How Challenging Do You Want GT5 to Be (Be Honest!)?

[JohnBM01]

Challenge makes games more interesting. Games can be challenging as long as they aren't obsessively challenging. So I want to know how challenging do you want GT5 to be.

NOTE: I personally like to ask that you be fair and honest about this issue. Don't come off with suggestions that you won't be able to accomplish. For example, if you say that you can bench press 350 and you only bench a pathetic 125, be fair. Don't come up with anything that you won't be able to accomplish even if you tried. Come up with something fair and respectable to your experience level and your level of talent. Don't talk about a challenge too tough for you to be frustrated with and end up breaking stuff in your room all because of a video game. So again... BE FAIR!

I'll offer my level of challenge in a future post, but here is a sample of what I think you all should express this issue:

---SAMPLE REPLY---
I prefer a challenge in Gran Turismo that is as close to hardcore racing, while not as unforgiving. I only have 1 gold price in GT4, and cleared only the B-License with all-silver honors. I'm not the best racer out there. So I would prefer the game be at my level while not abusing the level of challenge to where the game becomes too challenging to enjoy. Extremely challenging games don't equal enjoyment, and I won't enjoy my GT5 experience if I have to end up racing Nürburgring Nordschliefe 50 times just to clear the game. I'd want things to be as considerable as possible. I still want it to be enjoyable and fun for other gamers who are below/at/above my level.

-end of Sample Reply.

How challenging do you want GT5 to be? Think about yourself as well as other gamers like you. And please, BE HONEST!

 

[Jim Prower]

About as challenging as GT4, perhaps a little less.

 

[Dave A]

I personally would like it to be more challenging than GT4, but the best answer to this question would be, as challenging as I want. That's not a cop-out to not answer the question, but why not let the player select the difficulty of the GT mode.

 

[Dimitrov]

Personally I would like to face a dynamic difficulty.

If you are such a loser, game becomes easier
If you are such a medium player, game keeps its pace
If you are a winner, game starts to populate your races with, for example, a stronger field.

Also, there is too easy ways to earn money. "Ah. Run the X event 4 times and buy 70% of the cars available in game".

No.

I want things to take longer. No prize cars for Bronze or Silver tests.

Just make the game lasts longer.

 

[Dave A]

Hmm, yeah sort of have an automated difficulty based on win ratio, average position and number of attempts at each of say, the 10 most recent events, that would provide a pretty fare and frustration limiting flow of gameplay, it could lead to some playersnot beng able to get that elusive 1000% win ratio needed to beat the game 100% in the minimum number of day's, but then again, the players that attempt that are usually the more skillful of players so it might not. Either way, it's a small price to pay for a game with dynamic difficulty provided it works well.

 

[dylansan]

I've noticed that in some games, you can adjust the difficulty of the game. maybe GT5 will be like that. But I must say, I like the difficulty of GT4, so maybe that or a little lower.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Dynamic difficulty would be great. If the AI notices you are struggling in your races, it should ease up. If you've beaten every race in one try, it should strengthen a bit. If you've been winning, but needed a few re-tries, and have a few losses, the AI should maintain its difficulty. I can't imagine it being super hard to program, just integrate an incrementally adjustable difficulty with your win ratio/average number of attempts. God Of War has something like this. If you die repeatedly one area (like against a boss) the game offers to lower the difficulty for you.

 

[Dimitrov]

Dynamic difficulty would be great. If the AI notices you are struggling in your races, it should ease up. If you've beaten every race in one try, it should strengthen a bit. If you've been winning, but needed a few re-tries, and have a few losses, the AI should maintain its difficulty. I can't imagine it being super hard to program, just integrate an incrementally adjustable difficulty with your win ratio/average number of attempts. God Of War has something like this. If you die repeatedly one area (like against a boss) the game offers to lower the difficulty for you.

Yes. This is ridiculously easy to concept. The hard thing is what variables GT5 shall consider for this intelligent resource.

I am saying this for the 3rd or 4th time in this forum. Easier technologies of Artificial Intelligence are way known in the computing area.

1) Genetic Algorithm
2) Case-Based Reasoning

Both hav their advantages and disadvantages and they are relatively simple mathematical tecniques, compared to something harder like Novadex physics, for example.

Perhaps a C-Spec shall consist in computer trying to mimetize your driving style. This returns a function based on your inputs.

CPU = F(PLAYER)
New computer abilities = function (your ghost replay)

Computer tries to equal your ghost and make the necessary corrections like passings, breaking points, slipstreams, tyre wear and etc. Come on. Why in an endurance computers just don't pace your lap? It is perfectly possible.

At the end, PS3 shall generate a hash data / checksum / magic number / whatever to integrate a worldwide database of artificial intelligence. In 6 months of online playing, your PS3 will always download and update to your memory card the latest and most intelligent computer behavior.

That's how I want GT5.

My god. They are japanese. They invented portability, they invented nano-everything, they invented J-doramas (all right, that does not fits into GT ). Asking for a well known solution between software engineers is not too much.

 

[Carl.]

In terms of physic, damage and assists? I'd like it to be as close to the real thing as possible so I'd say very hard, obviously with adjustable options to suit a less hardcore crowd.

I don't care much about the difficulty of the AI, I had enough of that since GT2. I'll pick my difficulty level by choosing the online servers I'll race on. I'll race the AI only to get the cars I want if they're locked the same way as in GT4. If anything, I'd like the AI to be at least on par with the one in GT Legends, just to make it less of a PITA. And If the online isn't up to what I expect, I won't bother buying the game. That means much more than a 6 players field, with minimal lag and reliable connections.

I'm also not sure I'll bother if the physics aren't significally improved from what they are in GT4.

 

[SkylineObsession]

Probably not related, but i'd like to see every race made longer (excluding enduro's) as they were just too short in GT4, thus sometimes reducing the challenge because you had to modify your car to a level where you'd get the lead in one or two laps to win.

If the AI fought with you a bit more (non-contact) it would make it a lot more fun too. Basically to make the series challenging, all they have to do is fix the AI. Then they won't brake so early, will probably corner better and utilise the top speed of the car more (they button off in GT4).

In saying that, they have to be realistic too like Forza, where they can make mistakes/spin off the track even if you're half a track away from them.

The cheating AI in GT3 and GT4 does not challenge you, it mostly frustrates you more than anything. Take a completely stock (bar oil change and perhaps tyres) R3x GT-R Skyline into the race of the red emblem, and even the R31 Skyline will fly away on the straights...

So basically, the difficulty level mostly comes down to the AI. Get that fixed and the game wil have an incredible amount more life in it. I'm currently addicted to Forza, thanks to eight car field and semi-intelligent ai (better than GT4's).

 

[McLaren]

I'd like it to be a little more challenging in certain areas, but by no means GTR challenging.

IMHO, it really needs to depend on the race itself, and the race's requirements.

 

[DappaDaRealist]

but by no means GTR challenging.

my opinion: by all means GTR challenging. though, essentialy, the user should be able to adjust the difficulty level according to his or her preferance, it's the best way to go.
maybe the Default difficulty level should be set lower, as i'm assuming the hardcore racing sim fans are a minority.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Hmm, yeah sort of have an automated difficulty based on win ratio, average position and number of attempts at each of say, the 10 most recent events, that would provide a pretty fare and frustration limiting flow of gameplay, it could lead to some playersnot beng able to get that elusive 1000% win ratio needed to beat the game 100% in the minimum number of day's, but then again, the players that attempt that are usually the more skillful of players so it might not. Either way, it's a small price to pay for a game with dynamic difficulty provided it works well.

That wouldnt work for players that are quick but lose alot of races because they race with their favorite cars/slower cars/dont care about win ratio. I would hate it if the game became easier because I lost some races in the GT world cup because i was using an Impreza.

I want the game to be at its hardest at all times!

 

[Brett]

My biggest beef with GT4 is the AI. I just started playing GT4 again this past weekend, from a save I had previously that was saved right after obtaining all of the licenses, and the AI can be frustrating at times.

I just did the Tuner Series today in a Amuse S2000 R1. I first tried to do the series in the Amuse completely stock and could keep up with the AI in braking and cornering, in fact surpassing the AI in both. But when it came to straightline speed, I couldn't touch any of the cars and being that the first three races are on tracks that demand high straightline speed, I had absolutely no chance whatsoever. So after coming to realization, I went back and slightly modified the Amuse. I bumped the power up about 40 horsepower and added some slicks. This evened out the field a whole lot better; but I was still being easily caught on the straights, though this was evened out because my cornering speeds were much higher and I could brake much, much later. On the race at Tokyo R246 and after the completion of the first lap, I was leading the race, but not by a large margin over the Opera S2000. But come time for the first corner, I am strongly defending my position and the Opera just absolutely clobbers me and sends me sideways into the wall. At this point there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of me catching up to the Opera . . . too big of a horsepower gap. It was extremely frustrating that I did not win the race because the AI was too stupid to stop itself from clobbering me.

Basically, my biggest problem is the AI not being smart enough to recognize situations.

I also have a problem with having to go out of my way to contruct a car that will just make races challenging. Such as the Tuner Series I just mentioned. I was in a car that is severely mismatched in horsepower, but is grossly better at cornering; it was the only way I could challenge myself in the series. Down the straights I have to block the entire length of the straight to just maintain my position, though if a corner shows up I easily pull away. When it comes to stock JGTC car versus stock JGTC car, the AI has no chance of beating me, unless I just make a severe mistake. This goes for just about any class of car, when the matchup is supposed to be "even". I would like to see even cars competing with me, instead of me just toying with them.

 

[3spddrft]

I do a lot of reading of these forums but very little posting. I'm wondering if there is something I am missing when it comes to completion of the game and difficulty. With difficulty comes rewards. When people can set their own level then the rewards are all fair game for anyone who can click the setting to Easy. This isn't so important now, but when GT5 comes out with online play I'm sure there will be a number of people who would like special privleges due to their excellent driving skill.

I am, what I call, a very poor racer. I spend most of my time doing comparisons on Nurburgring or in Gymkhana trying to drift random cars. However, I would really like to have access to some of the great cars that the GT series has to offer.

Difficulty ties into real life IMO and not just in the physics sense. There are very few great drivers in real life that can prove their speed time and time again. I would like to see that kind of minority of people stand out in the GT series. The idea of having opponents cars power or handling adjusted according to the users talents is stupid to me. I would much prefer a system where amatuer racers with less skills compete in lower level racing. I agree with whoever said that buying a game doesn't mean one should be able to beat it. How is it possible for an amatuer racer, like myself, to enjoy the wonderful cars and tracks that GT5 will have to offer? Arcade Mode and saving money to afford the cars that I want to drive. This was almost done in previous GT series games. I did it myself. I played the same simple easy race over and over and over again untill I worked up one hundred thousand dollars to buy the car I wanted. This is a major waste of time and unrealistic because series do not end and start that often. They also put restrictions on people that win too much. The solution for saving money is having an income. With the addition of Online, I can see many ways for someone to earn an income, such as, selling tuned cars, used cars, custom graphics, etc. Also with online, it would be, hopefully, possible for people to bet on races.

In order to practice for races that are not constantly repeating, people should be able to select a field of cars to race against at a track for a small fee. I'm undecided yet on if I would like to actually be able to recognize other racers move up in the game as I do or if that AI element should be left out and most of the competition should be on the internet.

There might be somepeople who would like to go straight to the JGTC, FIA GT or F1 races but I think that there should not be a bunch of amatuers going crazy bouncing off walls in those cars. If that is a desire of theirs though, It should be offered in Arcade mode just not as fully as it would be in the GT/Career mode. In arcade mode, I can see arcade mode as just a very shallow interface designed to keep the casual player happy. It could have difficulty settings.

I don't like posting because most of the time, I don't think my ideas all of the way through. Maybe I can contribute something to this discussion though. Everyone have a wonderful night, and see if there is something good that can be taken from what I've said.

 

[Tenacious D]

I want Gran Turismo 5 to operate on three different levels.

Arcade Mode: The most basic level of difficulty. Competent A.I. but not overly aggressive.

Gran Turismo Mode: The traditional GT gameplay, in which the bots are more agressive, and the challenge increases as you progrss into the higher levels of professional racing.

Season and Career Modes: Gameplay modes I've been quietly lobbying for here on the boards, which are based on real life racing schedules in many disciplines. Much like the modes in Toca 3, you choose a "career" or style of racing, and complete the racing schedule against the best professional drivers in the league, trying to collect the most points to win. In Career Mode, it goes all the way back to the very start, in something like the Sports Car Club of America, in which you buy a good sprts car and try to work your way into the pro leagues.

These would be the more challenging modes of play, and offer racing with the stiffest, most professional competition. The most like the PC sim games.

In Arcade and GT Modes, the difficulty is as much set by the race as your decision to try and overpower them with car mods, or not. In Season and Career Modes, it's based on pure skill and luck. And perhaps a difficulty level.

Overall, I would like GT5 to have about the same level of difficulty as GT4, minus the annoying rabbit cars and unnecessarily high difficulty levels in some races. I'd also like to see a marked division between the Arcade and GT Modes, and Season and Career Modes. In Season/Career Mode, you race purely for points, cash prizes and sponsorships. Any cars and money you have in GT Mode should remain there, unless some system is worked out where you have access to them in order to create a race team or something. But I would rather they remain different universes, so that everything you earn in Career Mode is done with skill, luck, determination and perspiration.

On GT's bots. You guys should feel lucky this isn't forzacentral, and you find yourselves griping about bots that INTENTIONALLY ram you. I've posted numerous time on how bloodthirsty they are. I've seen numerous occasions where the lead car or cars will slow down to clog turns so that the following cars can catch up and cause me grief! They're total and complete smacktards. I LOVE Gran Turismos bots now.

There is a solution. Well, two. Either turn down the difficulty to easy - only a partial fix sometimes, or teach your "drivatar" how to race.

Last year, I had speculated on the possibility of actually teaching your B-Spec driver how to race by taking some sample cars out onto test tracks or race courses and showing him how you drive.

Well, Forza has this feature, and it's amazing! I've trained my drivatar, who I named B-Spec Bob, and even at an average of 85% skill level he's astoundingly good. I'm having him finish off some races in Forza for me because I'm too sleepy to properly drive them, and they're just clean-up races I'd beaten before anyhow. I'm hoping that Polyphony lifts this idea from Forza, like they've bummed a few from other games in the past. And come on, they all do it. This is for a good cause, a better GT5.

Also, 3spddrft has some great points. They should be considered.

 

[JohnBM01]

I'm sick of "B-Spec Bob." Just a cheesy, crap name. B-Spec is my teammate. Or to use sports terms, he's my backup driver or my 2nd String racer. Part of difficulty is the tracks raced and the competition you're up against. I usually say that racing Motegi's East Short Course or the full Motegi Road Course will only lead to frustration because the course is too tricky to try to catch up to the pack if trailing. So it even comes down to tracks and the competition.

An old GTP buddy of mine once said in an IM that Forza Motorsport could be completely easy by just setting the difficulty all the way to Easy. So you can basically take the easy way out in saying that "I beat a Ferrari Enzo with my... oh wait. Forza doesn't have sub-200hp cars. NEVER MIND! G4 show "X-Play" said that Forza was more adaptable than GT4, since GT4 was very challenging to the crew. GT4 was tough, but it's not extremely tough. I recently had to clear a race in GT4 I didn't get Gold on, which was the New Beetle Cup race at Tsukuba. It took three tries and tuning adjustments to eventually win.

Now for my perspective. The challenge in GT4 was unlike any of the past GTs. Go ahead and criticize me since I'm not kissing up to GT1-3. Fact of the matter is that the challenge in GT4 was greater. I am usually fair in most of my races. I recently took my tuned-up Corvette C5 ZO6 to the "Vette! Vette! Vette!" events. I didn't realize that my black C5 ZO6 (I don't choose black often. Just want you to know that) was so under-tuned. I had to use most of my race winnings (10K Cr for a win) to basically complete my car. I was blowing out the competition with more finances. Surprisingly, the car was still a great car even on Sport Tires. If I could, I could bump up the HP of the Corvette to be used in the Supercar Festival if I wanted to. Just have to hope it can be a racer and not an also-ran. People say GT4 was easy because you could basically enter with a gutted-out Le Mans race car in a race against sub-compacts. I don't like making these stupid and unreasonable blowout races. I'll be fair unless I get bored or frustrated. As you all know, I'm not a Nürburgring Nordschleife fanatic. It pained me to race a track this long, this unforgiving, this narrow, and simply challenging course. I felt like you race the track for one reason- to hurry up and get on with life. I got nothing against the track itself. Great venue. Just that I don't see any fun in continually racing around this very long course like it was nothing. The longest track I'll do is Le Mans, since I'm used to Le Mans and know how to race it very well. That's my thrill ride in an environment which isn't as unforgiving, yet still great for pure racing. I prefer the challenge in GT5 to be like GT4, only that I don't want to feel like I have to accept something like a 5-race losing streak. GT4 was the toughest GT I've ever played. Winning races in the GT World Championship kind of gave you a sense of accomplishment, as you were able to take on high-powered prototype race cars around tough environments. I'm not the best racer, but I don't want to keep losing races like I need to go back to driving school to win a race. I guess the inclusion of a Win/Loss ratio gets me thinking that I'd want to win every race just to feel I have a sense of accomplishment. Luckily for ToCA Race Driver games, you don't get that. So it's okay to lose, only as long as you qualify for next season. Keep the challenge as best as possible so that I can still win the race without the need for something hardcore.

Well, keep the replies going.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

There is one really easy way to get the game to be as hard, or as easy, as anyone would like!
Adjustable startingfields for the AI!
Lets take a random race from GT4; the 1000km of Fuji 90´s. It has 17 cars the AI can use to race in. For GT5, I would like there to be an icon where I can enter and see all 17 eligable cars that the AI may use, and then simply mark out the ones I want to race against!
As of now, in GT4, I have to go in and out of the race to get a different lineup, and given the enormous amount of different possibilities only 17 cars make out, I can sit by my PS2 for days on end without encountering the lineup I want!
I want a challenge, but I want it to be within reason!

 

[Brett]

That is something I also find as an annoyance. The starting lineups can be pretty consistent with most of the cars, i.e. all of the cars are pretty equal. But occassionally, it was decided that a ringer should be thrown in to throw everything off. This absolutely annoys the heck out of me, as it causes you to have to tune your car more than it would need to be if you just took the rest of the pack into consideration.

 

[Encyclopedia]

I want GT5 to be way more challenging than GT4 in terms of car handeling, meaning it should be way more realistic.

 

[a112]

But again,if GT4 is too easy for you,choose the car that gives 200 a-spec points for race.In GT5 should be even harder events(not that much hard),but again it would be nice to have difficulity "sensor" on AI or something like that.
Licenses again,close to GT4,harder but not so hard as double GT4 hardness

 

[Dave A]

My argument is that you shouldn't have to choose a GT500 class car or worse to make a race against GT1, LMP and group C car's a challenge.

 

[Jim Prower]

Heeey, I like the idea of AI matching your ability! that way, It's not too easy, not to hard!

I'd also like to see my "Hired Gun" (My Name for B-Spec Bob) match my ability. That way, I wouldn't have to worry about him losing a race i've worked so hard to win.

 

[TheCracker]

Are we talking about how 'challenging' it is to complete the game? or how 'challenging' the A.I. competetion is?

If its how 'challenging' it is to complete the game - then i'd like to see some 'mid enduro' save options when you come into the pits. I never really have more than an hour or so's free time were i can play GranTurismo and i'm not leaving my PS2 on for days on end, not with my house hold electrics, so i'll never get chance to enter these enduros, and therefore will never complete the GT4. They gave us the option to save during a 'series' in GT4 - they should let us save mid enduro in GT5.

I recently took my tuned-up Corvette C5 ZO6 to the "Vette! Vette! Vette!" events. I didn't realize that my black C5 ZO6 (I don't choose black often. Just want you to know that) was so under-tuned. I had to use most of my race winnings (10K Cr for a win) to basically complete my car. I was blowing out the competition with more finances. Surprisingly, the car was still a great car even on Sport Tires.

I don't get this John, when i entered this series i ran with a fully tuned '56 Vette (the oldest, 6cyl Vette in GT4) totally expecting to be blown away by the rest of the field - but i wasn't! - i won the first race by a huge margin. For subsequent races i had too 'lose' almost all my tuning parts just to give the A.I. the slightest of chances.

 

[a112]

Heeey, I like the idea of AI matching your ability! that way, It's not too easy, not to hard!

I'd also like to see my "Hired Gun" (My Name for B-Spec Bob) match my ability. That way, I wouldn't have to worry about him losing a race i've worked so hard to win.

How about something like this,you finish your lap,save ghost,go to b-spec,load ghost and let the bob learn your racing line

 

[Flerbizky]

I'd like to kill B-Spec Bob - But that's just me ;-) I think mine has done around 12 kms all in all... What I would like is a decent AI Driver that can match my ability so I, with good conscience, can make him do stints in 24 hour races. One that learns with me along the way and matches my behaviour.

I want a more agressive, but wiser AI, in DTM races eg. a little rubbing is part of the race where as it'll avoid such stuff in F1 races.. And I want the AI to be as hard, or easy as people want. Give me a slider with settings from 1 to 10, let beginners enjoy the game at 1 when they start for the first time, giving the AI (if not completely) inferior cars in the races all the way through the game, where as put at 10, you'll always (from race 1 and on) be (more or less) outgunned and have to rely on your magic skills to beat the AI...

Give me that and I'll never need another racing game again - If I get a dashboard view that is !....

[Edit:] Of course, physics will also change with the 1-10 slider setting. 1 will be a lot more forgiving (eg. extremely efficient TCS) whereas 10 will equal (hopefully better) the feel of say - GTR...

[Edit2:] Again, of course, no matter where on the 1-10 scale you are, you'll of course still have the chance of screwing up the settings and turning off TCS etc. At the lower levels, you could just have the game limit the amount to suspension settings to something sensitive - say you won't be able to put your Benz Evo completely on it's belly at Nürburgring whereas you'll be allowed to do so on glass smooth surfaces...

 

[Niels]

I want it to be just right, and that's different to every person

For me, I'd like to see a challenge in everything, challenging in going up race-classes, challenging AI, challenging starter budget(!), challenging/real physics.
I don't want it to be extremely challenging, I just want to see alot of challenges while going through the game.

 

[JohnBM01]

VashTheStampede... you remind me of GT3. When I did "Stars and Stripes," one of the cars in the series was a Corvette C5R. I got a freaking Ford Mustang Cobra R. And you know what I did when I saw the C5R in the lineup? I took my entry out of the race. I don't want to lose in a blowout.

The majority of the public talk about a difficulty-adjusting system. Not too hard and not too easy. Now, I want you to define "easy," and "hard" in regards to the AI and the competition.

 

[Brett]

Yes, that race is a great example of a ringer being thrown into a race and it made the race somewhat frustrating because of the majority of the field being vastly slower than the C5R. It defeats a whole lot of the competition when you have to pick a car that can stay up with the C5R.

One series in GT4 comes to mind and that is the World Classics race with slower older cars and an AC 427 thrown in. The other cars are all pretty evenly matched, but they have absolutely no chance of staying up with the 427. The speed differential is huge.

By doing this, it takes 2/3rds of the field out of the race and that really shouldn't be the case. I can understand one car be faster than the rest in the field, like as in faster, but able to be beaten; but when the car has a vastly huge speed advantage, it hurts the competition.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Yes, that race is a great example of a ringer being thrown into a race and it made the race somewhat frustrating because of the majority of the field being vastly slower than the C5R. It defeats a whole lot of the competition when you have to pick a car that can stay up with the C5R.

One series in GT4 comes to mind and that is the World Classics race with slower older cars and an AC 427 thrown in. The other cars are all pretty evenly matched, but they have absolutely no chance of staying up with the 427. The speed differential is huge.

By doing this, it takes 2/3rds of the field out of the race and that really shouldn't be the case. I can understand one car be faster than the rest in the field, like as in faster, but able to be beaten; but when the car has a vastly huge speed advantage, it hurts the competition.

Absolutely correct! This is why I would like the ability to pick my own opposition. That way, I can avoid the, as you say, ringers, and more evenly match my opponents to the car I am driving.
The ringers make all other AI competitors obsolete, as you have to match the ringer to win.