Help! My Falcon XR8 is trying to kill me!

[Bulldozer]

The damn thing's possessed, I swear! It drives itself into walls for NO REASON. It's not my fault - I didn't do anything wrong, honest.

OK, here's what's actually happens. I was enter the Tickford in the Amateur European Championship. Overkill I know, but I just wanted to practice on the courses and make some money. But I can't drive this car. On Special Stage 5, I spin out every time I exit a slow speed turn. Well, not spin out, exactly. It's more like oversteer, except that I'm going so slow. And once I've started over-rotating, I can't get it to stop. Counter-steer does nothing, letting off the gas does nothing. Hitting the brakes makes it much worse. It like the car stops responding to controls and just drives into the wall, nose first. (Hence the thread title.)

I'm being extra-careful to apply the gas slowly as I exit the turns and this should keep my rear end from getting loose. It works on every other car in the game. I tried a few different setups that I found on GTvault, but the bad behavior seems a little extreme to fix with the setups.

So does anyone else have problems with this car? It seems strange that this one car gives me so much more trouble than any other.

If it's the way I drive, what am I doing wrong?

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Try raising the rear downforce, and increasing the LSD's strength. Also make the rear ride height lower than the front ride height. You could also raise the front camber angles a few degrees. Also put the brake balance to have stronger front brakes. That should help.

 

[Bulldozer]

Thanks, I'll try that. Though I don't think rear downforce will help much, since these are very slow speed turns. But it won't hurt.

When you say increase the LSD, do you mean acceleration side, or initial?

 

[TuneRVisioN]

All of it, since you are having such a big problem, that car was hard for me to tame too... Put it at like 40/40/30.

 

[Duke]

I disagree on the LSD.

The Falcon is a big old burly nose-heavy V8 sedan in racing trim. Part of the problem is it has enough torque to pull your house off the foundation and so throttle control is paramount. Upping the LSD effect is just going to let you light up the tires that much more easily.

Keep the deaccel value fairly high for braking stability, but don't let it cause entry understeer. Then set the initial effect value higher, which raises the point at which the LSd really kicks in. This should help you keep one tire planted until the car gets a little momentum up. Keep the accel value fairly low to allow the car to rotate under throttle without powersliding the back end around.

One other thing you may want to try is keeping the rear rebound level fairly low to let the weight squat over the back axle under accelertation.

 

[TuneRVisioN]

That isn't upping the acceleration LSD, that's keeping it the same. It is at 40 stock.

Mod, you got PWNED. lol jk

 

[breakpoint]

I have never had a problem like that with this car. If anything ive always had the thing stick to the road like glue.

 

[Duke]

I like it, but it takes a gentle foot. My main problem with it is that it absolutely shreds the front tires when tire wear is activated.

 

[Bulldozer]

I have never had a problem like that with this car. If anything ive always had the thing stick to the road like glue.

i hate you.


JK. Thanks for the ideas, everybody.

I was thinking about this. Maybe I'm doing too much trail braking and it breaks loose early in the corner. I just don't notice it 'cause the car happens to be sliding in the same direction I'm steering. Then when I try to straighten out - nothing happens and I crash through the fence running over spectators again.

But I still think the thing's possessed. I switched to the Corvette C5R, similar hp, but it behaves much better (for me). If I give it too much gas and the rear end starts to slide, I just left of the gas, or countersteer, and it straightens out pretty nicely.

BTW, if anyone is curious, I think this is the setup I was using: http://gtvault.com/gt3/setup-view/s_sid::2390/Tickford-Falcon-XR8-Race-Car/
I just backed off a little on camber and toe settings:
Springs 11.9 / 10.7
Ride Ht 85/85
Shock Bound 4/4
Shock Rebound 8/8 ( <--- As Duke suggests, I might change it to 8/6 next time)
Camber angle 2.1/1.0
stabilizer 3/3
brake balance 9/10
downforce 1.00/.96
Toe Angle -0.5/0.5
LSD 20/60/40 ( <--- Might change this to 20/60/25 next time, thanks again Duke)

 

[breakpoint]

i hate you.



BTW, if anyone is curious, I think this is the setup I was using: http://gtvault.com/gt3/setup-view/s_sid::2390/Tickford-Falcon-XR8-Race-Car/
I just backed off a little on camber and toe settings:
Springs 11.9 / 10.7
Ride Ht 85/85
Shock Bound 4/4
Shock Rebound 8/8 ( <--- As Duke suggests, I might change it to 8/6 next time)
Camber angle 2.1/1.0
stabilizer 3/3
brake balance 9/10
downforce 1.00/.96
Toe Angle -0.5/0.5
LSD 20/60/40 ( <--- Might change this to 20/60/25 next time, thanks again Duke)

Haha, ok that was just funny.
Now about the settings. Give it a go with the shock bound at 5\5 and rebound also at 5\5, and try camber angle with a 2.5 front 1.6 rear, also toe angle set it back to 0.0 on both, oh and the stabilizer's goto 2 front 4 rear. Everything else listed should stay the same. See how that works out for you. On some cars ive had to lower the lsd to almost nothing too, and sometimes some models actually respond better without even having an aftermarket lsd on them whatsoever. So if nothing else, then try using a stock one and see how that works out.

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Only if GT4 had realistic physics with oversteer... But just curious, how is your XR8? Is it handling a little better? Also maybe 4.0 camber front and 0.0 camber rear might help.

 

[Bulldozer]

Haha, ok that was just funny.
Now about the settings. Give it a go with the shock bound at 5\5 and rebound also at 5\5, and try camber angle with a 2.5 front 1.6 rear, also toe angle set it back to 0.0 on both, oh and the stabilizer's goto 2 front 4 rear. Everything else listed should stay the same. See how that works out for you. On some cars ive had to lower the lsd to almost nothing too, and sometimes some models actually respond better without even having an aftermarket lsd on them whatsoever. So if nothing else, then try using a stock one and see how that works out.

Man you're a genius! 👍 It's actually acting like a car now! I did a practice lap at Laguna just one second slower than the C5R.

I still managed to spin out when I stomped hard on the gas in 2nd gear, but then, what FR car wouldn't? Before it would have spun out at 25% throttle. What's even more impressive is that now I can actually recover when the rear end starts to slide. With the old settings, once it was gone, it was gone.

And I haven't tried it with the stock LSD, yet. I'm curious to see how it's different.

This might be a good car for me to practice in. When I'm driving badly, it lets me know.

Thanks breakpoint. I'd +rep you, but I already did in another thread, so it'll have to wait.

 

[breakpoint]

Man you're a genius! 👍 It's actually acting like a car now! I did a practice lap at Laguna just one second slower than the C5R.

I still managed to spin out when I stomped hard on the gas in 2nd gear, but then, what FR car wouldn't? Before it would have spun out at 25% throttle. What's even more impressive is that now I can actually recover when the rear end starts to slide. With the old settings, once it was gone, it was gone.

And I haven't tried it with the stock LSD, yet. I'm curious to see how it's different.

This might be a good car for me to practice in. When I'm driving badly, it lets me know.

Thanks breakpoint. I'd +rep you, but I already did in another thread, so it'll have to wait.

Great im glad it worked out for you. No problem, thats why we have a forum My rule of thumb is to never play with the toe settings unless its a last resort, its an easy way to screw your handling up completely! As far as the LSD goes if you have a stock one its pretty much open or slightly one legged. With the aftermarket ones it breaks the rear end loose much easier, thus making the car want to drift unless you have a very light foor or it tuned down allot. Like in my Malibu i welded my spider gears up because i had it on the strip a good bit and i wanted more traction getting down, but on the street (especially in the rain) it was a beast to drive with 455hp to the wheels. All it wanted to do was step out. I think the major thing that helped you was the stiffer stabalizer in the rear and setting the toe settings back to zero. And also i wouldn't set my camber to zero in the rear on a car that is already wanting to be a drift car, having it around 1.0-1.8 in the rear will help keep that rear end from stepping out easier:tup:
I have a base tune that i use for all of my RWD's as i do with every other type that i start from then tweak from that. It has never done anything but help me out. If you want the "base" settings i start from (which most of the time work great and i don't have to mess with the settings anymore) then just PM me and i will copy all of them down and send them to you.

 

[Duke]

Only if GT4 had realistic physics with oversteer... But just curious, how is your XR8? Is it handling a little better? Also maybe 4.0 camber front and 0.0 camber rear might help.

0.0 Camber at the rear should not help - it should make it more preone to oversteer, just slightly balanced out by the excessive front camber.

I'd try about 3.0/1.0. And yeah, the toe out in back was definitely hurting the Falcon.

 

[TuneRVisioN]

I thought camber reduced the grip on the selected tires, I guess I'm wrong.

 

[Duke]

As you increase camber from zero, it increases cornering grip up to a point - usually maxing around 3 degrees in most cars, up to 4 in some with wonky suspension geometry. After that point, it begins decreasing again.

That's true about all suspension settings - more is better up to a ccertain point, then it gets worse again.

 

[Bulldozer]

Well, it turns out that I can't try a stock differential since this is one of them fancy-schmancy race cars that comes with all the goodies pre-installed. And you can't buy 'downgrade' parts for those. So I was looking over Schaff's tuning guide to try and figure out what settings would be closest to a stock differential. And it seems to me that minimizing all the settings is NOT the way to go. That would be more like simulating a lack of a differential. I'm thinking that the default settings (initial 10 / accel 40 /decel 20) would be best.

In fact, now that I understand what the initial torque setting is for, I'm surprised the default setting is so low.

Oh and when I was posting my settings I had some LSD numbers mixed up. Just thought I'd acknowledge that in case Duke was thinking "I didn't tell him to do that!"

 

[breakpoint]

As you increase camber from zero, it increases cornering grip up to a point - usually maxing around 3 degrees in most cars, up to 4 in some with wonky suspension geometry. After that point, it begins decreasing again.

That's true about all suspension settings - more is better up to a ccertain point, then it gets worse again.

Too bad there isn't caster adjustments in GT, 💡 Forza has it!

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I'll reiterate: toe is bad (on pavement) rarely will I use toe on a paved track. Now in rallies..that's a different story. I've used mixed and matched front and rear toe (especially at Tahiti Maze and Swiss Alps) to some extremes to get my car going sideways (and maintaining it) as smooth as possible.

I'll also reiterate about toe--in some American muscle cars I've bumped front camber up to 6 degrees! But then I'll leave the rear camber between 1 and 1.5.

 

[FinaL ExaM]

if you would like, i can fire up gt3 tonight and get you a good setup on the car. most gtvault setups are crap and i've always gotten much more out of the car with my own original setups.

all i ask is that you give me something to test against. let me know the track you are testing on and the times you are running on it. it would also help to know the setup you're currently using so i can compare it to mine.

it's been years since i fired up GT3 but i imagine it's just like driving a bike. all that stuff is burned into my mind forever.

 

[Bulldozer]

Final Exam, thanks for the offer, I'll take you up on it. You kind of renewed my interest in getting better with this car. So I thought I'd practice some and then use it in the Rome Endurance race. (Because it seems like one of the easier Endurance races, and I like Rome.)

But I'm used to low-powered cars and I think I've developed some bad habits that I need to break. Like way too much trail-braking and stomping on the gas too hard too soon. And the heavy Falcon, with 812 hp, doesn't like those habits.

Anyway, to practice for the endurance race, I've been doing some easy amateur races on the Rome circuit with super slick tires. My lap times are usually 2:17 or 2:18 and very inconsistent. My best was 2:14.xxx, I only hit that once, but I know it's possible, so I have that to shoot for.

And I've been playing with the setup a little. (Breakpoint, Duke, if I've screwed up, please let me know, OK?) I was thinking I'd reduce the aerodynamics temporarily, and concentrate on tweaking the suspension first. I'll probably increase it again later. Also, compared to most setups my ride height was pretty high. I thought lowering it might help cornering overall, but too low would make it too stiff and that's not good for traction either. (tradeoffs, eh?) Besides, Rome has some rough spots and a lot of rumble strips. Finally, I backed off a lot on the LSD, in case it was causing the back end to kick out.

Here's how I have it at the moment:

Spring rate  13.4 / 11.6
Ride height   81  /  77
bound          5  /   5
rebound        5  /   5
camber       3.3  / 1.3
toe            0  /   0
stabilizer     2  /   4
brake bal.    10  /  10
LSD           10/30/15
downforce    .76 /  .91

Do you think I should lower it more?
If I do, will I need to stiffen the dampers?
Should I keep the ride height the same front and rear, or keep the rear lower to get a little more weight back there?

 

[Bulldozer]

Just wanted to add, I finished the endurance. Got the Zonda Race Car and I'm too tired to even bother trying it out. Best lap was 1:25.629 but I had a lot of crappy 1:27's and 1:28's. I got sloppy (sloppier) as I got tired.

Funny thing I noticed. When the front tires were yellow and the rear tires were still green, I never had a problem with the oversteer. Well, I guess that's not too funny, since there was more grip in the rear. But I didn't notice any understeer or overall lack of grip. It actually seemed to turn better with yellow/green tires than with green/green. Maybe I should always run T2/T3 or T3/T4 tire combos. Or I could even out the ride heights but stiffen the front more.

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Yeah also ride height can change the weight distribution to the front and rear. Set the front lower than the rear for more oversteer, and the front higher than the rear for understeer.

 

[racerfink]

Here's how I have it at the moment:

Spring rate  13.4 / 11.6
Ride height   81  /  77
bound          5  /   5
rebound        5  /   5
camber       3.3  / 1.3
toe            0  /   0
stabilizer     2  /   4
brake bal.    10  /  10
LSD           10/30/15
downforce    .76 /  .91

You have a lot of stuff fighting each other in that set-up. Your ride height is a big factor as to why you are losing your front tires faster than the rear, even with over 800hp. When you get on the gas, you already have a lot of weight over the rear wheels, and weight transfer when accelerating is just putting more on the rear. I'd raise the rear to 3 over the front.

With the bound, that's not bad, but the rebound being so low is hurting your turn in as well. I'd run at least 9 front and rear. If you want the rear to be a bit more loose, lower the rear rebound 1 click.

It seems to me that the softer you have the car set-up, the less camber you need. 3.3 might be a bit excessive for those spring settings. But it does help turn in.

I'm guessing you had to set the bars like that to try and get the back around for the turns. With these other settings, you can go back to more traditional numbers, like 5/4 f/r.

You'll also get a lot of push with LSD settings like those. On high powered cars with slicks, I run it like a "Lincoln Locker". That is, a welded diff. 100% accel and decel. I ran it on my ITC Toyota years ago, and I like it better than the Viscous Limited Slip on my Spec Miata now, even though they are both low-powered cars on DOT race tires. Set the rest of the car right, and you can steer the car with the throttle in the middle of turns.

If you aren't running Stability Control, I can see how the back end would be loose with those brake settings. Try backing the rear down to 8 or maybe even 7 if it's still loose under braking. If you keep backing down the rear brake bias and it still spins out, the front springs are too soft. Bump both front and rear accordingly.

 

[Bulldozer]

Thanks for the input and feedback, racerfink.

This setup started out with something from GTvault, I picked one that didn't have an extremely low ride height. But instead I ended up with an extremely high one, with a few other weird settings thrown in. Breakpoint made some suggestions that mostly fixed my biggest problem - uncontrollable oversteer coming out of tight corners. But I'm the one who dropped the rear end lower than the front - they were equal before. I guess I ought to make them equal again, and try gradually lower heights.


I'm not sure about the stabilizers. Maybe that suggestion was to help prevent excessive roll in the rear with the soft rear springs. But I don't need any more oversteer, thanks.

Good point about brake balance. And I'm not using any stability control.

Well, now I'm just confused about the LSD. I thought lower numbers meant less push - especially accel. I thought was kicking in too hard and knocking the back end loose as I came out of corners.

Thanks for all the ideas. It'll take me a while to try them all out, since I usually change just one thing at a time.

 

[breakpoint]

Lowering the spring rate slightly would help out, also lowering the car in general will also help. Just don't lower it all the way down or it will drive like crap and every bump you hit will make the rear end want to step out. Like anything on GT3 you don't want to max out the setting or pull it all the way to zero. Also you might want to pull the camber back a bit on the front, maybe around 2.4 and see how that works out. Allot of set-ups are personal preferance really. I like my cars to be allot harder on the spring side and on the shock\strut side. Not everyone likes this, but since i do allot of drifting in GT i can handle the cars better like this because i usually steer with my rear to a certain extent. So what you may see as too hard and spins out too easy i might see as a freaking delight and get better times with. So take in what everyone suggests and try different things to see what works best for you. You might also want to look at the GT3 book if you have it, it has allot of info about suspesion and all in it. Or if you don't google about real world racing suspension setups and go from there. Anyways the point is that nobody is right and nobody is wrong, we all have different styles so mix and match till you find what fits you best. When you get it nailed post the settings.

 

[Duke]

Yeah also ride height can change the weight distribution to the front and rear. Set the front lower than the rear for more oversteer, and the front higher than the rear for understeer.

Actually, I don't believe ride height affects static weight distribution in any real way. What it does affect is roll center, which in turn affects weight transfer in dynamic situations. I'm being technical and picky here, but it's a technical and picky subject.

racerfink, I'm not sure when you joined us here at GTP, but welcome aboard! It's always nice to have somebody with real world vehicle dynamics experience. Please join in as much as you can. That being said, I want to question one of your comments below:

It seems to me that the softer you have the car set-up, the less camber you need.

Are you talking GT3 or real life, here? From what I know (autocross experience, and hanging/crewing for a number of Neon racers from back in the day), it seems to me that softer setups would require more negative camber in order to counteract the chassis roll. Maybe it's just a suspension geometry difference in specific cars, but Neons want to run as much negative camber (in front) as will make it through the tech shed. Typical specs for a Neon would be -2.4 in front (maximum legal in SS) and anywhere from zero to -1.0 in back. Most of the guys I know (including a couple Chrysler chassis engineers who also race) say that the Neon just keeps handling better and better until you get to -3.0 to -3.5 in front... it's just illegal in most classes to run it that radical.

 

[Bulldozer]

Yeah, I'm learning that for any given problem (too much oversteer, f'rinstance), there are multiple solutions - and since everything is a tradeoff you pick the solution with the least bad side effects, or where you might have more margin to mess with. Or a slightly tweak a few different settings.

You think the camber was causing excess front tire wear? Since racerfink mentioned it it does seem weird that an FR car should eat front tires like that, especially since these settings should be shifting weight to the rear. That's something easy I can test.

I keep lowering the car by tiny amounts. It's now at 75/75. That's still relatively high (I think the min is 55). I'll keep going. And every time I drop the height I increase the spring rate to compensate, but maybe I've overdone it.

 

[Duke]

FWIW I don't think you are running a lot too much camber - try backing off to 2.7 or 2.8 in front.

Some cars - the Falcon being one of them, and even worse, the sainted C5R - just use up tires at one end or the other. In the case of these two cars it has a lot to do with the static weight distribution and the heavy V8 sitting up there. I never got my C5R to be usable because the front tires just would never last.

In fact I quite like the Falcon but I never got much chance to use it do to this very issue.

 

[Bulldozer]

Well, with front camber set way down to 2.0, it still wears out the front tires pretty quickly. I might as well go back to 3.0 or so.

Finally, I think I'm wasting time trying to tune this on super slick tires. The only reason for using T2's was because I was going to run that endurance race, and the car turned out to be overkill for that. (But the Zonda Race Car I won looks pretty sweet.)

Switching to T3's in front and T5's in back just makes everything so much nicer. I also gave up on the idea of tuning it with the downforce set very low. Bringing that back to medium helped a lot. Now the car has just a tiny bit of oversteer which could actually be useful for throttle steering. In fact if I do anything more, I might soften the front and see if I can improve initial turn-in.

Edit to Add: Not that I'm saying it's got bad understeer. I guess it's just harder to get heavier cars to turn. Momentum, eh?