Honda & McLaren 2014 Formula 1

[Liquid]

Hard to tell how the car is chassis and aero wise though...when it has the worst engine ever in the back...

It wasn't quite the worst engine on the grid that year but their 1994 Peugeot V10 was pretty bad. The chassis was good enough to enable them to challenge for points, mind, and this was in the days when points only went down to 6th.

 

[mustafur]

It wasn't quite the worst engine on the grid that year but their 1994 Peugeot V10 was pretty bad. The chassis was good enough to enable them to challenge for points, mind, and this was in the days when points only went down to 6th.

And when finishing means points.

 

[snowgt]

Couldn't they then homologate it in February for 2016? I mean, it's not like they are going to get much in the way of constructors money based on points, if any at all the way it's going now. Why not just throw away this year, go all out and change everything they want and be set for next year?

You can only use a power-unit (or a part thereof) after it's homologated. They have a couple of tokens left to use during 2015, so they can change parts of it during this year. They can't "go all out" this year, because the engine would be considered illegal and they wouldn't even be allowed to start. They can change about 50% of the engine until February 2016 with this year's and next year's tokens though. It's not like development stops unless you can put it on the car immediately.

The biggest problem I see is that there seems to be not just one problematic area with the engine. They apparently have cooling problems, they have not enough horsepower (which might partly be caused by the cooling), and their reliability is still abysmal. If you look at 2014, Ferrari and Renault had their own deficits to address, but their cars at least finished the races. The McLaren-Hondas hardly ever reach the finishing line. That is, if they can even run qualifying. I have been defending them for the first couple of races, because I really believed they would get it together a lot faster, but it's getting embarrassing now.

 

[[Nor]MclarenF1]

I think we all just have to turn our expectations for McLaren Honda 2015 waaay down and just look at this year as one long data collection and testing session. It's pretty clear the package won't be competitive this season, unless they get some miraculous breakthrough. At least Monaco showed that they do have a good balanced chassis, it's mainly a matter of getting all the different system to work in harmony.

From what I've understood from interviews with Ron, he does hint to there being quite a lot of new and experimental tech integrated into the Honda PU. Hopefully this is something that will pay off come 2016.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Speaking on Sky Sports before the British Grand Prix, Ron Dennis reckons that the aero data the team is getting is very good, that the chassis is among the most competitive on the grid, and that other teams are paying attention. The problem is the engine - they're still struggling with engine performance and reliability.

What I find most telling was a comment on Friday from one of the Mercedes engineers - that with twenty-five development tokens, Mercedes could effectively homologate a completely new engine. Honda might only have nine, but the challenge can be conquered.

 

[Speedracer8218]

http://www.f1today.net/en/news/203276/honda-promises-better-second-half-of-the-season

Arai is starting to sound like Kaz... "Soon, I promise"

 

[catamount39]

http://www.f1today.net/en/news/203276/honda-promises-better-second-half-of-the-season

Arai is starting to sound like Kaz... "Soon, I promise"

Mclaren are probably feeling like GT fans then.

 

[Speedracer8218]

But in all seriousness tho, if this article is accurate then I don't see this partnership going anywhere soon. Honda refusing technical assistance from McLaren (probably the reason for the slow development), McLaren asking Arai to step down, Arai stating the only people he answers to is his corporate bosses and Japanese media.

Unless some miracle happens where Honda is competitive in the next 12 months I don't see these 2 companies staying together for 5 years

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I don't know ... a lot of that article seems to be cobbled together from rumour and hearsay.

 

[Speedracer8218]

I don't know ... a lot of that article seems to be cobbled together from rumour and hearsay.

Yes I agree that the article has lots of rumors and hearsay but I think it does shine some light as to what is possibly going on behind doors... I refuse to believe McLaren and Honda are simply struggling because of technical issues, there has to be lots of internal disagreements between these two for this car to be under-performing as is

 

[Bo]

there has to be lots of internal disagreements between these two for this car to be under-performing as is

Not at all. Honda are struggling all round in motorsport currently, it's simply a case of being behind.

 

[Peasantslayer]

There's simply being behind then there's the state Mclaren are in, the car is too slow on its own and the Honda PU is the weakest, least reliable and least fuel efficient PU by a distance. The car isn't great at anything not even looking after its tyres even though it has no power and the drivers are constantly taking it steady to save fuel, with data only coming from 2 cars instead of 6-8 that must make it even more difficult to catch up.

 

[Speedracer8218]

Not at all. Honda are struggling all round in motorsport currently, it's simply a case of being behind.

I know they're struggling in Super GT but that's a brand new car. The LMP2 car that ran Le Mans and the Indy cars are HPD projects not Honda JP. Unless I'm forgetting what other races they're involved in I'm not sure what you're referring to as struggling overall

 

[Bo]

I know they're struggling in Super GT but that's a brand new car.

It's just as new as every other current JAFGT500 (and they got a slight development jump and have a hybrid advantage), and it's blocking out 12th to 15th on most occasions (bar Drago), and they're also behind with the CRZ. They are struggling in Super Formula, they can't launch well at all and are prone to failures, the are still struggling in WTCC, they are struggling in MotoGP, BSB, pretty much everything aside from BTCC.

 

[Speedracer8218]

The fact that they're struggling in MotoGP (which is their bread n butter) I guess it shows you have a point there 👍

 

[twitcher]

I was thinking the same thing about Honda not that long ago. F1 is a disaster. They're slowest in GT500, struggling in GT300. They're having a sub-par season in Super Formula. They're getting worked in WTCC (but so is everyone else I suppose). I don't really follow Indy, but the little bit of the 500 I payed attention to, it sounded as though Honda was down on power compared to Chevy.

I'm probably wrong, but 2015 seems like the worst year for Homda motorsports that I can remember

Even going back to the 2014 Suzuka 1000km, I remember the English commentators at Radio Lemans mentioning how Honda was struggling with the new NSX in GT500, and how their poor showing on their home track could have reprocusions within the organization.....I don't think they thought things would get drastically worse

Could it be the F1 effort which is detracting from all their other programs?

In my humble opinion, screw F1 >.<. Honda would be better served by building a GT3 spec NSX, stepping up all levels of their Civic programs (WTCC, etc), and then step into WEC in 2018-2020.

I'm so infuriatingly bored with F1, I seriously hope the series completely dies off (never happen, but I can dream)

Edit: just to add. I don't really follow BTCC because I can't find coverage (live in Canada), so not sure how they're doing there. Aside from that, the only Honda I can think of with remote success in 2015 is the Acura competing in PWC, and it's a top 10 threat, but not a consistent podium contender.

 

[Bo]

Honda would be better served by building a GT3 spec NSX

Nope. Big money burner for something that very few customers would actually go for, especially for a class that is closer to dying out than peaking. It's a good thing they cancelled it.

However, we will see a GT300 one next year...

stepping up all levels of their Civic programs (WTCC, etc)

The Civic simply isn't a very good TC1 car, the wheelbase is too short to be effective. The only other Civic is the NGTC one, which is consistent enough to be the best car on the grid.

I'm so infuriatingly bored with F1, I seriously hope the series completely dies off (never happen, but I can dream)

It shouldn't die off for good, because it's an important series with a lot of history, but if it wants to be taken seriously again by a lot of the motorsport community it will need to collapse and reinvent itself.

 

[twitcher]

Nope. Big money burner for something that very few customers would actually go for, especially for a class that is closer to dying out than peaking. It's a good thing they cancelled it.

However, we will see a GT300 one next year...

The Civic simply isn't a very good TC1 car, the wheelbase is too short to be effective. The only other Civic is the NGTC one, which is consistent enough to be the best car on the grid.

It shouldn't die off for good, because it's an important series with a lot of history, but if it wants to be taken seriously again by a lot of the motorsport community it will need to collapse and reinvent itself.

My comments are mostly tongue-in-cheek, fanboy based...so shouldn't be taken too seriously

Couple questions:

Are you saying GT3 racing around the world is dying off? I've always known about GT3, but only started really following WEC, BlancPain, PWC, etc. this year. Is it massively down compared to 5-10 years ago?

Also, you said "good thing they canceled it." Honda had an NSX GT3 program that they were working on? News to me...but like I said, I'm newb to all this.

 

[Bo]

Are you saying GT3 racing around the world is dying off? I've always known about GT3, but only started really following WEC, BlancPain, PWC, etc. this year. Is it massively down compared to 5-10 years ago?

No, it's expanded to insane rates, and is manufacturer and money driven. It's currently peaking, there will be a point in the next 5 years where it will naturally collapse and leave all heavy investers in a lot of trouble.

Honda had an NSX GT3 program that they were working on? News to me...but like I said, I'm newb to all this.

It was heavily rumoured, up to the point where this CRZ/HSV mule was spotted:

But DSC confirmed earlier this year that they have no intentions of building an NSX GT3. It makes financial sense.

 

[twitcher]

No, it's expanded to insane rates, and is manufacturer and money driven. It's currently peaking, there will be a point in the next 5 years where it will naturally collapse and leave all heavy investers in a lot of trouble.

It was heavily rumoured, up to the point where this CRZ/HSV mule was spotted:

View attachment 406678

But DSC confirmed earlier this year that they have no intentions of building an NSX GT3. It makes financial sense.

Hmm, that's an interesting point and take on the future of GT3. Personally, I think it will be around for a while, as there is something about top level racing, in cars which people can identify and potentially buy/drive/see, which is very appealing (the fact that they can race competitively in very close proximity is a big plus as well, IMO).

Like I said, I would love to see a GT3 NSX because it would be awesome to see it slugging it out with the massive variety in the current GT3 field. In all honesty, I don't care much for the business side of racing. I know it's necessary, but I like to ignore it

Anyways, thanks for the info and insight, much appreciated 👍

 

[DK]

I can't say an NSX GT3 would be likely because there's the big glaring issue that it's a hybrid, and that would require a completely new engine to take its place.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I can't say an NSX GT3 would be likely because there's the big glaring issue that it's a hybrid, and that would require a completely new engine to take its place.

But what would the problem be with that? Don't some people already run the 911 GT3 hybrid?

 

[Bo]

But what would the problem be with that? Don't some people already run the 911 GT3 hybrid?

There are no hybrid GT cars in competition apart from the NSX GT500.

 

[catamount39]

There are no hybrid GT cars in competition apart from the NSX GT500.

Why not just put in the Acura TSX motor from the PWC car? And also, the NSX runs as a hybrid in GT500? I thought it was using the same engine from the HSV?

 

[Bo]

And also, the NSX runs as a hybrid in GT500? I thought it was using the same engine from the HSV?

All GT500 engines are 2 litre I4s since 2014. Nobody really knows how Honda's system deploys, but it's likely that it engages in 6th gear near the rev limiter for some more top-end. At peak power it has about 750bhp.

 

[TenEightyOne]

There are no hybrid GT cars in competition apart from the NSX GT500.

My mistake, I'd thought that a) The GT3 had perpetutated and that b) It had run in the GT3 class rather than E1XP. D'oh, must try harder

 

[Tired Tyres]

I can't say an NSX GT3 would be likely because there's the big glaring issue that it's a hybrid, and that would require a completely new engine to take its place.

Irrelevant. It's GT3. They can do what they like, as long as it's rear wheel drive, call it a GT3 and that is that. The FIA will homologate it and then it would be BOPed.

 

[catamount39]

Irrelevant. It's GT3. They can do what they like, as long as it's rear wheel drive, call it a GT3 and that is that. The FIA will homologate it and then it would be BOPed.

As long as it's a Honda production based engine yes.

 

[Bo]

Irrelevant. It's GT3. They can do what they like, as long as it's rear wheel drive, call it a GT3 and that is that. The FIA will homologate it and then it would be BOPed.

This is so sad, but ultimately because it's true.

 

[[Nor]MclarenF1]

Enough GT3 talk.

FP1 of the Hungarian GP is done and dusted. No incidents for the McLarens, and no really visible change of pace compared to the rest of the field. Probably mostly data gathering laps, considering some new aero components at the back of the car.