Handicapped/advantaged cars in GT5

[Slurm]

It's being discussed in the tyre degradation topic and I want to post about it but it's OT there and I think it deserves a thread to serve as a warning.

Some cars in GT5 have a definite grip penalty that can only be partly negated with tuning. This isn't just a handling characteristic. Tuning an alternative would give much better results.

The "Woodone Advan Clarion" GT-R and the Eneos SC430 are two good examples.

Another car that springs to mind is the McLaren MP4-12C. In real life this car is spectacular in corners, with exceptional suspension and computer-controlled brake-steer, epic brakes. It can't be fixed up to even "competitive" in GT5 though.

Similarly, some cars have weird grip advantages and are untouchable at their PP level. NSX Type-R, R35 GT-R.

I didn't know about these cars until I had played online for many many hours or learned it on this forum.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I don't think I understand the the OP, but...

the MP4-12C's real world handling is probably due in large part to its very advanced traction control system. Most drivers in GT turn that off as a matter of pride. Not sure if they should, but... there you go.

The NSX has always been a very good handling car (if you can handle an MR). It is very low, with a wide stance and great weight distribution.

The R35, again, has fantastic onboard computers controlling its all-wheel-drive system to give the driver unmatched control.

As to the NSX and R35, what can we say. Someone did a fantastic job creating those cars, and they provide fantastic performance for their price point.

 

[Tornado]

Chaparral 2J will destroy anything that doesn't have a PP level at least 40 points higher.

50-60 if a High-RPM turbo is installed.

 

[calico]

Golf R32 is nothing like real life as it only runs front wheel drive until traction loss occurs then it transfers power to the rear wheels but in gt5 you cannot even adjust it to the front. Unfortunately thats because this is a game and not real life.
Agree with VOL JBOLAZ about the R35 it is an awesome car in real life down to its fantastic computer controlled systems hence it has the fastest lap around the ring for a standard production car.

 

[oopssorryy]

Tire Width. Because we can't change it in game, many of the older cars can't compete. There are some new cars (I remember the S15 being talked about not to long ago) that has this same issue. Some call it Skinny Tire Syndrome. Racing a car that suffers from S.T.S. is like being in an egg toss with a blind partner.

 

[Rudenut]

I don't think I understand the the OP, but...

the MP4-12C's real world handling is probably due in large part to its very advanced traction control system. Most drivers in GT turn that off as a matter of pride. Not sure if they should, but... there you go.

The NSX has always been a very good handling car (if you can handle an MR). It is very low, with a wide stance and great weight distribution.

The R35, again, has fantastic onboard computers controlling its all-wheel-drive system to give the driver unmatched control.

As to the NSX and R35, what can we say. Someone did a fantastic job creating those cars, and they provide fantastic performance for their price point.

I agree that these cars, among others, are awesome machines. If the PP system better accounted their exceptional features this thread would not exist. Or it would be changed to ,"Cars that require further PP balancing."

An NSX Type R that destroys most other cars at a given PP level should be given PP until it matches more competitive cars levels. Same can be said for any car that dominates at a particular level.

 

[Cowboys965]

The Caterham I think is below what pp it's listed as.

 

[phil_75]

Golf R32 is nothing like real life as it only runs front wheel drive until traction loss occurs then it transfers power to the rear wheels but in gt5 you cannot even adjust it to the front. Unfortunately thats because this is a game and not real life.
Agree with VOL JBOLAZ about the R35 it is an awesome car in real life down to its fantastic computer controlled systems hence it has the fastest lap around the ring for a standard production car.

Its funny you say that because when i drove it i thought PD had made a mistake and made it FF.
It spins it front tyres like an ff round chicanes, so maybe they did it right!?

 

[Aloha62_2]

I dont think GT5 can model the mclarens non-conventional traction control, LSD and anti-roll systems properly, the car drives as if it simply isnt fitted with anything to keep its tyres attached to the ground.

It is very odd that a car which is hailed by everyone as having the grip of the gods handles so badly in game but as it isnt a japanese car poor performance is to be expected.

 

[Nikked]

Tire Width. Because we can't change it in game, many of the older cars can't compete. There are some new cars (I remember the S15 being talked about not to long ago) that has this same issue. Some call it Skinny Tire Syndrome. Racing a car that suffers from S.T.S. is like being in an egg toss with a blind partner.

So true! It seems like a bit of a miss judgment... being able to more then double HP out put but have skinny tires is silly

 

[OK8]

The NSX-R is a tough competitor but I think the M3 CSL and ruf RGT are equal if not faster. The 500PP scene is dominated by these three cars.

Everyone knows the Yellowbird is an unbelievably loose car, but luckily it always has straight line advantage. On Nordschleife you can win races if you get a good start and manage to hold everyone back in the corners (a not very honorable way to win I must say) but if someone gets past you it's almost impossible to attempt an overtake in a corner. On the straight you'll always reel them in and on the backstraight people can draft on you all the way but you'll still pull away, I love it.

With this straight line advantage it would be great if you could tune the car to handle just a tiny bit better and at high speed corners it could use a spoiler but all my birds are stock I like it as it is.

 

[kilttraeger]

The NSX-R is a tough competitor but I think the M3 CSL and ruf RGT are equal if not faster. The 500PP scene is dominated by these three cars.

Agree. I am getting quite tired lately of guys pretending the NSX-R is overpowered. Interestingly those guys never seem to dominate when they are using the NSX.

In addition to the cars you mentioned, one could also throw in the M3'04, RX7, RX8, Evora, Elise... the list is quite long.

IMHO, there is a huge variety of cars to use between 400 and 550 PP (which I mostly race in).

 

[phil_75]

I have a secret car at 500pp which beats everything, over 1 sec faster a lap at Spa and its not a prototype or race car!

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Tire Width. Because we can't change it in game, many of the older cars can't compete. There are some new cars (I remember the S15 being talked about not to long ago) that has this same issue. Some call it Skinny Tire Syndrome. Racing a car that suffers from S.T.S. is like being in an egg toss with a blind partner.

The E-Type suffers from STS. Which is a shame. That is such a beautiful car. I have had more luck with the 240Z, which is modeled after the E-Type, so I do get to drive something nearly as beautiful.

The NSX-R is a tough competitor but I think the M3 CSL and ruf RGT are equal if not faster. The 500PP scene is dominated by these three cars.

I would point out the the NSX has a better showing at a lower PP range than the M3 or RGT. When getting up into higher ranges, I also think the RGT isn't as easy to handle as the NSX. I haven't really driven BMWs, so I don't know how fast the M3 can be.

Agree. I am getting quite tired lately of guys pretending the NSX-R is overpowered. Interestingly those guys never seem to dominate when they are using the NSX.

In addition to the cars you mentioned, one could also throw in the M3'04, RX7, RX8, Evora, Elise... the list is quite long.

IMHO, there is a huge variety of cars to use between 400 and 550 PP (which I mostly race in).

In the 450 Club, I've been sticking to the RX-8. Others avoid it because they do consider it something of a cheater car. Which is good. I'm such a slow driver that I can keep up with the pack in the RX-8. So I do think it has an advantage over other cars at the 450 PP point.

I think the NSX has an advantage, too, as does the Loti. The problem is, they are mid-engined and are a bit harder to drive. If you can handle that correctly, then the NSX is a cheater car. If not, then it is just average.

I agree, the PP system isn't perfect. I don't know why they stopped considering tires or non-adjustable body kits (unless those truly don't do anything in the game, in which case shame on PD). But I don't know how it would take into account features such as a cars balance and cornering ability, which is why these cars are considered cheater cars.

 

[shirakawaa]

Light cars in general are disadvantaged with the PP system against heavier, but more powerful cars. One of the reasons for this might be that fuel weight (and perhaps driver weight too) isn't taken into account in PP rating alculations.

 

[Custer85]

Agree. I am getting quite tired lately of guys pretending the NSX-R is overpowered. Interestingly those guys never seem to dominate when they are using the NSX.

In addition to the cars you mentioned, one could also throw in the M3'04, RX7, RX8, Evora, Elise... the list is quite long.

IMHO, there is a huge variety of cars to use between 400 and 550 PP (which I mostly race in).

+1:tup:

Iam mostly racing at 450pp (Comfort softs and sports hard) and 500pp (Sports hard and soft) and i got many cars in my garage that can compete. The NSX Type R is a good car, but its not far superior to the other cars in its class.

My favourites for 450pp:
Spoon S2000
Audi S3 (both versions)
Alfa Romeo Spider V6
BMW 330i

My favourites for 500pp
RUF Yellowbird
AMG E55 2002
Spoon S2000
Honda NSX Type S Zero
Subaru Impreza WRX 22B-STi Coupe
BMW M3 CSL

But the list is very long actually. I got nearly 40 cars for 450pp and 30 for 500pp and i drive most of them regulary. I was able to win races with most of them, but those mentioned above are the ones I tend to drive more often.

 

[PhillGuy]

I don't think I understand the the OP, but...

the MP4-12C's real world handling is probably due in large part to its very advanced traction control system. Most drivers in GT turn that off as a matter of pride. Not sure if they should, but... there you go.

The NSX has always been a very good handling car (if you can handle an MR). It is very low, with a wide stance and great weight distribution.

The R35, again, has fantastic onboard computers controlling its all-wheel-drive system to give the driver unmatched control.

As to the NSX and R35, what can we say. Someone did a fantastic job creating those cars, and they provide fantastic performance for their price point.

But if drives turns the traction control systems off then the R35 should have no more advantage then the MP4-12C. Seems like faulty logic.

Also I am not sure how well or even if fancy traction control systems are even simulated in this game. I think they just give these cars more grip.

The NSX is bleedin' quick though but not so much to be unfair.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

But if drives turns the traction control systems off then the R35 should have no more advantage then the MP4-12C. Seems like faulty logic.

Also I am not sure how well or even if fancy traction control systems are even simulated in this game. I think they just give these cars more grip.

The NSX is bleedin' quick though but not so much to be unfair.

Yes, in theory, if we turn them off in the game, then the R35 should just be an understeering AWD and the MP4 should be (and is a bit) twitchy.

But, in the real world, I don't know that you can completely turn these off (like you can in a Ferrari). Part of the R35's magic is not just a traction control but clever differentials.

I don't know about the MP4. I have heard that you can never completely turn off the traction control on a real Mercedes. I don't know if the MP4 is like that at all.

 

[novcze]

Tire Width. Because we can't change it in game, many of the older cars can't compete. There are some new cars (I remember the S15 being talked about not to long ago) that has this same issue. Some call it Skinny Tire Syndrome. Racing a car that suffers from S.T.S. is like being in an egg toss with a blind partner.

Yep, the McLaren MP4-12C looks like same case or maybe it has some weird glitch with weight on axles. Under acceleration front feels like in the air and under brakes the car has very long braking distance.
Can be somehow tuned with soft front, hard rear (with 156Kg ballast on front, that makes 50-50 weight balance) and most of brake force on rear axle, but handling in the GT5 is really weird, no doubt about it.
Another thing I discovered about McLaren MP4-12C is rate in which oil degrade, few laps on Nurb and oil is ready to change. I have tuned for 600PP so I noticed change in BHP after every lap.

 

[MoLiEG]

Chaparral 2J will destroy anything that doesn't have a PP level at least 40 points higher.

50-60 if a High-RPM turbo is installed.

That's why I hate it

1st post of the year!

 

[analog]

the MP4-12C's real world handling is probably due in large part to its very advanced traction control system. Most drivers in GT turn that off as a matter of pride. Not sure if they should, but... there you go.

You're probably right about the MP4-12C's advanced traction control playing a huge role in real life, thing is, I don't think it's replicated at all with the ingame traction control system which (although I might be wrong) seems to be a more generic option or system applied to every single car in the same way (just like automatic gearchanges don't replicate a real automatic gearbox for cars which have an auto).

 

[seanneedscar]

Definitely agree the nsx-r has a grip advantage

that thing keeps up with race cars. its bs

 

[crowhop]

I always test the PP system when doing the Seasonal Time Trial events.
I tuned up an Autozam to 400PP and could not even get to the Gold time.
I then tuned a Mazda Roadster to 400PP and got as low as the high 46 second range.
In theory, every 400PP car in the game should be identically capable.

 

[D00msday]

Shall we make a community-made list of what's handicapped/advantaged?

 

[Peter.]

I always test the PP system when doing the Seasonal Time Trial events.
I tuned up an Autozam to 400PP and could not even get to the Gold time.
I then tuned a Mazda Roadster to 400PP and got as low as the high 46 second range.
In theory, every 400PP car in the game should be identically capable.

No, the PP is an odd calculation of Power/Weight Ratio, as well as Aerodynamic Capability of the cars. The cars will not have identical performances with the same PP, because every car won't handle the same, and because of track characteristics. If I take a car that weighs 400kg, but has 200hp, and put it against a car with 400hp, but weighing in at 800kg, the P/W Ratio is the same. and you can assume the PP will be almost identical as well, the 400hp one will win at a track like Monza, but somewhere like Autumn Ring, the 200hp one will be able to get ahead. It doesn't necessarily work that way anyway, because each car has their different grip levels depending on the tyre width, weight distribution, etc.

Same PP does not equal same results.

 

[Tornado]

In theory, every 400PP car in the game should be identically capable.

PP does not take transmission, suspension or LSD settings into account because it is impossible to do so. And as Peter said above, certain tracks favor certain performance characteristics over other ones.

 

[TheBlueHusky]

Any premium Impreza after heavy tuning has unbelievable grip

 

[crowhop]

No, the PP is an odd calculation of Power/Weight Ratio, as well as Aerodynamic Capability of the cars. The cars will not have identical performances with the same PP, because every car won't handle the same, and because of track characteristics. If I take a car that weighs 400kg, but has 200hp, and put it against a car with 400hp, but weighing in at 800kg, the P/W Ratio is the same. and you can assume the PP will be almost identical as well, the 400hp one will win at a track like Monza, but somewhere like Autumn Ring, the 200hp one will be able to get ahead. It doesn't necessarily work that way anyway, because each car has their different grip levels depending on the tyre width, weight distribution, etc.

Same PP does not equal same results.

This is how I think it should work...not how it does work:
Performance Points should correspond with the performance capabilities of the cars with Stock Suspension. If a car is capable of more performance, it should have higher point values. I think it should be that simple.

 

[dadn]

I dont think GT5 can model the mclarens non-conventional traction control, LSD and anti-roll systems properly, the car drives as if it simply isnt fitted with anything to keep its tyres attached to the ground.

It is very odd that a car which is hailed by everyone as having the grip of the gods handles so badly in game but as it isnt a japanese car poor performance is to be expected.

For me the MP4 is modelled realisticly. The traction is only limited by the tires and in game and real life its comparable to most top sports car 458, gt-r, lfa etc... and this can be seen in lap times by magazines. The problem is also which tires are used, as on the MP4 there's the optional P Zero Corsa tires for track use and they dont often state which are equipped, while other competitor cars are on street radial tires.

Some magazines use the Corsa, some the standard. But if you ask me, using the Corsa for the comparison is flawed. Their a semi-slick and you'd get acquaplaning in the rain.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/ferrari_458_italia-vs-mclaren_mp4-12c.html

Very comparable, but the wet results show you the difference and probably what tires theyd equipped.

 

[C-ZETA]

The Caterham I think is below what pp it's listed as.

That and then a lot more.

The Caterham is the highest level of examples for flaws with the PP system. The Ginetta G4 is another, though that is fast

That's why I hate it

In the same way I suppose I have all hated the Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo, Mercedes CLK-GTR and Mine's Skyline N1 '00 at some point Though in GT4 the Touj was a damn annoyance all round in the Amercan Championship...except I can beat it in this game with a NASCAR. And like the CLK-LM, I've rather befriended it - it isn't great to drive but it is fast. More so with a B-Spec driver at the helm...