

 

[Haitauer]

Re where surface effects are felt, my preference is for the currently woeful API situation to be addressed, so we have a completely flexible generic API for devices. Games having to support specific hardware is a joke. The game should simply output information over a generic API, and the hardware should provide the ability for the user to do whatever they want with that information. The game shouldn't need to know about devices to vibrate the seat etc, it should operate in the application domain, e.g. it outputs that a particular effect is a road surface effect. The translation of the application domain into hardware action belongs in the hardware not the game. So if the user has vibration in their seat, they should configure that hardware to use the road surface effect information produced by the game. They should be able to configure their wheel to use or not use that information, so they can have it felt through the seat, through the wheel, or both, or neither. The advantage of doing it this way is if a company innovates and develops some new piece of hardware that makes use of the information in a novel way, the game doesn't need changing to support it, you'd just plug it in, tell it to handle that information coming out of the game, and it would just work.

This would be brilliant. Maybe something for PS5 wishlist..

Sadly many standarts like this are overrun by more profitable solutions. One form of protectionism.

 

[John G]

T300RS - Torque 3, sensitivity 10

I find the quality and detail of the FFB very lacking. It's just basically a spring effect with a little kerb rumble and that weird understeer grind. There is very little self aligning torque in there, i can't harfly feel through the wheel that I'm getting oversteer, it's mostly through visual feedback.
AC is miles ahead, it feels like they actually model the cars and the physics properly, so FFB info is automatically generated. It feels faked or synthetic in GTS

 

[Clean Racer]

Just some food for thought here - how about people post up there wheel, wheel settings, prefered DOR and in game FFB settings so that readers have some frame of reference?

I often read players posting that they use really high or maximum FFB strength settings. This type of set up most often causes clipping which can drown out any other effects.

I am on my phone right now but I will post my settings when im back on the wheel.

 

[Paul_BNR32]

sometimes i dont understand the FFB.

I use a G29 since release. ingame odometer 64810km. mayby 30k km of them ist from drifing.
and even after this long time, its hard to choose the right FFB for racing.

i read often that a lot of people use 0/1/1 for racing, because they feel the car - on race cars works that for me too, not perfect, but okay.
on street cars i find that extremly too soft, there is no feeling

my settings

race:
0/3/4 for streetcar
0/1/2 for racecar - at the moment trying 0/2/5

drift

dependent on car settings

0/1/1 to 0/1/5


I would be interested what setting the pro racer use especially at the sport race. on replays the car is calm and stable and i´m fighting with under- or oversteer.