How does the tranny trick work?
- Thread starter Brunet Paquet
- 116 comments
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- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
No, it doesn't. I was tuning my HSV Weider at Fuji F earlier for a quick 5 lap race, my goal time was 1:40 on RH tires, I played with the gearing as it was too long managing only 15x mph across the finish line, reducing the 4th to 6th gear did not affect other lower gear speed or shift point.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 5,814
- Hillsboro Oregon
- XDesperado67
- XDesperado67
I'm talking about it making a quantifiable change to acceleration not just a visual change to the graphs.
Go to the speed test track. Use automatic transmission so the car gets identical launch and shifts on repeated runs. If you do back to back runs with the same settings you should get identical times. Then change a higher gear than what the car uses for 0-60 while leaving everything else the same. There will be a slight difference in your time. For whatever reason the way the game works changing any 1 gear ratio has an impact on the cars performance in all gears both higher and lower and doesn't just affect the gear changed and possibly the one above it as might be expected.
Go to the speed test track. Use automatic transmission so the car gets identical launch and shifts on repeated runs. If you do back to back runs with the same settings you should get identical times. Then change a higher gear than what the car uses for 0-60 while leaving everything else the same. There will be a slight difference in your time. For whatever reason the way the game works changing any 1 gear ratio has an impact on the cars performance in all gears both higher and lower and doesn't just affect the gear changed and possibly the one above it as might be expected.
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
Am I the only one left that just eyeballs gearboxes?
I count in clicks and measure by memory.
Despite the calculations I mentioned, I don't use them, I too just visually set the trans up. Default, Max Final, Min Top Speed, Max 6th, Min 1st, 2nd min, 3-5 spaced evenly. Use Final to adjust top speed per track. Once every now and then, I decide I'm gunna get sneaky with tranny gears, like yesterday for example, this thread inspired me to go do some testing. I spent 2 hours, running my Takata down the test track repeatedly with all sorts of ideas, theories, tests, experiments. My conclusion was that... It doesn't matter enough to waste my time. Get your launch right, set your top speed, and call it a mofo'n day!
On the note, of certain gears, effecting the rest of the gears, I actually agree. Yesterday I found the *total gear needed to launch for the Takata, from full throttle. I noticed as I changed the 'start point' of my tests, and altered the final drives, that despite the fact that my total gear was the same, I got different results launching off the line, forcing me to change the gears to achieve maximum grip. Initially it was 13.405, and I think at the end of my tests, it was 11.140. I have zero clue as to the how or why though
*Total gear, meaning 1st gear value multiplied by final gear value.
For people still interested in using the equation, there are many ways to manipulate it to your advantage. Instead of inserting Max HP/Tq all you really need to do is insert your optimal RPM drops. I also reversed the equation yesterday, so that instead of starting from 6th and going down, you can start from 1st and go up. (To optimize launch) You can also create set standards of RPM drops for each individual gears, and I also found a way to avoid the equation, and simply find your multiplier by using preferred shift points.
If any one wants this info, or potentially a spreadsheet for it, let me know and I'll grab my notes from yesterday where I wrote it down.
- 12,639
- paracuru
- praiano63
In fact, the 2 principals settings for the tranny trick, don't have the same function at all.
The final gear don't have any influence on the ratios repartition after you set them. It will only moove all the ratios together keeping the same space between them proportionally, increasing or decreasing your top speed.
The main setting for the range of your gears is the top speed setting slider.
If you set the top speed to the minimum, the game will understand that you want to set a gearbox for low speed and will offer you a range of ratios numbers for a very close geaarbox.
If you set the top speed slider to the max , the game will understand that you want to set a gearbox for a max top speed and will offer you a range of ratios that will allow you to start with a short 1st gear to a very long last gear. This represent a bigger space between the ratios.
The fact to moove first the final gear to the right first, is just to be able after the tranny trick to select again a the top speed you want.
For example 1:
reset
Don't move final gear, let stock value.
Top speed to mini full left
Then final gear to have a top speed of 150 mph
Result= 1st gear very long , you will shift to 2d gear at let say for example 50 mph
For example 2:
reset
Don't move final gear, let stock value.
Top speed to maxi full right
Then final gear to have a top speed of 150 mph
Result= 1st gear very short , you will shift to 2d gear at let say for example 25 mph
All this because the game understand first when you select the top speed that you will have to use a shorter or longer gearbox, but with the help of the final gear at the end, you will use this range of ratios for another purpose to fit better to your car.
I know it is a mess to understand with my english semantic, if someone can traduce this with the correct words..... I would be glade.
><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°
The final gear don't have any influence on the ratios repartition after you set them. It will only moove all the ratios together keeping the same space between them proportionally, increasing or decreasing your top speed.
The main setting for the range of your gears is the top speed setting slider.
If you set the top speed to the minimum, the game will understand that you want to set a gearbox for low speed and will offer you a range of ratios numbers for a very close geaarbox.
If you set the top speed slider to the max , the game will understand that you want to set a gearbox for a max top speed and will offer you a range of ratios that will allow you to start with a short 1st gear to a very long last gear. This represent a bigger space between the ratios.
The fact to moove first the final gear to the right first, is just to be able after the tranny trick to select again a the top speed you want.
For example 1:
reset
Don't move final gear, let stock value.
Top speed to mini full left
Then final gear to have a top speed of 150 mph
Result= 1st gear very long , you will shift to 2d gear at let say for example 50 mph
For example 2:
reset
Don't move final gear, let stock value.
Top speed to maxi full right
Then final gear to have a top speed of 150 mph
Result= 1st gear very short , you will shift to 2d gear at let say for example 25 mph
All this because the game understand first when you select the top speed that you will have to use a shorter or longer gearbox, but with the help of the final gear at the end, you will use this range of ratios for another purpose to fit better to your car.
I know it is a mess to understand with my english semantic, if someone can traduce this with the correct words..... I would be glade.
><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°
- 5,814
- Hillsboro Oregon
- XDesperado67
- XDesperado67
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
Yep that's it exactly.
Should be easy to test. Take any transmission that was previously optimal for launch and 1 mile test. Alter nothing but the 6th gear, and race your ghost. If the car is slower/faster through any of the first 5 gears, I'd say that would be proof.
My statement was slightly different. But more than willing to explain if someone wanted to test it. I'm sure I'll test it with another car in the future, but people who readily have cars set up for the launch can easier test it.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
How about changing lower gear only, say 2nd or 3rd gets longer, while 4th to 6th stays the same, top speed should stay the same, right ?
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
Technically, yes. But whether you can effectively reach that top speed within the time/length limit of the 1 mile track, is a different story.
- 12,639
- paracuru
- praiano63
Top speed will stay exactly the same. Just will need more time to go there because of the lack power between 3rd and 4th that will slow the car at this moment.
EDIT: this time i was slower myself...
dr_slump
Premium
- 7,425
- Switzerland
- the_dr_slump / GTP_dr_slump
Shouldn't be
The final gear number does this.
If final gear stays (therefore the first 5 gear ratios too) the same, of course not. 6th gear (if it's the last gear) is a bad example because there's no higher gear which could be affected.
If the distance isn't limited or the acceleration drops to 0 before crossing the line, then yes but otherwise not. It doesn't have to be visible, because usually difference is not even a mph big.
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The tranny trick stuff is there to force the game to give you the best/available possible gear ranges, there's really no magic behind it, only logic. The final gear is the critical point - a tranny with the exact same total gear ratios (single gear * final gear) but lower final gear number will generally be better for acceleration.
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- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
This is the part I was talking about.
I had the Takata launching as fast as I could.
First Gear * Final = 13.045 or something
So, I changed a bunch of stuff around, but I made sure that no matter what, when I multiplied the Final by the First gear ratio, it = 13.045. (13.045/New Final=New 1st)
BUT, what I found was, that even though the 'total gear' was the same, the car accelerated differently, or gripped differently, whether resulting in bog, or excessive spin. Regardless, the point is that, final drive is more than just a ratio that gears are multiplied by.
Rotary Junkie posted this theory long ago, that Lower Final Drives are faster, than a higher final drive, even if every 'total gear' calculates out the exact same. I tested it and found it to be true, but unfortunately it was all muddied by flame wars with noobster back then, so it probably got burried.
dr_slump
Premium
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- the_dr_slump / GTP_dr_slump
That's our daily bread in drag racing.
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- WrecklessAbandon
Slump, you do realize the final gear has virtually nothing to do with what Desperado was talking about right?
And no, most people do not believe a lower final gear is faster, even when they got bullied off the grid starts in identical spec cars. I've found at least 75% of the time you can tell someone exactly why your car is faster, and they won't believe it and/or change their setup anyway. Most won't even try a lot of things.
Edit: I tried that front toe bit Adrenaline, it's worked at least to some degree on every car I've tried it on so far. 👍
And no, most people do not believe a lower final gear is faster, even when they got bullied off the grid starts in identical spec cars. I've found at least 75% of the time you can tell someone exactly why your car is faster, and they won't believe it and/or change their setup anyway. Most won't even try a lot of things.
Edit: I tried that front toe bit Adrenaline, it's worked at least to some degree on every car I've tried it on so far. 👍
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- 3,359
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- PumpinNumbies
dr_slump
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Who do you think does the bullying off the grid starts?
Front toe, entrance/exit over/understeer. Lost the thread. :/
1st half, I agree, it didn't click at first, but I do recall I have already tested cars only changing 6th gear and the ghost surely would have told me if it changed the acceleration before 6th gear.You mean post 65?
Uh well, I thought your post was a reaction on praianos post and not desperados. Alright, but it doesn't change the rest of my post, only the "no" and "nah".
Edited it now.
In the drag community pretty much every decent tuner believes it (and can even prove it...).
2nd half, who do you think is doing the bullying off grid starts?
dr_slump
Premium
- 7,425
- Switzerland
- the_dr_slump / GTP_dr_slump
6th gear story: Surprisingly, if I go to the Speed Test mode, the difference is less than 0.001sec... practically 0...Who do you think does the bullying off the grid starts?
Front toe, entrance/exit over/understeer. Lost the thread. :/
1st half, I agree, it didn't click at first, but I do recall I have already tested cars only changing 6th gear and the ghost surely would have told me if it changed the acceleration before 6th gear.
2nd half, who do you think is doing the bullying off grid starts?
(unless you touched the final gear or shifted into 6th (why would you?) - if yes --> -_-)
2nd: The big majority? I rarely do flying starts...
- 12,639
- paracuru
- praiano63
For my surprise the theory is true. Low final gear ratio are faster than higher final gear ratios.
Here are the 2 gearboxes totally igual in term of ratios.
Gearbox 1:
top speed mini 180 kmh
Final gear mini 3.000
1-3.405
2-2.727
3-2.224
4-1.835
5-1.532
6-1.306
top speed up right 251 kmh
Gearbox 2:
Final gear to the max full right
top speed mini 180 kmh
Then final gear again 4.138
1-2.469
2-1.977
3-1.611
4-1.330
5-1.110
6-0.947
top speed up right 251 kmh
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
So which one was faster? 3.000 or 4.138?
- 12,639
- paracuru
- praiano63
lower 3.000
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
Interesting. You built an almost identical box https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Akr4MBOtjOcqdGw1RjVpOS14R0htZXQ4NEZDUzBRWmc yet you found a little over 0.2 seconds difference.
Is your testing repeatable?
Is your testing repeatable?
- 12,639
- paracuru
- praiano63
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- WrecklessAbandon
It varies from car to car, but to my knowledge, lower FD is always faster, if only a little sometimes.
Of course sometimes the difference is huge, like a Z06 RM.
The simple way to test is to move the FD first, and set the TS slider to the same speed/gearing for each. Maybe not exactly as exact, but exact enough.
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