Help a dissapointed noob...please

[vrooom]

The only game I've played that simulates drifting properly is LFS.

While I haven't extensively played LFS, the little I had I found it's physics to be very realistic, rewarding and with very nice feedback. I also remember a few year ago it was maybe the only PC-sim with an advanced tire model that was calculating tire deformation!

So I wouldn't be susprised if LFS offers the most realistic drifting simulation! 👍

 

[Zer0]

Furthermore GT4 was a very bad simulation even on it's day! And now it's laughable at best!

And since you seem to like to dig ancient, low-quality youtube videos these may interest you:

Oh look, according to GT5 Prologue, ABS is not needed!!

Many GT4 flaws exposed...

...yet there were other PS2 games that seemed to achieve much better results.

As a whole your GT4 video may look realistic to the untrained eye, but once you get to drive on GT4 you will understand that is all smoke and mirrors to generate nice replays! GT4 is a simulation joke! Thankfully GT5 is much improved, it's the only GT game I consider to be a sim, it has corrected many handling flaws from the old versions (they say that Enthusia's physics programmer is working on GT5), but it's far from perfect and is much worse physics-wise than PC sims and (in my opinion) Shift 2 (I don't know about Forza, haven't tried it).

wow... I hit a nerve.

Never said that GT games had no flaws. You can search for all of them and try to convince yourself that they are not sims or play the games how they meant to be played and compare the results with the real thing.

I think you have a different idea of a simulator than me. My idea of a sim is more related to the realism with the driving inputs(vid) and what Clarkson writed in his article about the cars handling authenticity. Also is the authenticity in RL times and track recreations, things that go hand by hand with the above.
http://forums.finalgear.com/gran-turismo/jeremy-clarksons-review-of-gran-turismo-4-a-14351/

I will never deny the nature simulation of a game and its virtues only because another sim or not sim minded game do a few thing better. All this talk has remembered me of the old discussions with people claiming that PGR games were more realistic than GT because they thought that their physics were more "complex".

Do you played GT5 Prologue? steering with with abs off and the wheels locked is almost impossible. More than you could think showing that vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r18asYISVRM#t=6m45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r18asYISVRM#t=8m11s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r18asYISVRM#t=8m49s

The drifting in GT5 can be fun but it's not very realistic in many ways,

Read this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=199030

 

[eight6er]

Read this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=199030

I did read it and if I drove my real drift car like I do in GT5 it would end up spinning out all the time or crashing. Basically you can make GT5 do most drifting but not using the same inputs as real life, it's sometimes only small things but it's still not right.

@vroom LFS is the sim by which I judge all others, until I find something better, best value game I ever bought

 

[vrooom]

@Zer0

The funny thing is that I admit that GT5 is a simulator even though I don't prefer it.
That PD for once decided to make the 'real driving simulator' slogan have a slight amount of truth...
Yet here you are trying to prove that GT4 is a simulator...
just because the wheel is moving similar to real car and because Nordschleife is nicely modelled?..
Did I commit a sin for questioning the physics of an old GT game?

Go tell to iRacing, LFS, rFactor, RBR, nKPro devs and users that trying to simulate the forces applied to a car, simulating tire behavior, etc is not important and instead someone's idea of how a car should drive and replicating real lap times (wth does that mean? there are different real drivers, different virtual drivers, gamepads and wheels, different track conditions, how can you possibly know which is the correct lap time?) is the important thing for a sim! Or just because someone tested GT4 with a gamepad and then tells us "this is so real" it must be true...

I haven't tested PGR because I think it doesn't work with a wheel and I never play a driving game without a wheel. But I wouldn't be surprised if it actually had better physics than GT4. I can't think of many driving games (with proper wheel support) that have worse physics than GT4.

 

[HeadsoupBob]

@Zer0
Did I commit a sin for questioning the physics of an old GT game?

I wouldn't waste your time vrooom, I have not seen one single forum member that thinks GT5 physics > all else ever change their mind. It's like there's some inbuilt ego that comes with the game and must defended at all costs

People see what they want to see, whether it proves they are wrong or not.

Yes Shift 2 has a few issues with some of the cars FFB (Stock Radical/427 cobra) where that 'swaying' seems to be there, and is a little bit generous with grip, but for the most part it's extremely good and enjoyable and I feel very rewarded after running a clean and fast lap on the limits. GT5 seems more like a mechanical chore for me now, i.e. x throttle/brake amount plus y steering at z time creates perfect line through corner, adjust values slightly for next lap and 0.1sec improvement. I just don't feel the body roll or suspension and tyre subtleties that can catch you out and make driving on the edge a nervous experience!

I have the PC version btw, so with the dinput8.dll I don't have the steering lag the PS3/xBox users are experiencing, and hopefully once that is patched people will really start appreciating how good the driving model is

 

[vrooom]

GT5 seems more like a mechanical chore for me now, i.e. x throttle/brake amount plus y steering at z time creates perfect line through corner, adjust values slightly for next lap and 0.1sec improvement. I just don't feel the body roll or suspension and tyre subtleties that can catch you out and make driving on the edge a nervous experience!

You absolutely nailed it! 👍
That's my biggest gripe with GT5's handling!
It's too predictable, too precise, too deterministic, too calm!
I just don't feel that I need to make micro-corrections or that I have to test the limits of grip and push harder. I almost feel that if I brake correctly the car almost turns by itself, like the game is optimizing my steering inputs continuously and correcting my mistakes so that I can push as hard as I want with minimum fuzz and without the risk of spinning or crashing!

 

[Zer0]

@Zer0

The funny thing is that I admit that GT5 is a simulator even though I don't prefer it.
That PD for once decided to make the 'real driving simulator' slogan have a slight amount of truth...
Yet here you are trying to prove that GT4 is a simulator...
just because the wheel is moving similar to real car and because Nordschleife is nicely modelled?..
Did I commit a sin for questioning the physics of an old GT game?

Go tell to iRacing, LFS, rFactor, RBR, nKPro devs and users that trying to simulate the forces applied to a car, simulating tire behavior, etc is not important and instead someone's idea of how a car should drive and replicating real lap times (wth does that mean? there are different real drivers, different virtual drivers, gamepads and wheels, different track conditions, how can you possibly know which is the correct lap time?) is the important thing for a sim! Or just because someone tested GT4 with a gamepad and then tells us "this is so real" it must be true...

I was talking about your comments of previous GT not being simulators and just marketing and false advertising. That's because I thought that we have different views of what a sim is supposed to deliver.

At the time of GT1 that slogan was meant to define a novelty game idea that no one made before. Simulating everyday road cars driving with accurate performance and tuning. Remember that in 1997 there was nothing close to that concept.
http://books.google.es/books?id=3wk1vpzya6IC&lpg=PP8&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false

Like it or not GT4 is a driving sim, maybe not what you look for in a sim(a complex object physical simulation) but what most people wanted in a driving simulator(a realistic driving recreation). All the flaws aside, with all aids off, comfort tyres and a wheel was a blast. I have a feel that you never played a GT before with a sim config in mind except for GT5.

just because the game recreates the specific car handling of the YellowBird, have similar corrections in the same track spots, have similar gear changes timing/reeving/speed, the wheel inputs are matched and the lap times are accurate I call it a simulator. I would love to see something similar to that vid with Shift 2.

No more sin than the people questioning the Shift 2 realism because resembles nothing to driving a real car.

The correct lap time is the one that you can compare to the real thing and see that all inputs/speed/lines/reactions match. I don't know what is so difficult in finding a record lap in RL, get the same car in GT, mount similar grip tyres, aids off, try a perfect lap and compare.