How would you add a Gr.4 & Gr.3 car for the automakers that don't have 'em?

[rex1825]

TBH with you, I'd exclude all the cars that don't have GT3 or GT4 counterparts... and rebalanced all that do exist to their real life specifications... Added GT300 cars and some of the GT4's (like X-Bow etc)

Same goes for Gr1...

 

[tankuroded]

Bumping in light of last Sunday's TMS Manufacturer's Exhibition after Daihatsu and Suzuki had to borrow Toyota FT-1 VGT and Lexus RC F GT3...

Suzuki: Swift Sport Gr.3 (Beetle Gr.3-style conversion) or GSX-R/4 Gr.3, Swift Sport Gr.4 (buffed GT5P Tuned Car or SX4 WRC aero style)
Daihatsu: Copen Gr.3 (GT300 Mother Chassis style), Copen RJ VGT Gr.4

 

[05XR8]

I think Suzuki Gr.3/Gr.4/Gr.B cars could be based on the Vitara

 

[LotusEvoraGTE]

Few ideas for this thread:

Already in the game as of this post:
Abarth - I'd have suggested the Abarth 124 GT4 but that was unfortunately shelved some time ago. But an original Gr.3 and Gr.4 model for the 124 would serve well.

Alpine - A110 GT4 for Gr.4 and an original Gr.3 version made by PD.

Bugatti - I've heard the Bugatti VGT was originally intended to be homologated for Gr.3. Aside from that, a Gr.3 version of the Chiron or Veyron could do.

KTM - X-Bow GT4 and an original Gr.3 version, just like Alpine.

Maserati - Maserati GranTurismo MC GT4 for Gr.4 and the Maserati MC12 GT1 for Gr.3. Or alternatively, a Maserati GranTurismo Gr.3.

TVR - Gr.4 and Gr.3 versions of the TVR Griffith. And maybe with a bit of stat re-adjusting, the Tuscan Speed Six RM in Gr.4, perhaps.

 

[MIE1992]

We could also make a list of Gr.1 cars for automakers that don't have them, too. Strictly being limited to real-world cars, and based on what we know is eligible for each group, (e.g. BPR-era GT1 cars being in Gr.3, such as the McLaren F1 GTR, or GTE cars being in Gr.3 with the Porsche 911 RSR) here's what I'd suggest, along with some more rougher guesses:

Gr.1
Acura ARX-05
Alfa Romeo SE048SP
Aston Martin AMR-One
Bentley Speed 8
BMW GTP
BMW V12 LMR
Cadillac Northstar DPi-V.R
Chevrolet Corvette C7 DPi
Chevrolet Corvette GTP
Chrysler Dallara SP1
Ferrari 333SP
Ford C100
Ford Mustang GTP
Ginetta G60-LT-P1
Honda ARX-04b
Lamborghini Countach QVX
Lancia LC2
Lister Storm LMP
Lotus T128
MG EX265C
Pontiac Riley Mk.XX Daytona Prototype
Shelby LR-93

Gr.2
Aston Martin Vantage DTM
Audi RS 5 DTM
BMW M4 DTM
Mercedes-Benz C-Class DTM
Opel Astra DTM
Toyota Supra GT500

Gr.3
ASL Garaiya GT300
Bentley Continental GT3
Bugatti EB110 SC (GT1)
De Tomaso Pantera (GT1)
Ginetta G55 GT3
Lister Storm GTS (GT1)
Lotus Espirit GT1
Lotus Evora GTE
Renault Sport Spyder V6 (GT1)
Maserati GranTurismo GT3
Panoz Esperante GT-LM
Sard MC8-R
Spyker C8 GT2-R
TVR Tuscan T400R
Venturi 600SLM

Gr.4
Ginetta G50 GT4
KTM X-Bow GT4
Maserati GranTurismo GT4
Abarth 124 GT4

This is, of course, before we get into stuff like pending VGTs (some of which could be out of left field, like the recent Jaguar), or if the hypercar class will fit into Gr.1, especially with how many more automakers could be entering vehicles with the class' aim of being more affordable compared to LMP1. There are also other real-world racing series that could be eligible for these groups even though we don't anything concrete, and PD could also be working on more made-for-game racecars in the vein of the 4C Gr.3, or the Genesis Gr.3.

There could also be more real-world race cars that could be added to automakers that already have a car (or multiple) in that class. For example, given that BPR-era GT1 cars seem to be going into Gr.3, I could see Ferrari, Nissan, and Toyota getting the F40 LM, GT-R R33 LM, and Supra LM added to Gr.3. I could also see the newer Ford GT LM and BMW M8 GTE also going in Gr.3, given that GTE cars like the Porsche 911 RSR seem to be fair game for Gr.3. We also aren't 100% sure how JGTC-era race cars will factor in, or the extant Super GT300, even though it seems likely that last group will be in Gr.3, since they often race alongside FIA GT3 cars. (I've put GT300 cars regardless in the above list.) There's also the potential factor of TCR cars fitting in somewhere, too.

To be honest, for balancing reasons, I had the idea that only the Manufacturers Series would be where you could see all the cars in a given group at once, whereas if a Nations Cup race uses that same group, perhaps only a selection of cars from a given group could be eligible, such as just Group C cars, or just the FIA GT3 cars. This approach of a typically more limited selection would also expand to the Daily Races. It also could make things more interesting in general, when there could easily be multiple cars for a single automaker that qualify for a given group, from various racing series from across the world - and across time.

Ideally, though, they'd still be as balanced as possible for when there are indeed events that permit them - I personally was thinking of making the power, weight, and final gear ratios for each car uniform for when BoP is enabled, rather than leaving the final gear ratio unchanged, and making only relatively minor changes to the power/weight. The only exceptions to that approach (of making the power and weight uniform) could be when there's something like a hybrid system for a given vehicle.

EDIT: Another note regarding GT1 is that we're not 100% sure of how the SRO-era GT1 cars will fit in, like the Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR, the Nissan R390, or the Maserati MC12.

EDIT2: It also seems like IMSA GTP cars are similar enough to Group C cars that they'd likely be put into Gr.1, so I've edited that list respectively. It also appears that IMSA GTO is similar enough to GT1 that they were in the same class for the 1994 BPR GT series, so I'll be adding IMSA GTO cars to that Gr.3 list. Finally, I made a partial list of cars that could be put into the existing groups for the automakers that do already have a car in that group:

Gr.1
Jaguar XJR-14
Nissan GTP ZX-Turbo
Toyota TS020
Toyota 88C-V
Audi R8 '01
Audi R10 '06

Gr.2
Nissan Fairlady Z (Z33) '06 (GT500)
Toyota Supra Mk.IV '05 (GT500)

Gr.3
Lexus IS350 (GT300)
Subaru BR-Z (GT300)
McLaren 720S GT3
Nissan Skyline GT-R (R33) LM
Toyota Supra GT LM
Ferrari F40 LM
Jaguar XJ220 (GT1)
Honda NSX (GT1)
Mazda RX-7 GTO
Ford Mustang GTO
Nissan 300ZX GTO
Audi 90 Quattro GTO
Ford GT LM
Ferrari 488 GTE
BMW M8 GTE
Aston Martin Vantage AMR GTE
Chevrolet Corvette C7.R
Chevrolet Corvette C8.R
Subaru Impreza WRX STI '08 (GT300)

 

[tankuroded]

With the return of Ruf, it seems that PD could just copy what R3E has been doing should they need a Gr.3 car:

The question is, what would be their Gr.4 car?

 

[LotusEvoraGTE]

With the return of Ruf, it seems that PD could just copy what R3E has been doing should they need a Gr.3 car:

The question is, what would be their Gr.4 car?

Or they could take notes from SMS. [coughRGT-8GT3cough]

 

[MIE1992]

I think with the new Peugeot-Rebellion partnership for the hypercar class, and how close an official rendering resembles the Gr.1 Peugeot VGT, I'd say that the new WEC Hypercar class cars will fit nicely into Gr.1. This would be especially good for Aston Martin, as the only other car I could see being in Gr.1 is the AMR-One, as far as Aston Martin goes. I think that even Pontiac could have a Gr.1 car via the Riley Mk.XX Daytona Prototype.

In addition, I think the new Lamborghini VGT would be a good Gr.1 candidate, given its general shape and power figure. It'd be a great alternative to the older Countach QVX, especially if Lamborghini doesn't end up entering that WEC hypercar class.

 

[05XR8]

The RUF Gr.4 car could be the RGT-8.

Pontiac had the GTO.R. That could be Gr.3 with the Monaro styled GTO as a Gr.4 spec.

 

[MIE1992]

I wonder if Australian Supercars could fit into Gr.2? They do have that shell-body sort of thing going on. And while I do think DTMasters cars would fit into Gr.2, I'm not as sure about DTMeisterschaft cars, like the Alfa Romeo 155TI. I also am not sure about Super GT and JGTC GT300 cars fitting into Gr.3, as I think they'd need a decent amount of additional power to fit in. To compare, the Gr.3 Lancer and WRX STI have more than just 300hp like many real-world GT300 cars have, despite the Gr.3 Lancer and WRX STI having bodykits that largely resemble Super GT racers, and that GT300 often races alongside FIA GT3 cars in reality.

On a similar subject, I'm also curious about GT1. It seems a lot like the BPR era GT1 cars will go into Gr.3, as we've seen with the McLaren F1 GTR, but what about the SRO era GT1 cars? I think the Diablo GT that raced in GT500 was one such car. And the SRO era GT1 cars includes some notable stuff, like the Nissan R390, the Mercedes CLK-GTR, and the Panoz Esperante GTR-1. That's before we get into other GT1 cars from later on, like the Saleen S7R and Maserati MC12.

I'm also curious if GT2 could be added to Gr.3, given that it's the predecessor to GTE, which is already in Gr.3 with the Porsche 911 RSR.

I'm just seeing a lot of potential for these classes, and tons of automaker representation between them all. Then, even with BoP, you could have more specific regulations on eligible cars, picking them car-by-car, leading to some fun rulesets.

 

[linksracer]

I wonder if Australian Supercars could fit into Gr.2?

The only track that I am aware of where Australian Supercars can be compared to a category in the game is Mt Panorama. The lap times seen from the Supercars is closer to, but still not faster than the GT3 cars that race in the Bathurst 12 hour. Based on these lap times, I would say that the supercars would need some serious BOPing to be competitive with anything in Gr2.

Although the supercars may appear to make a similar power figure to GT500 and have a superior top speed to GT3, they are severely lacking in downforce compared to both these categories. So it would be interesting to have them included in Gr3 where they would have the straight line advantage , but lose out in the corners, which I could imagine would lead to some good battles. They should definitely not be included in Gr2 as they would be outgunned in almost every aspect.

 

[05XR8]

Yes, Supercars would be similar to the Gr.3 Atenza. Just add a V8(or V6TT ). The Gr.3 Mustang is closer to the MARC Cars Gen II V8. That's capable of beating GT3 cars. It's just that they are restricted to set times at the Bathurst 12H. Otherwise, they could battle for overall wins.

 

[tankuroded]

On a similar subject, I'm also curious about GT1. It seems a lot like the BPR era GT1 cars will go into Gr.3, as we've seen with the McLaren F1 GTR, but what about the SRO era GT1 cars? I think the Diablo GT that raced in GT500 was one such car. And the SRO era GT1 cars includes some notable stuff, like the Nissan R390, the Mercedes CLK-GTR, and the Panoz Esperante GTR-1. That's before we get into other GT1 cars from later on, like the Saleen S7R and Maserati MC12.

These are "FIA/loophole" era GT1 cars, by the way. I have feeling they could be placed to Gr.1 based on PP ratings/AI grid choices in GT6 and the fact they're essentially viewed as prototypes.

I'm also curious if GT2 could be added to Gr.3, given that it's the predecessor to GTE, which is already in Gr.3 with the Porsche 911 RSR.

The M3 E90 GT2 already answers that.

 

[MIE1992]

The M3 E90 GT2 already answers that.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Still, it’d be neat to see all sorts of automakers in Gr.3 via GT2, like Panoz and Spyker.

 

[SestoScudo]

Forget this by this rate we aint gonna get any at all

 

[MIE1992]

Forget this by this rate we aint gonna get any at all

I didn’t necessarily say that I expected these additions would come in GTS, but either in an update or the next title, especially if the next title uses a similar category system. These cars could even end up being part of an update for that next game, if they’re not included at launch.

Also, I just read that a slightly modified version of the Panoz Esperante GTR-1, named the Panoz GTP, raced alongside the Audi R8 LMP, so that very well could be further evidence that the FIA/loophole GT1 cars from the late 90s would fit into Gr.1...

At any rate, I’ll continue to edit the list I made earlier ITT to include other potential additions to each class.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I wonder if Australian Supercars could fit into Gr.2? They do have that shell-body sort of thing going on.

Absolutely not. Yes, they may produce 650HP but they weight about 1,450KG with a high centre of gravity, relatively narrow tyres and a locked rear diff. The aero is minimal compared to Super GT cars. No comparison whatsoever, they're completely different vehicles.

 

[VulcanSpirit]

Though I wasn't too disappointed not to see Opel/Vauxhall in GT Sport on launch, I've been thinking on and off about how they would fit into the Manufacturers Series and what sort of vehicles could be represented in the game's main racing categories. Logically, I can see the following options:

Gr.4:
Astra TCR '16 - An actual front-wheel drive touring car, possibly along with a few other TCRs like the VW Golf, Honda Civic, Hyundai i30, etc.



Astra Gr.4 - Failing that, there's also the opportunity to create a fantasy FWD Gr.4 car based on the BTCC racer developed by Power Maxed Racing.

Gr.3:
Insignia Gr.3 - What inspired me to post this after watching an Australian Supercars e-series race this morning. Essentially based on the Holden ZB Commodore Supercar, in turn based on a road car which is in effect a rebadged Insignia. Twin-turbo V6 (as was originally intended for the Commodore) could make it a cross between the Atenza and GT-R Nismo GT3 in concept and performance.

Gr.2:
Astra V8 Coupe OPC Team Phoenix '03 - Though of course Gr. 2 is not part of Manufacturers, I couldn't resist the idea of including an early-2000s DTM machine in this category. We all know about the Calibra and '00 Team Phoenix Astra, but what about this? An updated version of the beloved Astra that happens to be the winner of the 2003 Nürburgring 24 Hour, a rare highlight among Opel's steady decline in top-tier German touring car racing. Given we already have two distinct variants of the M6 GT3, and the '10 DBR9 wears an adaptation of the works '08 Gulf livery, perhaps a second version with an alternative '00-style livery and Opel/Vauxhall branding wouldn't be out of the question, either.

 

[AMPMROCKETFANN]

We still need to have Bentley in this game. The GT3 car is a glaring omission to an otherwise diverse range of Group 3 cars. In addition, the Continental could be modified as a Group 4 car to fit in that class too. We also need a Group 4 Camaro because it's an actual thing in GT4. Then there's the issue of Bugatti. There's only 2 models which could be modified as Group 3 cars, and both have massive quad turbo W16's - an engine not used in any GT3 car. Then again, the removal of the 4 wheel drive system would shave off a lot of weight (let's just presume it takes 200 KG off the Group 4 Veyron, which would make the Group 3 variation weigh about 1440 KG). And we aren't done with the weight savings yet. The entire dash will be stripped and the interior will just have some roll bars and one seat. Removing all the luxury items would probably remove about 100 KG, making the car weigh 1340 KG. Which would be ideal for Group 3. Whether it's the Chiron or the Veyron I don't care; they're quite similar. Power would definitely be above 570 HP.

I so want a Camaro GT4. And I want it to replace the Corvette GR.4, which doesn't exist IRL. Also, how about some 80's/90's IMSA/Trans Am cars in Gr.2?

The RUF Gr.4 car could be the RGT-8.
View attachment 872410
Pontiac had the GTO.R. That could be Gr.3 with the Monaro styled GTO as a Gr.4 spec.
View attachment 872411
View attachment 872413

I want both.

Though I wasn't too disappointed not to see Opel/Vauxhall in GT Sport on launch, I've been thinking on and off about how they would fit into the Manufacturers Series and what sort of vehicles could be represented in the game's main racing categories. Logically, I can see the following options:

Gr.4:
Astra TCR '16 - An actual front-wheel drive touring car, possibly along with a few other TCRs like the VW Golf, Honda Civic, Hyundai i30, etc.



Astra Gr.4 - Failing that, there's also the opportunity to create a fantasy FWD Gr.4 car based on the BTCC racer developed by Power Maxed Racing.

View attachment 918293

Gr.3:
Insignia Gr.3 - What inspired me to post this after watching an Australian Supercars e-series race this morning. Essentially based on the Holden ZB Commodore Supercar, in turn based on a road car which is in effect a rebadged Insignia. Twin-turbo V6 (as was originally intended for the Commodore) could make it a cross between the Atenza and GT-R Nismo GT3 in concept and performance.

Gr.2:
Astra V8 Coupe OPC Team Phoenix '03 - Though of course Gr. 2 is not part of Manufacturers, I couldn't resist the idea of including an early-2000s DTM machine in this category. We all know about the Calibra and '00 Team Phoenix Astra, but what about this? An updated version of the beloved Astra that happens to be the winner of the 2003 Nürburgring 24 Hour, a rare highlight among Opel's steady decline in top-tier German touring car racing. Given we already have two distinct variants of the M6 GT3, and the '10 DBR9 wears an adaptation of the works '08 Gulf livery, perhaps a second version with an alternative '00-style livery and Opel/Vauxhall branding wouldn't be out of the question, either.

Both of these so bad. Also add in a VT-Vf Commodore Supercar as well as its Falcon variants.

 

[VulcanSpirit]

Both of these so bad. Also add in a VT-Vf Commodore Supercar as well as its Falcon variants.

To date, the current BTCC Astra has had four wins and 16 podiums since its debut in 2017, so it can't be considered an objectively terrible base for a Gr.4 vehicle. Power outputs for each are about 330 (TCR) or 350+bhp (BTCC, according to official NGTC specs) so it shouldn't be impossible for a Gr.4 Astra to be matched with other front-wheel drive cars from that category (e.g. TT Cup, regular Megane Gr.4).

 

[MIE1992]

I can't remember, where would cars from the BTCC, WTCC, and DTMeisterschaft (e.g. the 190E Evo II) fit into the classes? I think the former two could go into Gr.4, and I'm not sure about the last one. I know DTMasters cars would likely go into Gr.2. And if I remember correctly, you think V8 Supercars would fit into Gr.3, right?

 

[meekrab]

Pontiac had the GTO.R. That could be Gr.3 with the Monaro styled GTO as a Gr.4 spec.
View attachment 872411

The GTO.R was much closer in performance to a Gr.4 than a Gr.3 car, seeing as it was basically a stock LS2 dropped into a tube frame chassis. It raced against things like the 911 GT3 Cup, not the RSR.

 

[VulcanSpirit]

I can't remember, where would cars from the BTCC, WTCC, and DTMeisterschaft (e.g. the 190E Evo II) fit into the classes? I think the former two could go into Gr.4, and I'm not sure about the last one. I know DTMasters cars would likely go into Gr.2. And if I remember correctly, you think V8 Supercars would fit into Gr.3, right?

Chaz Mostert set a 2:03.7897 in his Mustang during qualifying for last year's Bathurst 1000, which would have at least guaranteed him a top 10 start in February's 12 Hour event alongside GT3 machinery. A few seconds off van Gisbergen's record in the 650S, but still a close match to the category which Gr.3 models itself on.

 

[MIE1992]

Chaz Mostert set a 2:03.7897 in his Mustang during qualifying for last year's Bathurst 1000, which would have at least guaranteed him a top 10 start in February's 12 Hour event alongside GT3 machinery. A few seconds off van Gisbergen's record in the 650S, but still a close match to the category which Gr.3 models itself on.

Cool. And what about BTCC/WTCC, as well as potentially the DTMeisterschaft?

 

[KosmoKazi]

Little off-topic, but related: I would absolutely LOVE if the new Corvette C8R would be added to the game as an alternative to the older C7R. (gimme the street version, too... pretty please?!). Maybe couple it with a GT4-spec Camaro, which has been launched since a few years now, too, as an alternative to the Corvette Gr4 (which is kind of tame compared to the C7R anyway...)

 

[VulcanSpirit]

Cool. And what about BTCC/WTCC, as well as potentially the DTMeisterschaft?

On Brands Hatch GP, for example, the outright qualifying record for a BTCC NGTC car is 1:30.537 by Brett Smith in an FK2 Honda Civic. During the same session, Senna Proctor set a 1:30.847 in his Power Maxed Astra.

As far as DTMeisterschaft/ITC is concerned, I found qualifying times for the 1996 Suzuka finale; the pole-sitting Alfa 155 of Christian Danner did a 2:02.737, a whopping 18 seconds slower than the current GT500 record of 1:44.319 set by Tomoki Nojiri in the 2018-spec NSX-GT.

 

[05XR8]

The GTO.R was much closer in performance to a Gr.4 than a Gr.3 car, seeing as it was basically a stock LS2 dropped into a tube frame chassis. It raced against things like the 911 GT3 Cup, not the RSR.

Thing about that, wasn't it racing against the M3 GTR? The look of the GTO.R and M3 GTR would fit GT3 spec. That's where I'm coming from. It's what PD would do. I know the Slophy should be more in the GR.3 category, but the weight of that car, is way less than most GT3 cars.

As for BTCC type cars, Project Cars 2 have original TC cars, converted to BTCC/TCR spec. Their Megane and A45 look BTCC ready. The A45 especially, looks like the real BTCC model.

 

[meekrab]

Thing about that, wasn't it racing against the M3 GTR? The look of the GTO.R and M3 GTR would fit GT3 spec. That's where I'm coming from. It's what PD would do. I know the Slophy should be more in the GR.3 category, but the weight of that car, is way less than most GT3 cars.

The GTO.R was built for Rolex Grand Am's GT category, which was slower than the GTS category that was roughly equivalent to today's GT3/LM GTE cars. They ended up dropping the GTS category because they were just as fast as the Daytona Prototypes at the time. The only data point I can find that we can compare to GTSport is a 2007 race at Laguna Seca that put the GT category around 1:29.5 which is nowhere near competitive with Gr3.

 

[MIE1992]

On Brands Hatch GP, for example, the outright qualifying record for a BTCC NGTC car is 1:30.537 by Brett Smith in an FK2 Honda Civic. During the same session, Senna Proctor set a 1:30.847 in his Power Maxed Astra.

As far as DTMeisterschaft/ITC is concerned, I found qualifying times for the 1996 Suzuka finale; the pole-sitting Alfa 155 of Christian Danner did a 2:02.737, a whopping 18 seconds slower than the current GT500 record of 1:44.319 set by Tomoki Nojiri in the 2018-spec NSX-GT.

So you’re saying cars from BTCC, WTCC, and DTMeisterschaft would all likely go into Gr.3, right? Would you still agree that the newer cars from DTMasters would likely go into Gr.2?

 

[VulcanSpirit]

So you’re saying cars from BTCC, WTCC, and DTMeisterschaft would all likely go into Gr.3, right? Would you still agree that the newer cars from DTMasters would likely go into Gr.2?

BTCC/WTCC into Gr.4, mid-1990s DTMasters/ITC possibly into Gr.3 based on the lap times available.